does it really 'test' your english skills? (1 Viewer)

[Trev]

i might be just a bit biased (i do 4u math, and only adv eng), but i see the major work as being completely stoopd. anyone could pull together a video or poem! i dont see the major work as being a test of your english capability, rather the content of the adv and ext english courses, if it were to include a HSC exam, then yes i would reconsider this thread unlike 4u maths that does have an exam - that does assess your math capability. please dont throw big words and tricky language at me please, i wont understand lol.
(ps. sorry if this thread seems a bit pointless)

 

[glitterfairy]

Depends on which way you look at it.

Is a big fat scary exam the only way to test if you've learn something?

ALL Eng Ext 2 students and teachers will tell you that the EE2 course is different from anything you've done before.

Any HSC "test", at the end of the day, really only measures how much you can memorise, the way you can "deduce" answers. EE2 on the other hand, "tests" how well you can create. If it had a "theory" component, like Visual Arts and Textiles, then yes, it would have an exam. However as much of this theory is covered in the Eng Adv and Eng Ext 1 subjects, it is not needed or wanted.

Yes, you could just throw together a fun movie or short story, but I dare you to write a good one that shows months of hard work. Think about any of your favourite books. It seems as if they could have been written in an afternoon, but they take weeks, months, even years to draft, edit, re-edit, re-work, re-edit again and finally polish to perfection.

Please don't knock what you don't know. You've obviously never slaved over the one thing for an entire year (or close to), so you have no idea what it's like. I would never say that it is harder or easier, merely different. And different does NOT mean easier.

If you do not believe that we demonstrate out knowledge and skills in our major works, please, read the BOS Young Writer's Showcase and tell me if you think all of the works in there are "stupid" or a waste of time. Then, I dare you to try and compose one yourself.

 

[goldendawn]

Mathematics and syllogistic subjects are comparatively easier than subjects requiring abstract thought. The subjects proven to develop higher level thinking are not mathematical. Rather, they are the humanities subjects - including English at the compositional level. The people who do extension 2 express their ideas, which they have researched, and laboured with. Composing a major work is more than adding 2 and 2. It challenges you more holistically. It required you to engage with what you are doing emotionally and intellectually. Thus, the completion of a major work is a triumph on a number of levels.

Anyone can arrive at the answer to a maths' problem, because the answer already exists. In composing a major work, you have to form both the question and the answer. You don't get good marks for writing slop, and most of the people who do EE2 don't write slop because they are doing what they love.

 

[glitterfairy]

Furthermore (I'm on a roll now)

EE2 provides people such as myself to explore their own writing/film making skills with few restrictions. ANYONE can learn a formula over the course of time - some easier than others - but not everyone can write a good, creative and unique story. For those of us that can, here is an opportunity to use our skills, to explore our own boundaries and learn things on a very personal level.

EE2 is a different journey for everyone. Because everyone works on their own MW, and since no two MW's are the same, we cannot be "tested" as a whole. We do not need a test with multiple choice and long-responses because our major work is our "test".

You would be suprised at how many people have dropped EE2 because they cannot handle it. There is no-one to motivate or drive us on except for ourselves, and *gasp* there are no study guides. No-one can tell us what to do or how to do it - we have to learn and do all of it ourselves, and THIS is how our major work reflects what we learn.

From an entire year of researching, drafting, writing or filming, you learn so much about your medium and the way you approach genres. It's a hands-on experience. The "test", or challenge, as I say, is to use all of this to form something new. Your major work, your baby, your composition.

It is a different "test", but still a test nonetheless.

 

[goldendawn]

Hehe, this is the wrong part of BoS to bandy around the opinion that Major Works are "totally stoopd", Trev. I see the major work as greater than an exam. It's especially good for those who suffer from exam anxiety. It is a more realistic look at what someone can do.

 

[glitterfairy]

I'd just like to thank Marcus for saying in several sentences what I've attempted to say in two posts. Well done.

*applauds Marcus*

 

[jhakka]

i might be just a bit biased (i do 4u math, and only adv eng), but i see the major work as being completely stoopd. anyone could pull together a video or poem! i dont see the major work as being a test of your english capability, rather the content of the adv and ext english courses, if it were to include a HSC exam, then yes i would reconsider this thread unlike 4u maths that does have an exam - that does assess your math capability. please dont throw big words and tricky language at me please, i wont understand lol.
(ps. sorry if this thread seems a bit pointless)

I would like to state that if we were less diplomatic in this forum, you'd be getting a lot of "Fuck you" responses in this thread. It's not a good idea to go into a forum dedicated to a subject that people are truly passionate about and say "Well, there's no test so it's stupid."

Essentially, this reply is a great big "Fuck you" because you've come among a group of people who, for the most part, have worked their arses off on something that they truly care about.

The major work is not only a test of your creative capacity, but also how your own ideas are expressed in an extended response. It is a test of originality, creativity and the ability to manipulate language to suit a purpose. As stated above, anyone can learn mathematical rules if they are given enough time.

The major work, if anything, is a fair form of assessment and is a true reflection of skill. It is not based on a single three hour period (excluding internal assessments), where simply blanking out will screw you over. This is almost a year of work that should be worked on almost to perfection, or at least as close as a HSC student can get to it.

In addition, we are responsible for everything in this course. We can't blame the teacher for not teaching us. We can't say we failed because we were sick. It's all our problem because we have almost a year to work on it. We have to gather the information, analyse it and use it appropriately in order to get the marks. We have to have skill, originality and flair to compose our works, and we have to continually work on it until we get something that is even remotely presentable as a major work.

Most of the people who do this course go through at least three drafts, while some completely change their direction, meaning they must do everything all over again. This course is extremely personal, and is a lot more than just writing a story. We have to justify every decision we make for our major works in our assessments: the proposal, viva voce and report (internal) and the reflection statement (external).

I worked my arse off for almost a year on my Major Work. I went through three drafts, and I spent hours every week trying to write it or improve it.

So all I have to say is "fuck you." Don't come into a forum where people have worked for a year on something they are passionate about and say its stupid. Bag English out in the Maths forum as much as you want, for all I care. I don't give a shit. Just don't think you have the right to come in here and say that we have wasted a whole year when you have no idea of how much work this course is.

Don't think that you are better than us, or that we have taken an easy path because we don't have an exam. When you can come up with something that surpasses every Major Work in this forum, then perhaps I'll take this less personally. But you haven't, I doubt you can and I will take offence at your suggesting that the best academic decision of my life was a waste of time.

 

[shellybelly]

hey just a quick one.. when we will know how we went in our ext2 major works? i know that all the marking and stuff is done - do we have to wait until the hsc results come out??? or do we get feedback before then?

 

[jhakka]

We get no personal feedback, and we get our marks when we get the rest of our results.

 

[glitterfairy]

Damn my inability to give out rep points.

Justin also gets a smacking big round of appluase.

 

[goldendawn]

And after Justin made his post, the universe smiled...
woohoo

 

[hotcocoababe]

Oh wow, I'm so VERY impressed with Marcus', Lynn's and Justin's speeches!!!

You guys ROCK and I fully support everything you put forward.

Although I also noticed that it seems you have scared the poor thing off - thing being 'Trev' - with your nastily exauberant use of the english language to argue your cases.

Well DONE!

*Amber hands around lollies and chocolate to all*

 

[minushuman]

oooh, conflict And to answer the original question posed, yes english extension 2 does really "test" your english skills (ability to use alliteration, follow conventions and subverting when necessary), but it also tests your creativity and ability to articulate ideas and concepts in a variety of expressive forms. I will be *officially* doing english and maths ext 2 as soon as the lazy ass teachers get there acts together, but have already started a little bit of both.

Now for the controversy, I don't see maths ext 2 and english ext 2 being that much different. I find it hard to believe that English ext 2 is solely a measure of someones personal creativity and ideas when we are influenced by everything we have seen, read or heard in society. Maths ext 2 takes a bit of a shift away from the normal crap learned in 2unit and general, it does require a higher level of thinking, hell if it was just formula based then anyone with a half arsed ability to memorise things would be able to do it.

Ext 2 maths isn't an easy black and white subject, yes there is a wrong answer and a right answer (same way there is a right and a wrong answer to an english question, the only difference is that only the author [gah, composer] knows the truth) but the path (or journey, whichever floats your boat) taken to arrive there is a largely grey area. By ext 2 time it's no longer just use formula x, followed by formula y to find the value of p.

English ext 2 is pretty much the only thing i'm looking forward too next year, I love to express myself *hugs his guitar* and I love to write.

Goldendawn I know on the surface it may seem that English and its extensions are a lot harder then things such as maths which, as you put it, are generally categorised as "syllogistic" subjects, but take a harder look at english and tell me if it does not take the same premise - premise - conclusion form as logic that maths does. Ever written an essay? Ever followed the P.E.E (hehe) model of writing? Point, example, explain is a simple formula, and an effective one at that, which follows a well established (and logical) form of argument in the exact same way which mathematical Induction is done.

This is further enforced by how the two subjects are marked. It is growing increasingly less important that you arrive to the "correct" answer in mathematics, and it is near unimportant what conclusion you arrive to in english. What counts, and what markers reward, is how you got to that conclusion. In english you have to support your conclusion with facts and deductions (you gain marks according to the amount of supporting arguments you use) from a set text and in maths you get the bulk of your marks from the process of "working out" you followed.

I neither think maths ext 2 or english ext 2 is the harder subject, yes it takes more creativity to succeed in english but you are still following set ways of writing, formatting and typical genre conventions in an attempt to explore concepts which have no doubt been explored countless times before since the dawn of man. Don't get me wrong, i'm all for ext 2 english, just trying to add a little bit of intelligent defence for maths ext 2. After reading the BoS young writers showcase thing I nearly vomitted, I found it hard to accept that all of them were writing with the right intentions (no I don't think that putting lots of word together in an unintelligble merry-go-round of look-at-me-im-original-loo-t-e-m-igingal-oringal-loo-me-look-at-look-at-me-im original spining twirling spinning always, is explorative or profound. i also dont belive that ending every paragraph with non-sensical rubbish is something to be commended, bleep borp beppa boop boop!!!11one). Harsh maybe, but do you really believe that it is coming from their heart or is it simply a technique being employed to grab attention, and marks? The word "poser" definetly comes to mind.

Hehe, i'm a bit sour because I'm not allowed to do a video (or a critical response, english vs. maths), infact we have been limited to a short storey, but meh, I love short stories anyway. Don't hate me, and don't think that I am intentionally rubbishing peoples hard work, just questioning there motives and influences Look forward to the early mornings (2-4am) of story writing, don't know if I'll be able to part with it at the end though, hate letting people read me writing, its too personal.

edit: CBF'd reading through that again, if you find any spelling mistakes you may keep them

 

[glitterfairy]

Ah, you see?

I actually get what you're saying, minu, and agree with some of your points.

What I'd like to commend you mostly for, however, is your tact.

At the time we posted our replies, we were absolutely pissed off. If our replies seem rather biased it's because we don't like the idea of someone who's never done any of the things we've done, and coming onto our turf to tell us that we're stupid when they have no idea.

I'm sure I can speak for everyone when I say that opinion is freely and willingly encouraged. But we don't take too kindly to strangers walking in and insulting us.

 

[minushuman]

Yeah, I was about to send out a big "fuck you" after reading the first post, ext 2 english is sure as hell not an "easy" subject, but then again i dont think maths is as simple as remembering the formula's (which im absolutely shocking at). I just don't see that much of a difference in remembering the derivative rules then remembering the techniques employed in poetry and there generic effects and impacts which can be adapted to suit any question.

edit- just realised i need a display pic, i feel left out can't use a picture of myself because i wouldnt want to scare any small children that happen to be browsing around

 

[ameh]

i'm not sure if it ''tests'' your english skills but you are competing with the creme de la creme of skilled writers *or so im told* so i guess that competition/pressure/background in eng ext 1 would induce you to write better? or perhaps more creatively....? Test isnt the right word, maybe ''put on display''

 

[minushuman]

Well you gotta know your shit before you can go trying to write something that at the same time falls into a specific genre yet subverts its conventions in an appropriate way. Best marks get handed out to those who follow on from things learned in prelim, ext 1, normal english... ie. journey themed stories did well last year according to the marking report thing.

 

[ameh]

yeah my teacher commented on how you must relate your major work with stuff you learnt in english adv, ext basically your entire english course and it doesn't have to be in the strict confines of what you've already done.
Say you're doing crime fiction in eng ext now, that doesn't stop you from grabbing a text from another branch e.g. po-mo, most important is your story is consistent and the damned research and story is convincing/coherent enough

 

[minushuman]

That's really starting to shit me, people keep telling me its gotta relate to our course!!! NOOOO!!! Even that boring s.o.b who spoke about ext2 at the english thing in the city last week was saying it. I wanted to do ext 2 because it was something were i could be as creative as i wanted, i avioded all sorts of writing tasks/comps before this because it always went something like this "write a story about immigrants or aboriginals in which you a persecuted against but ultimately become king of the world". I spose the cocept of journey, genre of crime fiction and the concept of creation (prelim, donno if it counts) are prety wide and open to intrepetation but i dont like having to follow a guide, or be told what subject i have to write on. Bah and humbug.

 

[glitterfairy]

I have to admit, I never set out with the intention of writing a story to reflect what I'd learnt in Adv Eng or EE1. I just wrote a story - like teachers suggested - and did all the linknig afterwards - like teachers suggested.