Organ Trading? (2 Viewers)

[loquasagacious]

Virginia Postrel examines the kidney donation system in the United States, where 11 people die every day waiting for a kidney transplant. Exchanging organs for payment is illegal in the U.S. although recent developments in organ exchanges, including donation chains, have been successful. These innovations alone, however, won’t solve the problem, and Postrel advocates a new system that includes both financial incentives and measures to protect donors.

For Sale: One Kidney? - Freakonomics Blog - NYTimes.com

Basically there is a critical shortage of donated organs imo the best solution to this is legalising the buying and selling of organs in an open market. Courtesy of the invisible hand of the market an organ price will emerge which is sufficient incentive to bring much larger numbers of organs to the people who need them.

There are of course many interesting new business models which might emerge in these markets. Chimp and pig organs selling at lower price-points than human organs, artificial organs, private health insurers buying organs on behalf of clients, markets for organ futures/options/forwards, using organs as collateral, selling liver tissue several times a year, etc etc.

Just like any other contract an organ contract would be bound by contract law, especially relevant would be laws relating to fair treatment in asymmeterical relationships. On top of this there would be other existing applicable legislation and likely new legislation to place some rules around acceptable conduct.

Ultimately though an organ market would mean, more organs for people who need them.

What are your thoughts? Would you sell a kidney to put yourself through uni? How about selling 10% of your liver to fund a holiday? Are you in favour of organ markets or opposed?

 

[loquasagacious]

Also it's worth noting that in a limited sense some donor markets already exist, in the US sperm donors are paid, in the UK blood donors are paid.

The Sperm Bank of California www.thespermbankofca.org
London jobs - Get Paid To Be A Blood Donor in London Earn Up to 80 4 Blood Donations - 3
Blood donation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Iron]

Totally opposed. It's a revolting concept - the very embodiment of the materialistic, dehumanised people we have slumped into

 

[Kwayera]

I am.. on the fence. I've yet to see a convincing argument either way - I would be uncomfortable with it because it would encourage exploitation.

 

[loquasagacious]

Totally opposed. It's a revolting concept - the very embodiment of the materialistic, dehumanised people we have slumped into

So you would see 11 people die every day, in the US alone, for want of a kidney? That hardly seems the more humane option....

How is this anymore materialistic or dehumanised than the exchange of labour for money? You seem to believe that the marketplace is a new thing - but trade is as older than civilisation.

PS: I get the feeling you won't like my next thread.... "The adoption market: if celebrities can buy babies why shouldn't we?"

 

[katie tully]

I feel like I'd support it.

If people can freely donate organs as is, I see know reason why they shouldn't be allowed to sell the organ - if this is going to promote a higher incidence of donation.

Only issue I foresee is poor people being knocked to the bottom of the list because they can't afford 20k for someones kidney - it'll just leave them on the list waiting for a compatible donor from a brain dead person or something. idk

 

[*TRUE*]

I am.. on the fence. I've yet to see a convincing argument either way - I would be uncomfortable with it because it would encourage exploitation.

I feel much the same.

 

[Iron]

So you would see 11 people die every day, in the US alone, for want of a kidney? That hardly seems the more humane option....

How is this anymore materialistic or dehumanised than the exchange of labour for money? You seem to believe that the marketplace is a new thing - but trade is as older than civilisation.

PS: I get the feeling you won't like my next thread.... "The adoption market: if celebrities can buy babies why shouldn't we?"

I've got nothing against donation of organs. This is the Australian status quo. It ensures dignity and reason is injected into the process, rather than simplistic and irrational greed.

Trade of your own being is not like any other 'exchange of labour' - it is the total and final subordination of the sacred human vessle to market forces which uphold no morals, only greed... The poor and vulnerable would be targeted; only the rich will benifit with better health and longer life. It is nothing short of slavery. It is evil.

 

[Freedom_]

There is really no need for a debate, man is naturally the owner of his/her own body and therefore has the absolute right to do whatever he may wish with it. In my view any government interference is slavery, a condition in which the individual has little or no right of self-ownership.

For as long as selling organs is a voluntary sale, the government has no right to prohibit or restrict such sales.

 

[Iron]

There is really no need for a debate, man is naturally the owner of his/her own body and therefore has the absolute right to do whatever he may wish with it. In my view any government interference is slavery, a condition in which the individual has little or no right of self-ownership.

For as long as selling organs is a voluntary sale, the government has no right to prohibit or restrict such sales.

Youre not talking about freedom though, unless your definition of freedom is more about the freedom of the strong to exploit the weak. You people are the ones who insist that people and the market are rational; organ trading is one of many processes in which life itself is compromised for some external, unthinking, inhuman monster whose only function is to demand more and more sacrifice until the life is gone.
This makes me sick,.

 

[loquasagacious]

I've got nothing against donation of organs. This is the Australian status quo.

A status quo which is not working
eMJA: The shortage of kidneys for transplantation in Australia
Organ hopefuls die waiting - News

I think we can agree that there is a shortage of organs for transplant. So we either let people die or we seek organs. The only place to get more from is other people. This gives us two basic options:
- An organ market
- Compulsory harvesting of deceased organs

A market preserves (even increases) the freedoms and rights of participants. Compulsory harvesting would seem more likely to supply lower quality organs (older/damaged).

 

[Iron]

Gun to my head, I would prefer that rich people die instead of poor people essentially becoming fleshy property to be bought up. Their natural death is far more acceptable than the unnatural dehumanisation of the individual.

If people are less giving, then maybe we should be asking some moral questions about society. The material solution would be nothing but harmful to our humanity and respect for life.

 

[dickiie]

I agree with Iron on this one, much to my own suprise.

What will prevent someone from killing a person, take the organs and sell them on the market?

Although I'll go back for a more thorough read. Please call me out if something prevents organs robbery-homicide.

 

[katie tully]

Binge-drinker Gary Reinbach dies aged 22 | World News | News.com.au

unlucky

but if this guy could buy an organ, would he still be alive?

 

[loquasagacious]

Binge-drinker Gary Reinbach dies aged 22 | World News | News.com.au

unlucky

but if this guy could buy an organ, would he still be alive?

I wonder if an organ market would change rules around not providing transplants to people who do not cease the risky behaviour which caused their condition?

Personally I am uncomfortable with the idea that someone sufficiently wealthy could afford to treat their organs as disposable and replace say their liver on a semi-regular basis...

 

[lychnobity]

I wonder if an organ market would change rules around not providing transplants to people who do not cease the risky behaviour which caused their condition?

Personally I am uncomfortable with the idea that someone sufficiently wealthy could afford to treat their organs as disposable and replace say their liver on a semi-regular basis...

I agree on this one.

But back on topic, a system of abuse could occur.

Doctors split over organ donation switch

The article outlines a surgeon's authority to harvest one's heart 2 minutes after it has stopped working. The brain can still function for another 6 minutes (correct me if I'm wrong). That person has the right to the next 6 minutes before they die. Who is to say that in the pursuit of organ harvesting, someone won't be killed?

Add in the financial aspect and the issue compounds.

The organ market though an idealistic possibility, diminishes human value. In a perfect world, it would be a humane system. But it would be immoral to mutilate and (possibly) murder another because of something as superficial as money.

 

[Graney]

I desperately want to offload one of my kidneys for $$$ while they're still fresh.

Damn this tyranny

Pm me, best offer.

 

[Tully B.]

I would have to be seriously convinced that exploitation could be prevented before agreeing to this and, as far as I can see, there can be no fool-proof way of making an organ market exploitation-free. Plus, I assume that making a market out organs will see the end of the donating of organs, and thus only the rich will thrive from the system.

 

[Brontecat]

For Sale: One Kidney? - Freakonomics Blog - NYTimes.com

There are of course many interesting new business models which might emerge in these markets. Chimp and pig organs selling at lower price-points than human organs, artificial organs, private health insurers buying organs on behalf of clients, markets for organ futures/options/forwards, using organs as collateral, selling liver tissue several times a year, etc etc.

Just like any other contract an organ contract would be bound by contract law, especially relevant would be laws relating to fair treatment in asymmeterical relationships. On top of this there would be other existing applicable legislation and likely new legislation to place some rules around acceptable conduct.

Ultimately though an organ market would mean, more organs for people who need them.

I think this would be open to abuse, particularly from people wanting to earn a quick buck. What is to stop a person selling a chimpanzees organ and saying that it is indeed a humans?
If the doctors see no difference in the organ it is unlikely the person would be caught out, even in the eventuation of death, seeing as there are often high risks surrounding transplants.

I feel like I'd support it.

Only issue I foresee is poor people being knocked to the bottom of the list because they can't afford 20k for someones kidney - it'll just leave them on the list waiting for a compatible donor from a brain dead person or something. idk

Another issue, poorer people cannot afford to pay exhorbitant prices for organs on top of all the ongoing medical bills. How many people would actually donate their organs when they could make some money, particularly in today's materialistic world and financial 'downturn'?

What will prevent someone from killing a person, take the organs and sell them on the market?

Although I'll go back for a more thorough read. Please call me out if something prevents organs robbery-homicide.

+1
Poorer people may see it as a means to earn money, to escape the poverty cycle, they already feel abandoned and alone, so why not?

Personally I am uncomfortable with the idea that someone sufficiently wealthy could afford to treat their organs as disposable and replace say their liver on a semi-regular basis...

+1
Particularly at the risk of taking a valuable resource that could save another's life.


Overall a highly subjective topic, that i personally can see having more flaws than benefits for a majority of individuals and society in general.

 

[loquasagacious]

I would have to be seriously convinced that exploitation could be prevented before agreeing to this and, as far as I can see, there can be no fool-proof way of making an organ market exploitation-free. Plus, I assume that making a market out organs will see the end of the donating of organs, and thus only the rich will thrive from the system.

Not necessarily. Consider that we currently have an economy involving extensive exchange of labour for money, however there are still volunteers.

I imagine that family members would typically donate rather than sell organs to the person requiring a transplant. Also the poor may have their organ needs met by medicare/similar, transplants would for instance probably be a smaller cost to the taxpayer than life support.