Gay marriage in NSW/Australia (2 Viewers)

[mitchalp]

hey wat do u guys think?

 

[breaking]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

why not

 

[Xayma]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Yes. Although this discussion has been talked to death.

Ideally I would prefer marriage in the legal sense to be renamed to civil union, allow same sex couples to take out a civil union, and a marriage can be a church sanctioned ceremony, where the church can exclude divorcees or whoever else they want from being married.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

personally, i havent met a gay couple who pushes for marriage rights passionatley yet. And I know quite a few.

But if there are, why not, I don't particularly care. I don't feel that they would get the right though, knowing how uptight most of the world is.

Defacto rights seem to satisfy most of the homosexual people I know.

I forget townie's stance though... townie, mind if you clarify?

 

[ur_inner_child]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Yes. Although this discussion has been talked to death.

Ideally I would prefer marriage in the legal sense to be renamed to civil union, allow same sex couples to take out a civil union, and a marriage can be a church sanctioned ceremony, where the church can exclude divorcees or whoever else they want from being married.

i remember several, yes. and a memorable one which i think you and townie settled with that idea about the church etc

I wholeheartedly agree

 

[mr_brightside]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Ideally I would prefer marriage in the legal sense to be renamed to civil union, allow same sex couples to take out a civil union, and a marriage can be a church sanctioned ceremony, where the church can exclude divorcees or whoever else they want from being married.

Agreed.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Why is Townie so important?

---

I can't see why it shouldn't be alowed, but it should be remembered that only 4 countries in the world have implemented same sex unions...

townie i have known since year 8, and as well as this, had a history of participating in long heated discussions on homosexuality. It was just in passing, and mentioned again because he debated with someone and settled with what was similar to xayma's idea. And I remember someone saying 'this may be the first proper discussion in bos where both parties have ended a thread by agreeing"

it wasnt really intentional to mention him twice

 

[Xayma]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Why is Townie so important?

---

I can't see why it shouldn't be alowed, but it should be remembered that only 4 countries in the world have implemented same sex unions...

Actually it's alot more then that. Although the strength varies, I think only 4 or so have marriage but a number more have civil unions which is more or less the same, eg New Zealand, where differing sex couples can also have civil unions (and about 1/3 of the civil unions are from different sex couples).

 

[Rorix]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

I rehash my old post about the exact same topic which pointed out that true equality would be to abolish marriage, that the primary purpose of government encouragement of marriage is promoting families, and thus it is illogical to encourage gay marraige via financial assistance.

 

[Xayma]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Yes, but it is also illogical to provide financial assistance to married couples without children. Any marriage where the woman has reached menopause, one or both are infertile or they don't want kids is also illogical.

 

[Rorix]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Yes, but it is also illogical to provide financial assistance to married couples without children. Any marriage where the woman has reached menopause, one or both are infertile or they don't want kids is also illogical.

Rorix in 2004:

The primary concern of the State is providing for the next generation. To this end, the State encourages marriages with childbirth e.g. family tax benefits. That is the State's interest in heterosexual marriage.

Homosexuals cant have children (at least without great difficulty), thus the State has no interest in homosexual marriage.

Now, before someone jumps in to reply 'WHAT ABOUT STERILE PEOPLE', it's a matter of probability.

We have a minimum age for drinking. Why? To encourage responsible drinking. But, you say, SOME PEOPLE OVER 18 DRINK IRRESPONSIBILY. Yes, that's true, but it's a matter of probability. People who are older will in general drink more responsibly than those who are younger, and we choose a nice round number that we can distinguish by.

http://community.boredofstudies.org...revived-2.html?highlight=marriage#post1009610

So, Xayma, in reply to your point, firstly, married couples without children will generally have children, it is the probable outcome. Marriages where women have already reached menopause without children are quite rare, you would admit, and marriages with children fall under supporting the next generation. Likewise, one or both partners being infertile is also quite rare, along with those not wanting kids (although this is becoming more popular nowadays, with the low fertility rates etc. perfectly underlining my point about providing for the next generation).

 

[Xayma]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Rorix in 2004:



http://community.boredofstudies.org...revived-2.html?highlight=marriage#post1009610

So, Xayma, in reply to your point, firstly, married couples without children will generally have children, it is the probable outcome. Marriages where women have already reached menopause without children are quite rare, you would admit, and marriages with children fall under supporting the next generation. Likewise, one or both partners being infertile is also quite rare, along with those not wanting kids (although this is becoming more popular nowadays, with the low fertility rates etc. perfectly underlining my point about providing for the next generation).

But women reaching menopause where family support will be provided strongly by a new father is quite low. Particularly as the children become adults, it would be quite easy to apply probability to say that women over a certain age, such as 50, should not be able to remarry.

 

[Rorix]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

How many women over 50 with children remarry each year? Would you agree that most marriages are between two persons of child bearing age who get married with the aim of raising a family sometime in the future?

Of course there are circumstances XYZ which come up which undermine the basic principle of supporting the next generation. But in the majority of cases, marriage=families.

Besides, micromanaging family benefits as you propose is overall too much work and appears arbitrary - for example we say that intelligent 14yos can generally drink responsibly, but we want to maintain the overall age of 18. Now we have an IQ test when you go in to buy alcohol but are >14 but <18.

Would this create a fairer distribution in freedom to drink? Sure, it would. But it this really a viable proposal? I think you would agree not.

 

[Wilmo]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

My original thought was the same a Xayma's... that homosexuals should be allowed a civil union and that the church should distance itself from such unions... but I'm now starting to believe I had the wrong idea.

I got to thinking, if that was how God intended it, what about other important yet controversial issues? What about abortion? Should the church rule that abortion is ok as long as it is not christians who are getting abortion's? Francis Schaeffer certainly didn't believe so, neither should I!

In case you don't know who Schaeffer was, he was a Christian in America who believed that the greatest evangelical disaster was the whole church failing to stand for the truth as truth. In other words, the church stayed quiet about what it believed right and didnt stick up for itself when people believed that the church was wrong. Hence nobody was willing to listen when the church beliefs disagreed with the "world's beliefs".

Long book short, he was a man very passionate about reconnecting church and state because when God is in charge then the state will be working for the good of God's people. And this is the position I am now inclined to take more. Not that God and state will ever meet up greatly, but I am very passionate about not letting this world take control of itself.

Back onto gay marriages... because of my belief, I am much more inclined to agree with Rorix. I'm sure you can get what his opinion is from his posts

My opinion is that God created marriage as a gift, and the purpose of marriage is for a christian man and christian woman to get to know God more intimately and produce offspring. This next generation is born to a man and woman who know Him and will teach their kids about him.

A homosexual couple does not conform to this pattern. They cannot procreate, and even if it were possible, they would not pass on their knowledge of God to their children because by their life they show that they do not know Him.


In this instance, both church and state are united in purpose: Marriage to produce families. They differ for key reasons, but it is much better for church and state to be connected than to be seen as two polar opposites.


Well, I'm tired so I don't know if I've explained my thoughts well. But i'll go to bed, and it's certainly something I need to think about more.

 

[withoutaface]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

If two gay guys/girls want to get married then how does it affect me?

Answer: it doesn't, nor does it matter to anyone else but those two people.

 

[withoutaface]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

My original thought was the same a Xayma's... that homosexuals should be allowed a civil union and that the church should distance itself from such unions... but I'm now starting to believe I had the wrong idea.

I got to thinking, if that was how God intended it, what about other important yet controversial issues? What about abortion? Should the church rule that abortion is ok as long as it is not christians who are getting abortion's? Francis Schaeffer certainly didn't believe so, neither should I!

According to most true, devout Christians I know, the greatest gift God ever gave man was the freedom to choose. The freedom to choose whether to believe in him or not, and the freedom to follow in the ways he set down, or not. It is on this basis that the state has no right to interfere with someone's activity on religious grounds, because God left the choice up to the individual.

In case you don't know who Schaeffer was, he was a Christian in America who believed that the greatest evangelical disaster was the whole church failing to stand for the truth as truth. In other words, the church stayed quiet about what it believed right and didnt stick up for itself when people believed that the church was wrong. Hence nobody was willing to listen when the church beliefs disagreed with the "world's beliefs".

The church's role should be to actively convince the population of the reasons why certain acts forbidden by God are bad, but should not attempt to legislate against them unless they restrict the freedom of another.

Long book short, he was a man very passionate about reconnecting church and state because when God is in charge then the state will be working for the good of God's people. And this is the position I am now inclined to take more. Not that God and state will ever meet up greatly, but I am very passionate about not letting this world take control of itself.

Then you are acting against God's will.

Back onto gay marriages... because of my belief, I am much more inclined to agree with Rorix. I'm sure you can get what his opinion is from his posts

My opinion is that God created marriage as a gift, and the purpose of marriage is for a christian man and christian woman to get to know God more intimately and produce offspring. This next generation is born to a man and woman who know Him and will teach their kids about him.

That's called indoctrination, and is a disgusting practice. Children should not be hit with such things until they reach an age where they can make a mature decision for themselves. And does this mean you'd oppose the marriage of a non Christian heterosexual couple as well?

A homosexual couple does not conform to this pattern. They cannot procreate, and even if it were possible, they would not pass on their knowledge of God to their children because by their life they show that they do not know Him.

Just because you see no use in an activity does not mean that others feel the same. And besides, if I want to jump up in the air fifty times for no benefit whatsoever, then that's my right, and you have no business stopping me.

In this instance, both church and state are united in purpose: Marriage to produce families. They differ for key reasons, but it is much better for church and state to be connected than to be seen as two polar opposites.

You've failed to explain why marriage needs to be administered or monitored by the state at all. Surely a system where defacto rights are equal to current married rights and marriages were administered by private organisations would be just as effective, and remove an essentially useless part of government.

 

[olchik]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

hey wat do u guys think?

Sure it's their life and it should be allowed to live them together officially.

 

[Rorix]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

If two gay guys/girls want to get married then how does it affect me?

Answer: it doesn't, nor does it matter to anyone else but those two people.

Assuming it doesn't affect you, I fail to see the point you are trying to make? Are you suggesting you should only input about things that affect you?

Why is this? While I agree with you somewhat along liberalist philosophy, in this case I don't really think it's an issue. The main area of policy debate is whether or not gay couples should recieve the legal recognition from the State of their union, recieve financial benefits etc. While whether or not gay marriage is for or against God's will may be of academic interest, ultimately it will have no practical bearing on our society.

Or maybe we'll all just go to Hell.

Sure it's their life and it should be allowed to live them together officially.

Thank you for your input. Many on these forums are lacking the clarity and conciseness that your posts possess. May I humbly request that you post more often on these forums? I very much enjoy your posts, and think they set a standard we should aspire to.

 

[ihavenothing]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

He means that is not his business to deny the right for gay marriages, because he wouldn't need it because he is not gay and religious people who try and convince the government to forbid are obstructing them of their right as it does not affect them either.

 

[davin]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

gays can get married already


just, not to each otehr.