Does God exist? (16 Viewers)

[Cookie182]

I have to go

God bless

 

[KFunk]

Is holding a position that something is neither moral nor immoral (i.e. amoral) a normative ethical position?

You ought not worry about it. (Properly speaking: no)

 

[Tangent]

how can u have objectives moral if morality is dependent on the person, therefore making it subjective

please correct me if im wrong

 

[Cookie182]

YouTube - Dr. Zakir Naik - Does God exist?

really, really needs critiquing

lets use these arguments for now on as a basis of debate

 

[Graney]

For interest, budding philosophers of BOS, someone give me an objective moral truth

I have a feeling, a vibe, that the existence of life might be inherently good.

If we accept the idea of life existing at all, anywhere, ever, in any instance, being inherently a good thing, then you must accept a whole range of truths, and take on a lot of moral certainties from that.

If the existence of life at one moment is a good thing, then it is a good thing to sustain the existence of life as much as possible. Wherefore, we must do everything possible to acheive and maintain a sustainable existence for life on earth. This does not mean a volume or quantity of life is good, but rather the quality, diversity and continuity of the system. Volume, as the catholics are fond of, may be contrary to sustainability.

Environmental ethics I believe in wholeheartedly. I find it hard to conceive and rationalise how it would be insignificant, irrelevant if life were to never have existed on earth. It goes against the being.

Perhaps i'm just being viverecentric.

 

[big8oyjames]

YouTube - Dr. Zakir Naik - Does God exist?

really, really needs critiquing

lets use these arguments for now on as a basis of debate

my cousins in Pakistan tried to push his propaganda down my throat when they realized my faith wasnt as strong as theirs. His arguments are totally laughable, but in saying that, he has a VERY strong hold in the lower- middle class demographics all over they sub continent. some see him as a semi prophet.

bloody joke.

 

[Iron]

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.












-
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

 

[moll.]

love this discussion!!

But here's a small question directed at atheists:doesn't it take faith to be an atheist? It seems that faith is derided by most atheists, but it takes faith to believe that all that is real can be fully perceived and known by humans. Unless you acknowledge that there could be some higher spiritual reality, I don't see how it can't be faith to be assured in oneself without proof.
I'm not trying to insult atheists, I just wanna see what their take on this would be.

It should also be noted (and hasn't been) that if indeed an atheist turns out to be wrong, and there is a god/s and an alternately good or bad afterlife, then we have no problem with this. If indeed he truly is a kind and benevolent deity then he will understand our reasoning, and will only judge us upon our actions in life, which will be no more immoral or 'evil' than any theists actions.
If however, he decides that, because we used our deductive reasoning to conclude his existance doubtful, we deserve an eternity in Hell, then this is a choice that many atheists are not fazed by. Hell is predominately described as a place without god's influence and love. All of the fire, brimstone and eternal torture comes second to this primary condition of it's existance. An atheist will have no problem spending eternity in such a condition however, as it is merely an extension of our previously physical existance.

 

[Tangent]

YouTube - Dr. Zakir Naik - Does God exist?

when he is refering the the references about water and its physical changes, what do those passages actually say. i just laughed cuz he was rattling passage numbers off his head and everyone started clapping, like he justified his answer by making a list but not giving any evidence

 

[UndeadSamurai01]

It should also be noted (and hasn't been) that if indeed an atheist turns out to be wrong, and there is a god/s and an alternately good or bad afterlife, then we have no problem with this. If indeed he truly is a kind and benevolent deity then he will understand our reasoning, and will only judge us upon our actions in life, which will be no more immoral or 'evil' than any theists actions.
If however, he decides that, because we used our deductive reasoning to conclude his existence doubtful, we deserve an eternity in Hell, then this is a choice that many atheists are not fazed by. Hell is predominately described as a place without god's influence and love. All of the fire, brimstone and eternal torture comes second to this primary condition of it's existence. An atheist will have no problem spending eternity in such a condition however, as it is merely an extension of our previously physical existence.

You can't believe something just because you think one position is better than the other. If someone pays you $1,000,000 to believe that the sky is green you can pretend to believe it to get the $1,000,000 but you can't truly believe it because you have no evidence that it is and strong evidence that it is not. This wouldn't work with a god. If there were a god he would know that you were pretending and you would go to hell anyway because you do not truly believe.

You can't just decide to believe something - it doesn't work that way. Just because you want to believe something doesn't mean you will be able to convince yourself that it's true.

It is better to stay focused on what you do believe and not what is better to believe or what you want to believe.

 

[Cookie182]

You can't believe something just because you think one position is better than the other. If someone pays you $1,000,000 to believe that the sky is green you can pretend to believe it to get the $1,000,000 but you can't truly believe it because you have no evidence that it is and strong evidence that it is not. This wouldn't work with a god. If there were a god he would know that you were pretending and you would go to hell anyway because you do not truly believe.

You can't just decide to believe something - it doesn't work that way. Just because you want to believe something doesn't mean you will be able to convince yourself that it's true.

It is better to stay focused on what you do believe and not what is better to believe or what you want to believe.

Exactly. Growing up I often tried to take on a variety of theistic thoughts- but my mind overall just will not let me except such thoughts as belief. You can not force yourself to. Also, if God is true and obviously he then creates these thoughts for us and has wired us in that way- then it is his fault we don't "believe". If he was to punish us for his doing, what does that say about God?

Additionally, just lol at that video- the guy says Islam has never contradicted itself on anything or to name one example of Islam against humanity. By knowing every passage and quoting them as blind 'evidence' it is reasonable to conclude that he takes the Qu'ran literally. Therefore he must certainly accept that everything in the Qu'ran needs to be upheld. Philosopher's have long thought that one of the greatest gifts a human being can have is autonomy- in fact, denying such a thing is certainly by the best definition possible, a grave harm to humanity. Let's ask the good Dr then- What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?

 

[UndeadSamurai01]

Also, if God is true and obviously he then creates these thoughts for us and has wired us in that way- then it is his fault we don't "believe". If he was to punish us for his doing, what does that say about God?

Totally. I had that exact same thought and I end up in this position where I wonder whether god is evil. I mean no-one can prove he isn't any more than you can prove that he does/doesn't exist. Because he is all-powerful there would be no way for us to tell if he was lying. A preacher once told me that we can't understand his motives, but that seems like more of a reason to distrust him rather than believe him.

If god were evil or even just no entirely good it would forever end the debate about why he allows suffering and why appears so immoral in the old testament.

P.S. to any theists out there I don't actually think god is evil - because even god can't be evil without existing.

 

[Tangent]

some jehovah's witnesses came to my door a couple of months ago, telling me that it was all the non-believers fault that there was violence and war etc., and that god was suffering with us. They gave me a pamphlet (the one for the non believer) that said god will soon rid the land of all the evil ones. it made good bin lining.
nothing like god threatening to kill me on a sunday afternoon

 

[greekgun]

some jehovah's witnesses came to my door a couple of months ago, telling me that it was all the non-believers fault that there was violence and war etc., and that god was suffering with us. They gave me a pamphlet (the one for the non believer) that said god will soon rid the land of all the evil ones. it made good bin lining.
nothing like god threatening to kill me on a sunday afternoon

Jehovahs witnesses piss me off so much. If people are interested in their religion, then people will go seek them out. I dont want to be woken up 9:00am on a satatday morning only to slam the door in their faces when i say "sorry im not really religous" to which the reply "oh ok...have fun in hell".

 

[tommykins]

Jehovahs witnesses piss me off so much. If people are interested in their religion, then people will go seek them out. I dont want to be woken up 9:00am on a satatday morning only to slam the door in their faces when i say "sorry im not really religous" to which the reply "oh ok...have fun in hell".

if they said that to me i'd seriously have a massive debate with them.

 

[Tangent]

to which they would say ok politely, had u a pamphlet and move onto the next house

 

[tommykins]

to which they would say ok politely, had u a pamphlet and move onto the next house

ohhh ill give them a mouthful if thats the case

 

[greekgun]

to which they would say ok politely, had u a pamphlet and move onto the next house

lol thats all they can do; they cant think for them selves so they just say some generic answer or hand u a pamphlet.
and i seriously woundlnt want to debate religion with someone at 9 in the morning. Especially on a Saturday morning when im nursing a hangover.

 

[Cookie182]

I often just be ridiculous and tell them I am God. This is a test of their faith. If they run, Satan will chase them. Here me roar!

 

[greekgun]

lol once my mum told them sorry she cant talk he has to go finish cooking before it burns and they were like "oh oh dont worry we'll come help u cook". They must be really desperate for members to their religion.