Offer non-believers ethics, schools told (1 Viewer)

[Xayma]

Offer non-believers ethics, schools told
By Linda Doherty Education Editor
July 30, 2005

Ethics should be taught in public schools for students who do not attend scripture lessons to save them wasting time "colouring in", the state parents' group says.

Scripture has been part of secular public education for more than a century, but in many schools non-believers go to the library or playground, or watch videos during the weekly classes.

The NSW Federation of Parents and Citizens Associations and the St James Ethics Centre have proposed the development of an ethics syllabus to provide meaningful lessons during the timetabled scripture class.

The federation's president, Sharryn Brownlee, said ethics education would be debated today at the annual conference in Sydney, but already had strong support from the executive.

"One of the biggest concerns of parents is that children are meaningfully engaged. If they don't go to scripture, they shouldn't be just colouring in or sitting in the playground."

Simon Longstaff, the executive director of St James Ethics Centre, said in an essay that ethics education was "all the more pressing" because of the drift towards a "more secular society" and the increasing number of parents who spurned scripture. He said successive state governments had "ensured" schools had no useful alternative to scripture.

The review also observed that: "Ethics, the study of morals and values, is valuable for its own sake and … people can be moral without being religious."

The president of the Batemans Bay Public School P&C, Michael Brassil, said there was a "vacuum" for the non-scripture students, which could be filled by teaching them about the "ethical basis for behaviour" just as scripture lessons studied a belief system.

The Minister for Education, Carmel Tebbutt, said she would await the outcome of the P&C conference, but said values were already taught in public schools.

She said she would need to be convinced there was a strong case before adding anything to the curriculum.

Her predecessor, Andrew Refshauge, ruled out an earlier proposal from the centre.

Scripture is taught for an average of 40 minutes a week in about 70 per cent of public primary schools, but is less common in high schools.

Source: Sydney Morning Herald Online

Is this just an attempt to introduce christian morality into children? I would love to see the ethics, that are proposed being taught, although I have no problem with ethics being taught, it should be limited to professional ethics and not personal ones. But if that was the case then those doing scripture should also be taught it.

Personally I would prefer Scripture not to be taught at all with public money in public schools.

 

[Phanatical]

I like this idea. For many religions (especially the good ones like Catholicism), ethics are an integral part of the teaching, and people are taught the inherant value in good ethics. But for atheists such as myself, we often have to develop our own ethics, which provides its own set of problems

 

[Comrade nathan]

It assumes two things. 1) The non-scripture kids do not learn ethics through other means, 2) That the children who do scripture are actually learning ethics, or like scripture. This group is saying that children who learn religion have more morales and ethics, while the other heathens are immoral.

I went to scripture, and i was a non believer since year 3. So i did not take in a whole lot, just screwed around.

Personally I would prefer Scripture not to be taught at all with public money in public schools.

Me too.

 

[Xayma]

I like this idea. For many religions (especially the good ones like Catholicism), ethics are an integral part of the teaching, and people are taught the inherant value in good ethics. But for atheists such as myself, we often have to develop our own ethics, which provides its own set of problems

The line becomes blurred at what ethics should be taught. Obviously most won't have a problem with "It's wrong to lie, cheat and steal" but then again that is taught outside of scripture, if you start blurring the lines and go it's unethical to have sex with a stranger then problems begin.

 

[santaslayer]

fuck ethics...

if u do believe in them...u will follow them even though they aren't taught...

if u aren't an ethical type of person, then no matter how brainwashing.....nothing will work...


ethics for professional purposes though, should be kept.

 

[Calculon]

If they were basic stuff such as being against inappropriate lying, murder, stealing, rape, infidelity etc then I'm all for it, but as others have said, if they're trying to enforce the more controversial Christian ideals then no.

 

[Generator]

I think Christian ethics should be taught. No, I'm not Christian, but can you actually tell me what is bad about Christian ethics and values?

It is ludicrous to reject a system in its entirety simply because you do not like certain parts of it.

I suppose this is why as an atheist I prefer to be around Christians than other atheists.

Ah, Slide Rule, the ethics and values that are already evident within the public system are Christian based, as are most western secular values. With that in mind, it is only the religious message that is missing, and I cannot see a problem with that.

And you would propose that parents have the right to teach their children that things like murder are OK if they wish to?

Don't trivialise the issue with extreme examples, because this forum should be beyond that by now.

 

[Calculon]

Such actions do not come about as a result of the Catholic religion, but because of the fact that the religion has jobs with easy access to children with a great deal of respect for you.

 

[Xayma]

I think Christian ethics should be taught. No, I'm not Christian, but can you actually tell me what is bad about Christian ethics and values?

It is ludicrous to reject a system in its entirety simply because you do not like certain parts of it.

I suppose this is why as an atheist I prefer to be around Christians than other atheists.

There become problems with things like sex before marriage. Not things like harming others.

 

[chookyn]

I'm saying people should have a choice if they want their children taught Christian values. Some people don't. And Saying that Western society is based on Christian values doesn't justify why it should be the set that is taught to impressionable school children.

I understand you're saying that people (or at least parents) should have a choice of what their children are taught. So what values do you propose 'impressionable' school children be taught?

IMO, a lack of ethics/scripture teaching will only broaden the gap between children who've been taught Christian ethics, and those who haven't. A generation of ignorant people will arise (and we know what lack of understanding leads to).

Also, what if some (older) children actually want to learn ethics but the parents don't let them, or actively discourage it? Parents are guilty of 'brainwashing' too.

What's wrong with children broadening their worldview and being taught ethics/scripture? They can always reject it later if they don't agree.

 

[Generator]

What's wrong with children broadening their worldview and being taught ethics/scripture? They can always reject it later if they don't agree.

Comrade Nathan's first post would be well worth your attention.

 

[Comrade nathan]

My question is can you teach ethics?

Is ethics like maths?

If we teach a group of children ethics, will they follow thoose ethics?

I think ethics is like langauge acquisition. We could communicate well before we were taught the rules of langauge. We sub consciously already knew the rules, before someone told use you need a verb subject and object. It is only later in our education we may be told the rules of language, why langauge is how it is. Though most adults would eventually forgot and could not tell you what a object subject verb etc are, yet they use them everyday.

So langauge is something we learn and use according to our environment.

I think this is the same as ethics. While i may be told not to use the word "yous", i can use it in a certain situation and my message is not lost, for example "can yous hurry up".

This is why individual people who are Christain, have different morales. For instance is it ok to steal if you are poor? Some christians may say yes, while others may say no. Yet both were told that stealing is wrong.

So i don't think you can teach ethics, especially if it conflicts with practice. "Never murder, don't even joke about murder". Once you join the army that ethic no longer applies to "never" but to situation. "Murder our enemies, don't murder our allies".

 

[Calculon]

My question is can you teach ethics?

Is ethics like maths?

If we teach a group of children ethics, will they follow thoose ethics?

I think ethics is like langauge acquisition. We could communicate well before we were taught the rules of langauge. We sub consciously already knew the rules, before someone told use you need a verb subject and object. It is only later in our education we may be told the rules of language, why langauge is how it is. Though most adults would eventually forgot and could not tell you what a object subject verb etc are, yet they use them everyday.

So langauge is something we learn and use according to our environment.

I think this is the same as ethics. While i may be told not to use the word "yous", i can use it in a certain situation and my message is not lost, for example "can yous hurry up".

This is why individual people who are Christain, have different morales. For instance is it ok to steal if you are poor? Some christians may say yes, while others may say no. Yet both were told that stealing is wrong.

So i don't think you can teach ethics, especially if it conflicts with practice. "Never murder, don't even joke about murder". Once you join the army that ethic no longer applies to "never" but to situation. "Murder our enemies, don't murder our allies".

Sure, such things have thier limits, but at such a young age you should give blanket statements on particular things which are generally wrong, and as they gain maturity explain that there do exist situations where it is appropriate.

 

[chookyn]

1. Im not proposing any values that should be taught. Thats my point. It's up to parents to decide what they teach their children, not me, not anyone else.

2. Why would a generation of ignorant people arise. Are you saying because if people haven't been taught Christian ethics they are ignorant. That's fucking stupid.

3. What do you mean their parents won't let them? What ethics are you talking about?

4. How exactly does scripture broadens peoples worldviews? And they shouldn't have to "reject it" because they shouldn't have had to listen to it in the first place.

1) Okay. But what if some parents neglect to teach their children values? Or teach them warped values that aren't acceptable in mainstream society? (i.e. it's okay to lie, cheat, steal, murder, if it makes things work for you) There are some parents out there who aren't a good influence on their children, unfortunately. If schools aren't allowed to teach children what is generally right, and parents don't, what then? A generation of children, a majority of whom will not know right from wrong, simply because they haven't been taught.

2) IMO, ignorance is basically a lack of awareness, whether by choice or unintentional. So yes, i guess you could say that i'm saying that.

3) Some parents are control freaks and would not let their children learn Christian ethics/religion, even if they wanted to. That would be a minority of parents, however. Children have rights too.

4) Anything you learn, be it scripture or history or english, will increase your understanding of the world in which you live. Or, you can bury your head in the sand if you don't want to listen and opt for a life of ignorance.

You do realise that by denying children a complete education, you are denying them the opportunity to make more informed decisions for themselves in the future?

 

[Generator]

1) Okay. But what if some parents neglect to teach their children values? Or teach them warped values that aren't acceptable in mainstream society? (i.e. it's okay to lie, cheat, steal, murder, if it makes things work for you) There are some parents out there who aren't a good influence on their children, unfortunately. If schools aren't allowed to teach children what is generally right, and parents don't, what then? A generation of children, a majority of whom will not know right from wrong, simply because they haven't been taught.

...

You do realise that by denying children a complete education, you are denying them the opportunity to make more informed decisions for themselves in the future?

Surely you cannot be that thick as to ignore the blindingly obvious? Children are taught the difference between conventional notions of right and wrong at school, it's just that such lessons aren't loaded with the religious baggage of the scriptures.

As for the final paragraph, I find that kind of strange given the abstinence only educational programmes favoured by many church groups. Besides, 'informed' choices regarding spirituality require a firm grounding in critical thought and independence, not age-old doctrine.

 

[santaslayer]

no they dont! there rights belong to the parents, parent responbility to ensure there rights. means they have no rights because how do they no their rights? are u saying a child of 3 has rights? and that he/she can complain? their parents do it for them!

No...

that's a parent's RESPONSIBILITY...to uphold the child's rights.

Both parent's and child have rights and responsibilities.


Go look at CROC (Convention on the rights of the child) for an international perspective and a 10000 other statutes that convey the same notion.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Is this just an attempt to introduce christian morality into children? I would love to see the ethics, that are proposed being taught, although I have no problem with ethics being taught, it should be limited to professional ethics and not personal ones. But if that was the case then those doing scripture should also be taught it.

Personally I would prefer Scripture not to be taught at all with public money in public schools.

I most certainly agree, though if ethics were to be taught then I wouldn't mind "personal" ethics forming part of the subject matter.

As long as these "value" classes are not solely Christian values, then I think that the study of ethics would be an advantageous addition to youth development. I plan to present my child with all the ethical theories and ways of thinking about morality and suggest to them the one that I think is the best.

I don't think it is necessary, but I think it would be valuable.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

I'm sure you would make a great daddy moonlight. Sitting there telling your 10 year old about ethical theories

I hope he doesn't start adhering to ethical nihilism to justify staying up late or some other such mischief hehe

 

[braindrainedAsh]

I don't understand why teachers are expected to take on the role of parents these days.

They are burdened with so much more responsibility than teaching nowadays, and they don't get paid enough for it in the public system anyway.

Morality and religion should be left for parents to teach. If a child's parents don't have ethics, then no amount of "sharing" lessons will teach them or change them.

Ethics education is a part of the general school situation, where you be nice to other children, share, don't tease etc.

To set aside a special lesson for ethics would be stupid. The person to person interaction children have at school are a better lesson in ethics than any special class could provide. In my opinion scripture classes have no place in public schools. Parents should take their kids to Sunday school if they want their children to be educated in religion, or send them to a religous school.

I also think that this is saying that non-religious folk don't have ethics, which is certainly not true.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Thinking carefully about what is right and wrong is a very valuable experience that is a lot more complex than one might think. If nothing else it gets youths considering the implications of their actions on others. It may make them at least consider important ethical decisions when in some instances they may lack proper prudence or thoughtfulness.