logical programming (2 Viewers)

[mattyb]

alright, lets go out on a limb here... i am a programmer, i have a lot of experience with imperative and object oriented languages, and a little bit of functional languages (just emacs lisp, SQL etc)... im doing the evolution of programming languages topic, and i'm forced to digest a heap of bullshit about logic languages.
what the hell? who here has used a logic language to accomplish a task? how much money has been made with logic language programs? im not asking where it would be nice/logical to use one, but where has it been done?

 

[-X-]

Isn't logical programmign or "languages" about AI etc...? If so then dude, thats how all the cool shit is made. Robots that "think", AI in games etc.....

 

[mattyb]

-X- in a word... no.

i have never seen a piece of source code for a game/cool shit system that uses a logic language. i strongly doubt there are any. it just doesnt happen.
"AI" in computer games are competly imperative : "if the player does this, do this", "if the player does that, do that". Tehre arent any "expert system" bad guys with a knowledge base of mean tendencies and heuristics all set to kick some ass.

The idea of a logic language is in theory pretty cool, but in practice god damned ridiculous. That is why they arent in practice, but for some reason i'm taught the stupid theory.

 

[-X-]

I dont really know, i dont do that option topic but yeh thats what i thought.

 

[SamD]

Despite what your saying, which I guess in part is true, for the HSC exam I'd advise you to check out a few descriptions of applications developed in Prolog. Here's a few links of relevance...

Some general applications
http://www.swi.psy.uva.nl/projects/SWI-Prolog/apps/view.html

Prolog used to develop code for Nokia mobile phones
http://www.ifcomputer.de/Products/Prolog/Applications/MobilePhoneConfig/home_en.html

Search Google and I'm sure you'll find a heap of others...

 

[Glide]

Logical is based on facts and rules.. It allows computers to take in a heap of info and calculate trends or conclusions from that info, which makes it useful for applications like neural networks (from what I gather).

Just because its not a popular end user language does not mean its useless!
Stock market trends, supermarket customer databases, all use logical and/or prolog to make predictions and such.

 

[Ragerunner]

Plus the learning curve will be harder.

 

[mattyb]

alright...
Glide, i respect your skills in coughing up syllabus... but im after an *actual* application. and also, yes because it is unpopular : it is useless. If it was useful, we'd be seeing "microsoft prolog" on the shelves and coders around the world would be knocking up dandy inference engines every day. It's jus not so.

SamD, thanks for that, i will study it but i will not believe it. For the sake of my UAI i'm gonna do some constructive lying. Though if you look closely at those sites, you'll realise that said "applications" are pretty flimsy... they're all open source - and i respect that 110% - but just because a bunch of bored hackers decided to make a "hello world" in prolog doesnt mean they were seriously thinking of it as a "paradigm". It seems not unlike coding in brainf*ck or INTERCAL - just to prove it could be done.

ragerunnner... what? next are you gonna tell me that the effect on maitenence and speed of code generation is also very important? And lets not forget emerging technologies and approach to testing. I learnt the same bullshit as you, doesnt meant that its true

i think the board of studies needs to rework its course... that is unless they are right, and the programming community is wrong...

 

[Ragerunner]

And neither what you are saying means it's true.

This software design, if you didn't know, all these things covered in the syllabus actually contribute to it.

Have you tried learning a different paradigm? I assume not. You sound like you know you are right and the BOS are wrong.

As much as I hate the course, it's something you have to go through if you want to design software. People don't just fire up C++ or some other programming paradigm and say ok im gonna make a super program.

Unless of course you want to tell me you do?

Logic programming need not necesarrily be restricted to software within computers e.g. games.

As said in the textbook, doctors can use it (expert systems) to reach conclusions based on symptoms.

 

[mattyb]

ok, most of your paragraphs need a reply (and also a grammar check)...

"And neither what you are saying means it's true."
- What?

"This software design, if you didn't know, all these things covered in the syllabus actually contribute to it."
- I just said that its not.. I want someone to prove me wrong ("If its in a book.. its GOTTA be true??")

"Have you tried learning a different paradigm? I assume not. You sound like you know you are right and the BOS are wrong. "
- my first post said that i have learnt and used three of the paradigms. i wasn't lying. I have seen examples of these, and worked with them (functional languages only a little bit).

"As much as I hate the course, it's something you have to go through if you want to design software. People don't just fire up C++ or some other programming paradigm and say ok im gonna make a super program."
- #1 C++ is not a programming paradigm, it is an object oriented language. #2 You don't have to do a high school course in programming in order to be a programmer. #3 I am arguing that most people do fire up C++ or equivilent for most tasks.

"Unless of course you want to tell me you do?"
- Yes. What do you use? dont say prolog - i know you'd be lying.

"Logic programming need not necesarrily be restricted to software within computers e.g. games."
- are you serious??? where else have u seen an expert system programmed? did you program napier's bones or something?

"As said in the textbook, doctors can use it (expert systems) to reach conclusions based on symptoms."
- if this is a followup on the previous answer, dude, doctors do not use anything other than computers. an expert system is software (damn, did i just win u some extra marks for tomorrow?). Also, the textbook said it, and i'm sayign what i'm saying. And i'm also saying that the textbook can't back it up.


now i dont want a huge argument, i just want to know is there anybody that can PROVE ME WRONG. see, i WANT you to... The thought of spending the last topic learning bullshit scares me more than being wrong.

 

[Glide]

Its not useless, its not practicle for end users like us.

 

[mattyb]

ur all telling me this, seems they have "taught" u well. but you can't show me.
show me ONE doctors office that has a specially made expert system. ONE!!! most i have seen have a visual basic interface to some lame access database. somewhat declarative, yes, "inference engine?", "fuzzy logic?", uhhh no.

Why arent there any solutions that are around that have said logic programming? Why arent there any commercially available prolog/scheme/somebullshit compilers? why isn't it "practical for end users"?
Why are we learning this useless bullshit?

(nb please prove me wrong, i'm serious)

 

[Ragerunner]

If you were right that would mean programming paradigms wouldn't exist.

And obviously they DO EXIST.

C++ is a programming language which belongs to the object oriented paradigm. you are being too literal in what I say.

HOW do you know these people don't use logic paradigms? Obviously if it exists it has been used at some point. Your assumptions are simply based on what you think and not whats true.

And HOW do you know these paradigms won't catch on? People in the early days didn't think computers would be much use. Look at it now. You are assuming too many things and trying to tell us you are always right.

I'm sorry, but I find it pointless talking to someone who thinks they are always rights based on what the situation is now.

You said you won't believe me that I learnt the logic paradigm? Why do you assume that when you said you learnt all 3 paradigms? What makes you so special? nothing.

 

[Popo Nana]

Like SamD, I somewhat agree. However, arguing with the BOS won't really help now.

I'm off to sleep. I recommend we all do.

Good night, folks, and good luck!

 

[-X-]

Well as far as i know, "Fuzzy Logic" has been used in many appliances and devices to make "decisisions".

Most of these you will probably see as useless but there is research going on in these fields for AI and stuff. It's like physics teaching crap about what plank did and why wats his name failed, but we still have to know it.

 

[mattyb]

If you were right that would mean programming paradigms wouldn't exist.
And obviously they DO EXIST.
- uh yeah, i've said that too from the start. read carefully. also, note this, there IS a logic paradigm! it EXISTS! i am arguing that it is not used in the software development world for making applications. there IS a difference.

C++ is a programming language which belongs to the object oriented paradigm. you are being too literal in what I say.
- sorry, it just sounded like u really meant it. really.

HOW do you know these people don't use logic paradigms? Obviously if it exists it has been used at some point. Your assumptions are simply based on what you think and not whats true.
- ehh, wrong again. I am a programmer, ie i PROGRAM. I program for enjoyment, for school, for money. In my experience (i do have a little), i have not seen implementations of logic solutions taken as serious software approaches. do a web search for "prolog", see how many development suites u find... see how many serious applications were built in it... none.

And HOW do you know these paradigms won't catch on? People in the early days didn't think computers would be much use. Look at it now.
hey, they might. but when was prolog invented.. early 70's (look it up in ur prescious book if u dont believe me). about the same time as basic, c, etc. if it was useful, it would have caught on by now!! it would be used as much as its imperative equivilents.

and people didn't think computers had much use? what have u been smoking?

"You are assuming too many things and trying to tell us you are always right."
- they are not assumptions. they are judgments based on facts and experience. I'm not always right, but right now i am until u can prove me wrong.

I'm sorry, but I find it pointless talking to someone who thinks they are always rights based on what the situation is now.
- i am right based on what the situation is now. the future may hold different options - quantum computing etc etc. but now, you tell me how many expert systems u see. i dare you to.

don't take stabs at me, or tell me i am wrong without backing yourself up.

You said you won't believe me that I learnt the logic paradigm? Why do you assume that when you said you learnt all 3 paradigms? What makes you so special? nothing.
I wont believe you that you learnt a logical language or could make a useful application in it, because i dont believe it is useful. I was not taking a stab at the amount of work u've done during the year - i'm sure youll regurgitate some nice stuff for tomorrow. but get out into the real world and try it, your in for a shock.

what makes me special? oh, man, that hurt. you are on a software design forum btw, i thought u might respect someone who has written upwards of a line of code in their lifetime.

 

[mattyb]

-X- ..
plank made significant contributions to physics, he is an important figure and made many important discoveries. in acknowledging what he did, we learn about his postulates. it's not crap.
fuzzy logic in appliances? uh, maybe. have you seen one? (no i'm not talking about in the sims)

 

[Ragerunner]

I'm not trying to take a stab from you, i'm merely trying to understand your point of view. There is a difference.

I can't say i'm right, and neither can you. You think searching things on the internet and not finding anything means its not used? The internet isn't everything.

Obviously there had to be some point where it had been used otherwise it wouldn't have existed.

Now it's time to get some early sleep for my double subject exam tomorrow. Good Luck in the SDD exam.

 

[-X-]

Originally posted by mattyb
-X- ..
plank made significant contributions to physics, he is an important figure and made many important discoveries. in acknowledging what he did, we learn about his postulates. it's not crap.
fuzzy logic in appliances? uh, maybe. have you seen one? (no i'm not talking about in the sims)

One thing of the top of my head is a vacume cleaner. Using its sensor, it detects the amount dust particles and using that information, and the amount in a given time. Based on that, it will try to determine what type of floor it is. Then according to the "knowledge" it gained, it will adjust its power, which means more efficient ( i cant remember were i read this BTW). Go to JAPAN and you'll find HEAPS of fuzzy logic appliances and electronics. I believe the sony palmtop also uses fuzzy logic.

There ya go, an actual use and stop assuming ure being taught crap cause ure not.

 

[mattyb]

STABSTABSTAB

"someone who thinks they are always rights", "trying to tell us you are always right."
- i dont know what hurts me more, the bad grammar or the accusations of being a smartass

"What makes you so special? nothing."
- I'm not special? i guess i'll never be one of the "special" kids like you, in the "special" class then?

STABSTABSTAB

im not saying the paradigm doesnt exist.. im saying that USEFUL IMPLEMENTATIONS do not exist.

in the software development world, the internet is a prime resource. if its not on there then its not popular. if its not popular, then its not used. if its not used, its not useful. there were more links for "beanie baby" than prolog. and prolog exists on a frickin computer!

good luck to u too, and good luck being a software designer. :|