Significance of good grades in gaining employment? (2 Viewers)

[disorient]

Im just wondering, how BIG a factor are grades in gaining employment post-graduation?

How big a part does it play in scoring an interview etc etc etc ...

The reason why i ask is because i am half way through my degree but STILL sitting on a pass average ...so im finking whats the point in continuing if i stay sitting at a pass average..only to later not be able to use my degree to get a job anyway...what good is there in continuing (ie. racking up more debt, wasting time etc etc) when it cant score me a job!

Any thoughts ppl?

 

[Tuna]

Try to get heaps of experience during your free time. Experience is better than grades. In school they teach you Nice Theories, in life those theories aren't worth a lot if you cannot excecute them. Right!

 

[disorient]

To add even more oil to my fears ... i ve heard stories of HD D students being rejected as welll...some cant even get interviews ...so WHAT CHANCE DO I HAVE? And if i dont have a chance on the basis of grades alone...what else can i do to prop myself up other than bribe the employers?

Anyone got any stories theyd like to share?

 

[Frigid]

it sort of goes like this:

you get the degree to qualify for the job. you have work experience to show you can perform it well. these two factors are complementary. you cannot say one is significant to the exclusion of the other.

of course, those D and HD students you speak of may just be lacking in non-academic skills. but that doesn't mean that, as a logical consequence, non-academic skills alone will get you an interview.

if you were an employer, you would want someone who has a bit of both, a sum of the parts so to speak. unfortunately, with a pass average, you would have to impress the employer a lot more with your other skills, for them to give you the job.

 

[seremify007]

I agree with Frigid- the degree lets you qualify for the job (as long as you pass); but once you're in the interview... there's a lot more to it than just academics. Extra curricular, work experience, sporting achievements, community involvement, etc... these all show your ability to manage work and balance time, and may also showcase your ability to communicate with people. Any skills you might've picked up along the way which might also be useful in the job you are applying for will definitely be an advantage over someone who has no skills, no experience, and has nothing to show for their life except a good academic record.

That being said, if you have a HD/D average, then all other factors equal (ie. same amount of experience, same amount of extra curricular involvement, etc...) you're probably going to be placed ahead of other candidates with a lower academic standing.

Look at it from the employer's point of view- academics are just a way to show how well you can adapt and learn new & relevant things; but ultimately, they want someone who fits what they want in the employee- and skills and achievements are your way of showing them what you are capable of.

 

[Tuna]

To add even more oil to my fears ... i ve heard stories of HD D students being rejected as welll...some cant even get interviews ...so WHAT CHANCE DO I HAVE? And if i dont have a chance on the basis of grades alone...what else can i do to prop myself up other than bribe the employers?

Anyone got any stories theyd like to share?

Try to apply for smaller companies FIRST! Work your way up to a mangement role of a small company rather than doing filing for international companies.

Case: Would you like to own 90% share with a weak partner or 50 split with a strong partner?

Are you ruthless when it comes down do real business? In real life you can't cut out the middle-man, small companies will be your middle man to get to the top. Try to get many middle men as you can whilst using to your advantage.

Your grade will reflect little of you if you show Qualities! Try to talk to people more and get their contacts, it might seems that you are out to hassle them but that is the easiest way...TRY TO GO many social events where many business executive or students meet.

If you want to sit infront of the computer and put in data then ignore what I just said. however, if you would like to travel and shake hands with people then start now.

Business is about practising and learning who's not to trust.

 

[turtleface]

I've looked into this issue at depth recently. The only explanation I can think of is that the firms recruit from a wide range deliberately. They deliberately target high achievers to fill the Technical guru roles and to get some hard workers. But they also target reasonable competent, but also "charismatic" people for rainmaker roles. A splattering of reasonably smart and reasonably well rounded people may also be recruited to increase the ability of the firm to adapy. I guess you can think of it as a bit of this and a bit of that. I think the reason is the practices are really becoming multi disciplinary now and the need for various people with various attributes is become more pronounced. So you need a wide variety of people. This probably also explains why straight 90s people miss sometimes, they may have met their "technical type" quota. Though this is my guess only, and not confirmed.

The bottom line is anyone can achieve top marks or top involvement with hard work. If you cbfed and continually pass and bludge, then its probably hard to land a job unless you were good in 1st yr and got into CA Achiever or something.

Case: Would you like to own 90% share with a weak partner or 50 split with a strong partner?

yeah but that 90% would probably still be less than say 5% split in a big partnership

in accounting for instance per person big 4 probably get 100K more per person than some of the mid tiers.

 

[M@C D@DDY]

let's hope you are right about the CA Achiever, though i question its long term significance, i only did two weeks, so seriously I ain't got that significant of an advantage over everyone else. From my experiences, I believe that the people who end up at the big 4 tend to possess similar traits (though this can differ from diff firms), but overall i must say that people are generally bright and techinically proficient, BUT they are not overly involved, like the people who attain HD avgs tend to be (not saying that there are no HD avg ppl there). I feel they generally hire those who can strive for a balance between work and other activities, and of course all the other skills (inter-personal, analytical...etc.)

 

[turtleface]

Yeah you might be right, CA Achiever may not be that useful in long term (i'm not sure), I've heard it leads to return offers for big four firms though, like my bro got a return offer from KPMG (for vacation work again) after 6 weeks of work, and other friends got return offers from KPMG and Deloitte but thats probably just melbourne. My other friend went to a mid tier but didn't get an offer from a mid tier firm, though he was told to stay in contact. One dude I know had his firm withdraw on him, before the awards night. he later applied for big 4 vacation to 2 firms but was rejected, one initially, the other after the interview.

---
From my experiences, I've found that:

Deloitte: recruits the outgoing/"well rounded" people - most often aka the people who (tend) to get lower marks
KPMG: picks up a very wide range of people, including people from the "2nd tier"/non G8 universities
PwC: elite-ish people, smart people, snobs,
E&Y: good looking people (girls), bogan-ish yobbos

and in divisions:
Audit: a big mix, Indians/Sri Lankans, caucasians
Tax: more elite unis, lots of asians
others: all sorts of weird mixtures

 

[M@C D@DDY]

Yeah you might be right, CA Achiever may not be that useful in long term (i'm not sure), I've heard it leads to return offers for big four firms though, like my bro got a return offer from KPMG (for vacation work again) after 6 weeks of work, and other friends got return offers from KPMG and Deloitte but thats probably just melbourne. My other friend went to a mid tier but didn't get an offer from a mid tier firm, though he was told to stay in contact. One dude I know had his firm withdraw on him, before the awards night. he later applied for big 4 vacation to 2 firms but was rejected, one initially, the other after the interview.

And let me just say that to get an interview nowdays at a big4, I am afraid that good grade and possibly a law degree is a prerequisite, because recently I was at a vacation interview for KPMG, and the three people I met: two were 4th yr com/law (Usyd, UTS) and the third was crazy BCom guy at UNSW. We all agreed that their selection criteria was 'narrow', gathered from the 'range' of candidates at the interviews. SO yeh afraid that for big4, you would have to be getting reasonable results at uni to secure an interview.

This is perhaps the problem with the accounting industry at the moment. The media on the one-hand is spreading the word that there is a wonderful shortage in accounting and that it is an employee's market, but when you look to the big4, there is absolutely no shortage of talent, and places are highly competitive. Also with the big unis round NSW pumping out the Commerce graduates, this does not seem to be a short-term thing. But I am sure all of us will end up at the places where we want to be, just gotta keep the faith and stay motivated.....

a bit harsh that your mate got rejected by the firm... how did that happen??

 

[seremify007]

Deloitte: recruits the outgoing/"well rounded" people - most often aka the people who (tend) to get lower marks
KPMG: picks up a very wide range of people, including people from the "2nd tier"/non G8 universities
PwC: elite-ish people, smart people, snobs,
E&Y: good looking people (girls), bogan-ish yobbos

and in divisions:
Audit: a big mix, Indians/Sri Lankans, caucasians
Tax: more elite unis, lots of asians
others: all sorts of weird mixtures

ROFLMAO

So I'm smart and elite eh?... Watch me snob u

Btw, I'm surprised you didn't pick up on the key personality aspect of KPMG. There's something about them which all the cadets at UNSW can pick up on and help us recognise them miles away!

 

[overfloat]

Dont give up, i've found its much easier to get higher grades in the later years of uni than the earlier years, lots of people i know started with pass averages for first year, now on D averages. Myself included =#... i think i did much less work in my later years than in the first years too..... i dunno, first year subjects didnt suit me very well, weekly homework etc... too much like school.... as you move on you end up getting bigger projects (stretched over the whole semester) and less weekly work. Also, you get more choice in later years with regards to what you study. You will get a much better grade if you WANT to study your courses than if you are forced to do them.

 

[disorient]

lol i think i must be the only person to be at this stage in their degree and still sitting on a pass average...shittest feeling ever !!!!

Good god procrastination is such a bad degree pisser-upperer!!!

 

[turtleface]

Nah just study more and you should be alright.

---

Btw, I'm surprised you didn't pick up on the key personality aspect of KPMG. There's something about them which all the cadets at UNSW can pick up on and help us recognise them miles away!

I have to say the recruitment practices of most of the firms are starting to piss me off

---

This is perhaps the problem with the accounting industry at the moment. The media on the one-hand is spreading the word that there is a wonderful shortage in accounting and that it is an employee's market, but when you look to the big4, there is absolutely no shortage of talent, and places are highly competitive. Also with the big unis round NSW pumping out the Commerce graduates, this does not seem to be a short-term thing. But I am sure all of us will end up at the places where we want to be, just gotta keep the faith and stay motivated.....

I have two thoughts on this:
I'm not sure about NSW, it does seem to be pumping out a lot of Accounting grads but in Victoria (at least at Melb Uni) its fairly small. From my uni along I'd say about 200-300 eligible people a year now, based on current enrollments. but I have to admit Accounting is seen as a 2nd tier course so there are A LOT of people doing it in 2nd tier universities, so that could explain the large numbers overall in Victoria despite low numbers at Melbourne Uni. At Melbourne, 1st yr accounting had about 1400 enrolled last year, this year in 2nd yr accounting the number has dropped to about 600, and of those more than half are overseas students, who are either ineligible or discriminated against anyway.
Secondly, I was talking to the Grad Rec people when I was doing my work experience and I was saying "oh but I guess big 4 isn't affected by the skills shortage cause everyone wants to get into them" but she disagreed straight away and said she said that even Big Four was finding it harder and harder to find good candidates. I think the skills shortage refers more to the lack of qualifications amongst Accounting job seekers.
Also I think our perception on how many Accounting grads is there are is distorted. I'd say most are overseas students, at least in my experience, and they do Accounting to get Permanenet Residency, but unfortunately they never get the big 4 jobs anyway and end up as overqualified cheap labour for data entry or number crunching roles. Like I have never seen a FOB working in a Big Four firm . No offence intended by the use of FOB, but thats the most accurate name I can give to the people I am referring to.
---

a bit harsh that your mate got rejected by the firm... how did that happen??

Yeah it was pretty much a few weeks after the acceptance letter, but before the awards ceremony. They pretty much just said "oh we can't take you anymore" But the ICAA said that they'll try to find a replacement firm for him and another girl this year.

 

[stazi]

I thought that I would bump this, as it is a great thread. In my experience, 'it depends'.

Some industries will only employ graduates with D/HD averages. For instance, getting into IB or Management Consulting will require such a high standard of marks. However, most other industries will have much lower cut-offs, or no cut-offs at all for grads.

Basically, good academic performance adds value to your application. However, academic performance, alone, won't guarantee you a spot. For example, I have an HD average (well, close to it) in marketing. I can almost guarantee you that if I had no work experience, I would not receive any job offers. However, if I had great work experience, and a C average, I would be far more likely to receive offers. Work experience is basically training which they don't have to pay for. However, combine solid marks + work experience, and you will stand out from all the other competitors.

 

[bukwow]

ROFLMAO

So I'm smart and elite eh?... Watch me snob u

Btw, I'm surprised you didn't pick up on the key personality aspect of KPMG. There's something about them which all the cadets at UNSW can pick up on and help us recognise them miles away!

They use KPMG pencil cases?... well at macq thats how i notice them anyways lol

 

[havy]

Btw, I'm surprised you didn't pick up on the key personality aspect of KPMG. There's something about them which all the cadets at UNSW can pick up on and help us recognise them miles away!

What would that be? sounds like it is something not written on the company website or recruitment booklet.

lolz recognize them from miles away...is it the way they act or is it the KPMG pencil case as bukwow has mentioned? but I also see alot of ppl with their PWC writing pads around.

 

[Rorix]

Agree with Stas, but a pass average is pushing it.

 

[havy]

I'd like to know how ppl define credit average, obviously there are a few options:

GPA: 5.0/7 or 3.0/4 (USA and Macq system)

WAM: 65+ or 60+ (although I donno how can 60 be a credit mark)

 

[stazi]

Some universities have different ranges for each mark. GPA can also vary according to institution quite a bit. For this reason (as well as a few other reasons), WAM is a far better indicator of actual performance.

Typically, employers will know what cut-offs are at each major university for each grade. If lazy, they will set the cutoff at the lowest cutoff for each band (e.g. CommBank sets it at credit average = 60, as some unis interstate apparently have 60 as a C). Other employers may simply have a system online that flags people from other unis and modifies their WAM to a more standardised one, where:
50 = P, 65 = C, 75 = D, 85 = HD

It would actually be an interesting exercise to poll people on this forum with internship/grad offers regarding the jobs they received and their academic results.