Aganist abortion (4 Viewers)

[katie tully]

last i knew it they werent allowed to have kids

False. They're not "not allowed" to have kids. Generally what happens is they're sterile from both (which is the case with 99.99% of Down Syndrome males) or especially in cases of severe Down Syndrome, they often have hysterectomies to stop menstruation (or less radical they have chemical contraceptives).

Not so much to do with having babies, but more to do with trying to manage someone like that if they menstruate every month.

 

[Optimus Prime]

why do they all look the same?

 

[mes ami]

False. They're not "not allowed" to have kids. Generally what happens is they're sterile from both (which is the case with 99.99% of Down Syndrome males) or especially in cases of severe Down Syndrome, they often have hysterectomies to stop menstruation (or less radical they have chemical contraceptives).

Not so much to do with having babies, but more to do with trying to manage someone like that if they menstruate every month.

oh gosh its like full time caring and waiting for them to die. children for life. gosh
yeah some teacher told us that they weren't allowed to in school.

 

[katie tully]

Teachers don't know shit.

 

[katie tully]

why do they all look the same?

Is that a serious question?

 

[Optimus Prime]

Do they all have a common ancestor?

 

[Chemical Ali]

i remember in year 9 science we asked the teacher if down syndrome gave people magic powers n she spacked it at us ^__^

 

[tommykins]

Is that a serious question?

i'm actually quite curious to know if you don't mind explaining katie

 

[katie tully]

i'm actually quite curious to know if you don't mind explaining katie

It's just because they do. Instead of two copies of chromosome 21, they have three copies of chromosome 21 in every cell and basically it just causes the characteristic facial appearances.

For whatever reason, not entire sure which genes are contained on chromosome 21 but what is amazing about science is that with most of the other chromosomes, this same mutation (i.e three copies) usually results in spontaneous abortion in utero.

I've done a quick search to find something that makes it easy to explain, but the simplest way I can put it is that the extra copies of chromosome 21 in every cell means you have an extra set of whatever genes are on chromosome 21 in every cell and it just fucks shit up.

 

[BradCube]

My disagreement with your essay stems from the premise you fail to elaborate on here:

"Fortunately, it seems that most people agree that human beings have intrinsic value or worth (whether objective or otherwise), at least to some degree."

I certainly agree that an adult human has intrinsic value. However what you've failed to explore is why do people believe this. Why do you think this is?

...

I think the rational response is, the higher intrinsic worth granted to humans, comes from their demonstrated higher qualities. A human only has more value than any other animal due to it's superior abilities and cognition.

Why we are able to recognize that human beings have intrinsic value is not of great importance to me in this paper. All that mattered was that one was able to recognize this value and then look at whom it should be extended to.

If we take your explanation for intrinsic value then I feel it leads us to some very award conclusions. Namely, if we have intrinsic value because of our abilities and cognition then both new born babies and disabled persons will have less intrinsic value than other human persons. But surely this cannot be true. The very reason we pursue, care and love for disabled persons is because they have just as much intrinsic value as any one else. It is their being human that provides them with this intrinsic value - not their abilities. This is the same principle in caring for the elderly and the oppressed in our societies (who lack the ability to get themselves out of dire circumstances) - ie, the homeless, those in sexual slavery and forced child labor etc.

 

[tommykins]

It's just because they do. Instead of two copies of chromosome 21, they have three copies of chromosome 21 in every cell and basically it just causes the characteristic facial appearances.

For whatever reason, not entire sure which genes are contained on chromosome 21 but what is amazing about science is that with most of the other chromosomes, this same mutation (i.e three copies) usually results in spontaneous abortion in utero.

I've done a quick search to find something that makes it easy to explain, but the simplest way I can put it is that the extra copies of chromosome 21 in every cell means you have an extra set of whatever genes are on chromosome 21 in every cell and it just fucks shit up.

Ahhh ok thanks for that, i guess this extra chromosome adds the feature of smaller eyes and indented face structure whereas the other 'normal' chromosomes' function as normal in terms of height/hair colour etc.

 

[mes ami]

Why we are able to recognize that human beings have intrinsic value is not of great importance to me in this paper. All that mattered was that one was able to recognize this value and then look at whom it should be extended to.

If we take your explanation for intrinsic value then I feel it leads us to some very award conclusions. Namely, if we have intrinsic value because of our abilities and cognition then both new born babies and disabled persons will have less intrinsic value than other human persons. But surely this cannot be true. The very reason we pursue, care and love for disabled persons is because they have just as much intrinsic value as any one else. It is there being human that provides them with this intrinsic value - not their abilities. This is the same principle in caring for the elderly and the oppressed in our societies (who lack the ability to get themselves out of dire circumstances) - ie, the homeless, those in sexual slavery and forced child labor etc.

Go fuck off and preside over a christian commune that happily accepts your pro ban abortion beliefs. rule over them. stay the fuck out of our democracy you freedom hating cuntface.

 

[BradCube]

This whole post is utter shit. You believe in this retarded 'pro-life' because you are a Christian, not because you've received an objective education on the topic. You cannot present a properly informed position on this topic if you speak from an active/faithful Christian background. All you had to say was "I'm a Christian" and everyone would already know what you were going to write.

Did you read the paper?

If I have successfully made a case for the pro-life position lacking any religious reasoning then how can it be that I hold this position because I am a christian?

Even if I did take on board the pro-life position just because I am a christian, this does nothing to undermine the truth of the arguments in the paper. This is because a belief can be true irrespective of how one came to hold such a belief. Genetic Fallacy

 

[mes ami]

some wild animals abort their fetuses. grief etc.
nature forgives.
Bruce effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Now fuck off

 

[Optimus Prime]

Huh? Disabled people do have less intrinsic value, I don't agree with you at all.

 

[katie tully]

Ahhh ok thanks for that, i guess this extra chromosome adds the feature of smaller eyes and indented face structure whereas the other 'normal' chromosomes' function as normal in terms of height/hair colour etc.

Well it's not that they function as normal per se, there are variations within Down Syndrome people according to their other genetic influences. It's just like some with Down Syndrome are high functioning and others are severely developmentally delayed. Some show all the physical characteristics associated with Down Syndrome and some only show a few. It's a lottery.

If you got a bunch of us together in a room, discounting race, if you made our eyes smaller, gave us wide set noses, inverted faces, small ears etc we'd all look much more similar than we do now. I don't think it's so much as they look the same, but that because they're drastically different they just all look similar.

But yeah you've got me with that, and truthful answer is that for everything we know about Down Syndrome there is a bucket load more we don't.

 

[BradCube]

Well I completley disagree with you on that one Optimus. I think it is abhorent to claim that disabled people aren't worth as much as others. Leaving that aside though, in accordance with the other examples mentioned above, would you extend this reasoning onto children and the elderly? That is to say, they also have less intrinsic value because they lack the same abilities of a grown adult?

 

[mes ami]

i think we should kill the elderly once they get to nursing home point. drain on society/economy.

 

[katie tully]

Well I completley disagree with you on that one Optimus. I think it is abhorent to claim that disabled people aren't worth as much as others. Leaving that aside though, in accordance with the other examples mentioned above, would you extend this reasoning onto children and the elderly? That is to say, they also have less intrinsic value because they lack the same abilities of a grown adult?

Well in this case:
1. The elderly have already contributed to society
2. The young have the potential to contribute to society
3. Disabled people will always be a burden on society, from birth to death

 

[BradCube]

i think we should kill the elderly once they get to nursing home point. drain on society/economy.

Is this serious?

I'm going to assume you are just trolling based on your other posts.