IDF Flotilla Incident Official Thread (5 Viewers)

[thongetsu]

Bro, these guys have got nothing on the Somali Pirates.

 

[Rothbard]

Ugh Neb

 

[gdkyeh]

i like the way you try (and fail) to paint the IDF - the most brutal, inhuman, terrorist-like army in the world - as being an army of peace.

How can you possibly insinuate that!? Hamas's charter clearly outlines that they want the extermination of isreal AND all jews and i quote "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews)"

How is israel a terrorist when Hamas specifically implies it's always been about destroying Israel, nothing less.

what other country is Israel trying to conquer from within? where in any of Israel's objectives does it talk about spreading Judaism throughout the world, as does the Muslim Brotherhood about Islam? where and when have Israelis organized civilian bombings and murders in train stations, airplanes, buses and restaurants in almost every country in the world, killing multi-thousands of innocent human beings?

Please explain, im open to ideas

 

[gdkyeh]

And another thing, your quote at the bottom reads:
Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? - by David Ben Gurion

By Gurion also said:
"We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs."
AND
"Terrorism benefits the Arabs, it may lay waste the Yishuv and shake Zionism. But to follow in the Arabs' footsteps and ape their deeds is to be blind to the gulf between us. Our aims and theirs run counter: methods calculated to further theirs, are ruinous to us."

If your going to use Gurion to formulate your argument, you have to look at all his opinions. Just some food for thought

 

[speak]

Gaza flotilla captain: Activists prepared attack against IDF raid - Haaretz Daily Newspaper
YouTube - Interview with Mehmut Tuval, Captain, Mavi Marmara

 

[mirakon]

Haaretz, a reliable source? Please tell me you're joking

 

[Levi Eshkol]

How can you possibly insinuate that!? Hamas's charter clearly outlines that they want the extermination of isreal AND all jews and i quote "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews)"

How is israel a terrorist when Hamas specifically implies it's always been about destroying Israel, nothing less.

what other country is Israel trying to conquer from within? where in any of Israel's objectives does it talk about spreading Judaism throughout the world, as does the Muslim Brotherhood about Islam? where and when have Israelis organized civilian bombings and murders in train stations, airplanes, buses and restaurants in almost every country in the world, killing multi-thousands of innocent human beings?

Please explain, im open to ideas

Pointing out the evils of Hamas does nothing to vindicate the evils of the IDF and Israeli Government. Hamas is not a government army - it is a fighting force born out of desperate people who struggle to live with their brutal occupation every day. Gaza is not a nation, rather, it is a piece of land occupied by Israel. Comparisons between Hamas and the IDF are therefore pointless. There are no parallels between the two.

Hamas's methods are inhumane. But these methods are a result of the desparation they face as a result of Israel. Terrorism is not a good thing - it's evil - but what else are the people of Gaza supposed to do? They have two options: Live in sub-human conditions, terrorised by the IDF on all sides who permit no exit, or they can fight for their freedom. The fight might be evil, but it considerably less so than permitting this gross violation of human rights within Gaza and the West Bank to continue.

Compare that to the IDF. The Goliath of the Mid-East with the greatest quality of life, most powerful army. In response to one Israeli death the IDF responds by killing ten more. In response to twenty Israeli deaths, the IDF responds by killing over 1000 Gazans. This is nothing new - it has been Israeli policy for decades.

I therefore think that the comparison of the IDF to a terrorist group is more apt than comparing Hamas to a terrorist group.

It's ironic that the same people who were locked in death camps and roultinley and inhumanely killed sixty or so years ago are now doing the same thing to another oppressed, ethnic group. It's ironic that in seeking to end the tyranny they suffered, that they stole land and imposed a new kind of tyranny on another group of people. They impose terror and wanton violence on the Arabs living in occupied lands to further their own agenda. Imposing terror - isn't that terrorism?

 

[Levi Eshkol]

Haaretz, a reliable source? Please tell me you're joking

Ha'aretz is actually not bad by comparison to other Israeli media. It's often very critical of the government and the IDF. In addition, it's fed information from the IDF and shows far less restraint than do Western media sources - it's therefore an excellent window into the Israeli government and IDF. It's well worth watching.

Still, I wouldn't quote it to prove a point because like I said, it is, like all Israeli media, fed information by the government and IDF. A point Tanya Reinhart made clear in her books.

 

[speak]

Haaretz, a reliable source? Please tell me you're joking

lol

 

[Levi Eshkol]

No he's right. As far as truth in the Middle East goes it's rubbish. As far as a window into Israel goes, it's the best we've got.

 

[Optimus Prime]

I wasn't trying to insinuate anything, you can clearly see it in the video.

 

[JonathanM]

How many mercenary 'activists' were killed by Israel? 9. How many innocent civilians did NATO kill in Afghanistan in same the week the flotilla incident occurred? Over 140.

I'm happy to argue over the semantics of the whole operation, but before you even consider that, you have to consider the huge hypocrisy and double standards of the world and the people in this thread. The huge attention Israel has received from this event has been indiscriminately dis-proportioned against it - this is a clear cut case of anti-Zionism overstepping the grey area of legitimate criticism, and stepping into anti-Semitism. When Israel is singled out for criticism over actions, such as boarding a vessel in international waters (legal by Israeli, US and UK maritime law, as well as such operations being accepted by the Palestinian Authority in prior agreements), whereas such actions from other nations would be deemed as allowed or inevitable.

And to all of you who feign horror at the loss of lives and cite how every life is important - the fact that you have the low statistics of those killed by Israel in your signatures and not those killed by NATO, the members of the Arab League, China, Burma and by the Sudanese government is just blatant hypocrisy which leads me to only two conclusions - get your eyes checked out or your brain replaced.

Israel is not dissuaded by this response from the world, it's just a continuation of the anti-Semitism (the double standards, delegitimisation and demonisation) which the Jews have survived and will continue to survive for over 2000 years.

 

[ibbi00]

Zionism = scum of the earth so opposing them isn't exactly hypocritical.
Again with the anti-semitism card... How can Arabs be anti-Semites if they're Semites themselves you dud... Don't even get me started on double standards. israel refusing to sign the NPT is hypocritical. israel offering to sell nuclear weapons to South Africa is hypocritical. 'Peaceful and brave IDF' hijacking a humanitarian aid ship and shooting its members from the back is hypocritical... "Well everyone else is killing civilians all over the world! Why can't we do it!?!" Is the dumbest argument I've ever heard.

 

[mirakon]

When Israel is singled out for criticism over actions, such as boarding a vessel in international waters (legal by Israeli, US and UK maritime law, as well as such operations being accepted by the Palestinian Authority in prior agreements), whereas such actions from other nations would be deemed as allowed or inevitable.

And to all of you who feign horror at the loss of lives and cite how every life is important - the fact that you have the low statistics of those killed by Israel in your signatures and not those killed by NATO, the members of the Arab League, China, Burma and by the Sudanese government is just blatant hypocrisy which leads me to only two conclusions - get your eyes checked out or your brain replaced.

Israel is not dissuaded by this response from the world, it's just a continuation of the anti-Semitism (the double standards, delegitimisation and demonisation) which the Jews have survived and will continue to survive for over 2000 years.

Ok, so by your logic I can propose a law for my own advantage at the expense of everyone else in the region that completely goes against international regulations and basic human morality and then use this as justification as the right thing to do?

Furthermore, if you actually watch the news, human rights atrocities round the globe are often brought to attention e.g. China during the Olympic games, the conflict in Dafur gets extensive coverage from the BBC etc. but more emphasis is placed on Israel's actions, not because of anti-Semitism, but because unlike the other nations, they're a developed nation that prides themselves on being 'the good guys' of the Middle East and on their track records of human rights. Also, they have been an ally of Australia, US and UK for a long time, and if they commit human rights atrocities, it becomes of direct relevance to us.

 

[Levi Eshkol]

The Israelite there does himself absolutely no favours by drawing the anti-Semite card. Nobody believes such charges and all he does is discredits the Israelis.

The people of Israel could be Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or Taoist and the result would still be the same: Outrage. Similar to the outrage displayed by us when (like Mirakon said) we heard about Darfur, China's execution of a retarded man, Russia's brutal quashing of the Chechnyan's or indeed, in the pointless slaughter of civillians by NATO. Is it a greater outrage with Israel? Possibly - almost certainly. But it doesn't make the case against Israel any less strong, rather, it only makes the case that identical levels of outrage should be directed against NATO, Russia, China, etc.

The incident is not evaluated by us in isolation, as you want it to be, but it is framed against a long history of discrimination, brutality and unrestrained violent repraisal by Israel against its enemies. The reason why we're so outraged by this incident is because a) it was a horrible and violent, pointless loss of life; b) it's one in a series of many horrible, violent and pointless incidents directly caused by the actions of the IDF. Think Gaza, Lebanon, and the "defense" against the various Intifada's. Think the building of that apartheid wall within Palestinian territory, think about "Jew-only" roads in the West Bank, think about the illegal settlements, think about the pumping of water from the Jordan River. Israel's history and human rights record is abhorrent, and this flotilla incident was one in a series of incidents. It was perhaps the last straw as far as Western governments and media were concerned, and it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.

Israel is not dissuaded by this response from the world

That's the problem.

Lastly, stop making up statistics. I know it doesn't make NATO's case any more attractive but it's doubtful that 140 is an accurate number.
Civilian casualties of the War in Afghanistan (2001–present) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BigBoyJames 007]

All of Israel must be pushed into the Mediterranean. Many claim that there are innocent civilians In Israel however one must ask, if I were to steal your watch and give it to person Y, and then you asked person Y for over 50 years to return the watch and they still don’t fucking give it back and know they are in possession of stolen property, it is a natural right to withdraw from the socialist pacifist ideology and kill person Y and get that fucking watch back. In our case, Israeli citizens are collectively person Y who have Palestinians land.

Send me the link to hamas and Hezbollah, Their values are more inline with the principles of freedom than Israeli citizens and the Israeli government. The death of every Israeli citizen just gets us closer to obtaining the homeland and true property owners of the land.

Fuck Israel, god bless freedom, god bless the Palestinian resilience.

 

[BigBoyJames 007]

JonathanM is a clear Zionist scum. Zionism is anti freedom, it wears the cloak of freedom under the disguise of protecting the universal brotherhood of the Jewish race. But at what cost? At the cost of innocent Palestinians and Arabs, fuck this Resistance, this is not freedom, The Palestinian has lost its natural right to choose the course of their life and their actions, the Jew wishes to control the environment that the Palo lives in, denying him of the right to food, shelter and water. If this is the by product of Jewish liberation then today I call for the annihilation of this state, along with all of its citizens, because such freedom at the expense of another group of people is no freedom at all.


Death to Israel is the birth of Palestinian Liberation.

 

[Richard Gilmore]

The Israelite there does himself absolutely no favours by drawing the anti-Semite card. Nobody believes such charges and all he does is discredits the Israelis.

The people of Israel could be Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or Taoist and the result would still be the same: Outrage. Similar to the outrage displayed by us when (like Mirakon said) we heard about Darfur, China's execution of a retarded man, Russia's brutal quashing of the Chechnyan's or indeed, in the pointless slaughter of civillians by NATO. Is it a greater outrage with Israel? Possibly - almost certainly. But it doesn't make the case against Israel any less strong, rather, it only makes the case that identical levels of outrage should be directed against NATO, Russia, China, etc.

The incident is not evaluated by us in isolation, as you want it to be, but it is framed against a long history of discrimination, brutality and unrestrained violent repraisal by Israel against its enemies. The reason why we're so outraged by this incident is because a) it was a horrible and violent, pointless loss of life; b) it's one in a series of many horrible, violent and pointless incidents directly caused by the actions of the IDF. Think Gaza, Lebanon, and the "defense" against the various Intifada's. Think the building of that apartheid wall within Palestinian territory, think about "Jew-only" roads in the West Bank, think about the illegal settlements, think about the pumping of water from the Jordan River. Israel's history and human rights record is abhorrent, and this flotilla incident was one in a series of incidents. It was perhaps the last straw as far as Western governments and media were concerned, and it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.



That's the problem.

Lastly, stop making up statistics. I know it doesn't make NATO's case any more attractive but it's doubtful that 140 is an accurate number.
Civilian casualties of the War in Afghanistan (2001–present) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a build up of little things like this.

M., a Haaretz reader from Zichron Yaakov, was disturbed by reports about the manner in which Palestinian children are arrested in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They are being detained held in the middle of the night, held in conditions of fear and pain before their interrogations, and then finally interrogated without the presence of their parents or a lawyer.


On March 14, M. wrote the following to attorney Yuri Gai-Ron, the head of the Israel Bar Association: "I am appealing to you to use all of your authority to intervene and put an end to the abusive behavior and violation of the law with regard to children and youths... Any decent citizen silent - and even more so the body you have headed over the past few years - cannot remain silent in the face of the frivolity with which children are kept in detention, interrogated and even condemned."



On April 22, attorney Linda Shafir, the director general of the bar association, sent a letter to Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein and State Prosecutor Moshe Lador. Copies were also sent to Defense Minister Ehud Barak, the commander of the Israel Defense Forces in the West Bank (whose name she did not mention ), and the Military Advocate General Avichai Mendelblit, as well as to M.



Among other things, Shafir wrote: "In her appeal, Ms. M. mentions that Palestinian children and youngsters from areas of the West Bank are detained under inappropriate circumstances and are held in inappropriate conditions.



It goes without saying that the Israel Bar Association considers the holding of detainees in appropriate conditions to be of supreme importance, from both the legal point of view and on the level of human rights. I should be grateful if the appeal is transferred to all concerned parties, so that possible means of dealing with the situation are examined with a view to eradicating the phenomenon."



Broken camera


Another Palestinian detainee, though not a child, is Imad Bornat of Bil'in, a photographer and film director. He was arrested in October 2006 by Border Policemen while photographing the weekly demonstration against the separation fence in his village. After being detained for 21 days, he was then kept under house arrest outside his village for a month and a half. Bornat's trial, during which he was accused of throwing stones and attacking Border Policemen, dragged on for some three years.



This became a routine method of deterring demonstrators in the villages fighting against the separation fence - beatings and arrests, nighttime raids, and indictments based on dubious testimonies.



In April 2009, Bornat was acquitted of all the charges; no trace of anything. He never hit anyone, he never threw any stones. But despite his acquittal, from the police perspective the criminal file remains open, alongside a police order forbidding him to enter Israel (which is five kilometers from his village ). When he required medical treatment, he received some limited exit permits only thanks to the intervention of his lawyer, Gabi Lasky.



Last month Bornat was invited to participate in an event in Tel Aviv organized by CoPro, an Israeli foundation for marketing documentary films. They planned to screen part of the movie he and his partner, Israeli cinematographer Guy Davidi, are busy editing - "Five Broken Cameras." Haaretz published a short item reporting that Bornat had been prevented from participating in the event.



On the same day, May 26, the Civil Administration issued him a permit in a particularly accelerated move, despite the police's position. His file remains open, however, in the police computers. Lasky was told last week that she must send the court verdict, evincing Bornat's acquittal, to the Binyamin police station, which she has already done at least four times.



'A different aspect of Israel'


On May 27, yours truly received a letter from Amir Merom, the spokesman for the Sheba Medical Center at Tel Hashomer, in which he wrote: "Your efforts on behalf of upholding human rights, which have been a guiding principle of your work as a journalist over the years, are not supposed to hold back from your readers at Haaretz journalistic facts which are not in line with one organized doctrine or another.



"We read your May 26 article about the photographer from Bil'in, and were left with the impression that your attempt to present the saga vis-a-vis the military authorities and the police was paramount, from your point of view, to the need to add objective factual parameters that would widen the scope of the story for the reader's benefit and offer a broader spectrum of reference on an already loaded subject.



"Besides the lengthy paragraphs describing, in minute detail, the conduct between the various bodies - which attempt to present Israel in an unflattering light - you mentioned in one general sentence that 'in November 2008, Bornat was seriously injured in a car accident and required medical treatment in Israel.'



It is most surprising to me that you chose so strange a way to mention the fact that the patient arrived on the threshold of death at Sheba Medical Center, the leading government hospital in the State of Israel, and that his life was saved thanks to the dedicated treatment he received there...


"In addition, I am certain that your readers, who possess varied points of view, will be glad to be exposed to a different aspect of Israel from that described in your article - an aspect of love for human beings, of humanity and compassion.



"As the spokesman for a hospital where Arabs, Jews and members of all faiths are treated alongside one another with the same degree of professionalism and love, I would expect that you would be wise enough to use the abovementioned facts in your upcoming articles on the subject."



Bornat paid for his hospital treatment.



Waiting for a letter


No reader wrote a letter about the fate of Adib Abu Rahma - a resident of the same village as Bornat, a regular participant in the demonstrations against the separation fence, a 40-year-old taxi driver and a father of nine. He was arrested on July 10, 2009 on the basis of a photograph showing him holding an onion, to be used against tear gas, which a prosecution witness somehow interpreted as a megaphone.



On the basis of incriminations conducted with minors from Bil'in, who had been arrested in the dark of night and held in frightening circumstances, Abu Rahma was charged with incitement, disturbing the public order and entering a military area. Many of the "facts" illicited through these interrogations later turned out to be false.



Abu Rahma has been in jail for 333 days already. on Sunday a military judge found him guilty, as was expected.

Amira Hass / Beatings, arrests, nighttime raids and dubious indictments - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

 

[JonathanM]

The people of Israel could be Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or Taoist and the result would still be the same: Outrage. Similar to the outrage displayed by us when (like Mirakon said) we heard about Darfur, China's execution of a retarded man, Russia's brutal quashing of the Chechnyan's or indeed, in the pointless slaughter of civillians by NATO. Is it a greater outrage with Israel? Possibly - almost certainly. But it doesn't make the case against Israel any less strong, rather, it only makes the case that identical levels of outrage should be directed against NATO, Russia, China, etc.

That's complete nonsense. First and foremost, those who are against Israel often cite the issue of "proportion" and how statistics attained from conflicts such as Cast Lead are often disproportionate in favor of the Israelis. And here you're trying to compare the death of 9 mercenaries with Russia's quashing of Checnya and the "pointless slaughter of civilians by NATO." How is that proportionate? Even if you compare the Palestinian deaths over the past decade that isn't proportionate.

Yes, you point out that the outrage over this event could be construed as the continuation of Israeli actions against the Palestinians, but still, the plight of the Palestinians being compared with the suffering of the Jews in the Holocaust and the blacks under South African Apartheid and the suffering of other peoples like those in China and Sudan is something I find grievously offensive. The Palestinians enjoy a great quality of life under the Israelis and before you dispute this - only today I heard a lecture from Khaled Abu Toameh, a Palestinian/Israeli-Arab who was once a journalist for the PLO and now writes for Israeli and Palestinian papers. He said that he and most Israeli-Arabs are greatful to live under Israeli rule and that as a journalist, it would be professional suicide to work under PA rule, that under the free Israeli media he is completely free to criticise whatever and whomever he wishes without fear of backlash. To paraphrase him, he said if he wrote a piece criticising Hamas in Gaza or the PA in the West Bank, it would not be safe to walk the street, but when he writes pieces criticising Israel, as he regularly does, he does not fear for his safety walking the streets of Jerusalem.

I mean the very use of the term apartheid is by definition incorrect - apartheid refers to a minority ruling over a majority as well as the use of legal segregation laws. Well here's a news flash - there's a majority of Jews in Israel. And here's another one - Israeli Arabs are given full and equal rights - they're even given more rights, such as not having forced conscription, joining the army is voluntary for them. I remind you that there are 11 Israeli-Arabs in the 120 seat Israeli Parliament, that's not including the Israeli members in the far left who also have strong Israeli-Arab voter bases. Yes, there is racism in Israel, but there is racism all over the world, and singling out Israel for it is a blatant double standard.

Take Israel Apartheid Week, that is the best example. It should be Middle East Apartheid Week. Because forget Israel, the best examples you'll find of Apartheid are in the countries surrounding Israel.

http://www.standwithus.com/online_booklets/Apartheid/Apartheid.pdf

Lastly, stop making up statistics. I know it doesn't make NATO's case any more attractive but it's doubtful that 140 is an accurate number.
Civilian casualties of the War in Afghanistan (2001–present) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fact that you think I'm making these statistics up shows how true the point I'm making is. These deaths happened in the same week as the flotilla and you didn't hear a thing about it, because the world was too focused on beating up the Jewish State. In the same year as Cast Lead, when over 1400 Palestinians (including militants) were killed by the Israelis, over twice that number of purely civilians were killed just in Afghanistan and yet most of the world did not blink an eye at this. You try to point out that Israel prides itself on being a moral nation, well I'm pretty sure America does as well. Civilians are being murdered, raped and tortured daily in Sudan and all the people in this thread can cite is some BBC coverage? Where's the front page coverage that Israel is receiving?

Afghan Insurgency Upsurges as over 140 Killed in 1 Week

 

[ibbi00]

The Palestinians enjoy a great quality of life under the Israelis and before you dispute this - only today I heard a lecture from Khaled Abu Toameh, a Palestinian/Israeli-Arab who was once a journalist for the PLO and now writes for Israeli and Palestinian papers. He said that he and most Israeli-Arabs are greatful to live under Israeli rule and that as a journalist, it would be professional suicide to work under PA rule, that under the free Israeli media he is completely free to criticise whatever and whomever he wishes without fear of backlash. To paraphrase him, he said if he wrote a piece criticising Hamas in Gaza or the PA in the West Bank, it would not be safe to walk the street, but when he writes pieces criticising Israel, as he regularly does, he does not fear for his safety walking the streets of Jerusalem.

What about MK Hanin Zuabi?

The fact that you think I'm making these statistics up shows how true the point I'm making is. These deaths happened in the same week as the flotilla and you didn't hear a thing about it, because the world was too focused on beating up the Jewish State. In the same year as Cast Lead, when over 1400 Palestinians (including militants) were killed by the Israelis, over twice that number of purely civilians were killed just in Afghanistan and yet most of the world did not blink an eye at this. You try to point out that Israel prides itself on being a moral nation, well I'm pretty sure America does as well. Civilians are being murdered, raped and tortured daily in Sudan and all the people in this thread can cite is some BBC coverage? Where's the front page coverage that Israel is receiving?

Zionism = scum of the earth so opposing them isn't exactly hypocritical.
Again with the anti-semitism card... How can Arabs be anti-Semites if they're Semites themselves you dud... Don't even get me started on double standards. israel refusing to sign the NPT is hypocritical. israel offering to sell nuclear weapons to South Africa is hypocritical. 'Peaceful and brave IDF' hijacking a humanitarian aid ship and shooting its members from the back is hypocritical... "Well everyone else is killing civilians all over the world! Why can't we do it!?!" Is the dumbest argument I've ever heard.