Best Weights Program! (2 Viewers)

[A High Way Man]

Ill admit I was kind of trolling with my remark about the Rippetoe (and similar) routines. But I just dont feel right doing it for some reason

1) I joined the gym, Rippetoe seems to be designed for those doing weights at home.
2) $$$ - rippetoe and similar seems to require an insane, over the top food intake. 600g of chicken breast a day, how the fuck do you afford that? and 3 L of milk..lol.
3) I'm gaining weight - i started in march and have gained about 10kg. Though not all of it is muscle.... and ill admit that leg progress is slow

Maybe ill look into Rippetoe when i start plateuing

 

[Graney]

What is your diet now highwayman?

 

[Oliver04]

Ill admit I was kind of trolling with my remark about the Rippetoe (and similar) routines. But I just dont feel right doing it for some reason

1) I joined the gym, Rippetoe seems to be designed for those doing weights at home.
2) $$$ - rippetoe and similar seems to require an insane, over the top food intake. 600g of chicken breast a day, how the fuck do you afford that? and 3 L of milk..lol.
3) I'm gaining weight - i started in march and have gained about 10kg. Though not all of it is muscle.... and ill admit that leg progress is slow

Maybe ill look into Rippetoe when i start plateuing

I appreciate that you admitted that. Takes a lot of balls. Just a few things to consider about the points you raised:

1) Rippetoe runs what's called a 'black iron gym'. These gyms are very rare because they don't cater for the cardio bunnies. Basically it has no mirrors and consists of nothing but power racks, devices for bodyweight exercises and platforms for olympic lifts.

This guy really knows his stuff. If this program is the ideal, why add in other exercises just because they're there? free and bodyweight exercises are just better for hypertrophy.

2) No matter what routine you use you'll need to eat big, muscles are calorie expensive and your body simply won't produce it if you're in deficit. As you grow your calorie intake will increase.

I don't doubt that you can eat just over maintenance, I've done it, but you won't be able to make extraordinary gains by doing so (eg 20kg a year).

3L of milk = $3.50
500g chicken breast = $3.50
My double patty hamburger, chips and a diet coke = $9.

It's not too bad price-wise.

3) You could probably be gaining more weight doing Rippetoe's routine, for noobs everything works, just that some things work better than others.

Eventually your body will get much more particular about how it responds to things and microloading, programming and exercise selection will become much more of an issue. This is something dealt with in texas method which isn't in a conventional split.

 

[A High Way Man]

I appreciate that you admitted that. Takes a lot of balls. Just a few things to consider about the points you raised:

1) Rippetoe runs what's called a 'black iron gym'. These gyms are very rare because they don't cater for the cardio bunnies. Basically it has no mirrors and consists of nothing but power racks, devices for bodyweight exercises and platforms for olympic lifts.

This guy really knows his stuff. If this program is the ideal, why add in other exercises just because they're there? free and bodyweight exercises are just better for hypertrophy.

2) No matter what routine you use you'll need to eat big, muscles are calorie expensive and your body simply won't produce it if you're in deficit. As you grow your calorie intake will increase.

I don't doubt that you can eat just over maintenance, I've done it, but you won't be able to make extraordinary gains by doing so (eg 20kg a year).

3L of milk = $3.50
500g chicken breast = $3.50
My double patty hamburger, chips and a diet coke = $9.

It's not too bad price-wise.

3) You could probably be gaining more weight doing Rippetoe's routine, for noobs everything works, just that some things work better than others.

Eventually your body will get much more particular about how it responds to things and microloading, programming and exercise selection will become much more of an issue. This is something dealt with in texas method which isn't in a conventional split.

500g for $3.50, i know your not getting it at woolies

 

[A High Way Man]

What is your diet now highwayman?

Its not consistent, but

8-30 wake up

8-45 nutrigrain with full cream milk

9am START WORK

10-30 chicken slices and some skim milk

12-00 lunch, usually chicken breast with rice and lentils or pasta

2-30 egg dish

3-30 peanut butter sandwich / chicken slice sandwich + tuna

4-30 almonds

5pm FINISH WORK

5-30 snack, such as nutrigrain again

7-30 oats + protein drink + chickpeas / tuna

8pm workout

9pm protein shake

9-45 chicken/meat with rice and lentils

10-30 yoghurt/milk + almonds

 

[Oliver04]

that's quite extensive, and would probably resemble mine if it were less spread out and had more pizza.

 

[loquasagacious]

so basically u just stand up, then down, then up, etc?

Yep that's pretty much it.

deadlifts are pretty taxing on the body, so 1x5 once a week is all you need.

I think it's fine to do more than that. Obviously there is a risk of over training but to paraphrase Rippetoe; do you think competitive power/oly lifters only train a lift once a week?

That said I wouldn't recommend 1RM every day. I recommend mixing up the volume throughout the week and week to week. Everything from 10x10 down to 5x1 and everything in between.

Or pyramid through them: 10 - 8 - 5 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 5 - 10

Vary the rep scheme to develop both strength and endurance in the muscles. Also it is more applicable to the oly lifts but high-rep, low-weight, high-speed lifting is great cardio. Try busting out 100 reps of 20kg CJs as quickly as possible.

btw omie, the exercise you're worried about the overhead press will correct shoulder imbalances and stop you injuring your rotorcuff.

Even better than the press is the handstand pushup.

 

[Oliver04]

I think it's fine to do more than that. Obviously there is a risk of over training but to paraphrase Rippetoe; do you think competitive power/oly lifters only train a lift once a week?

That said I wouldn't recommend 1RM every day. I recommend mixing up the volume throughout the week and week to week. Everything from 10x10 down to 5x1 and everything in between.

Or pyramid through them: 10 - 8 - 5 - 3 - 2 - 1 - 1 - 1 - 5 - 10

Vary the rep scheme to develop both strength and endurance in the muscles. Also it is more applicable to the oly lifts but high-rep, low-weight, high-speed lifting is great cardio. Try busting out 100 reps of 20kg CJs as quickly as possible.

Its more complex than that.

Deadlifts are only done for 1x5 because they're brutally taxng on lower backs and hamstrings. Coupled with squats this is a recipe for over training. Many advanced lifters can only deadlift once a fortnight.

I'd recommend them in lower reps too so that form can be maintained.

Noobs could do them x2 a week, certainly not anyone past novice stage.

Even better than the press is the handstand pushup.

I would disagree as its almost impossible to load.

 

[quik.]

Nice chuckle at the 'dangerous squats and deadlifts' part of the thread

To those considering/starting on a program but wondering about changes, don't. Unless you have some significant time under the bar, either stick to the program or admit to yourself that you are not doing program x, but a variation thereof. Also consider that there is a reason someone with more experience than yourself has made the program that way etc

If you guys want an experience that gets you closer to god etc have a crack at 20rep breathing squats. Will put some hair on your chest haha

 

[Oliver04]

If you guys want an experience that gets you closer to god etc have a crack at 20rep breathing squats. Will put some hair on your chest haha

Note the 'closer to god' part

 

[BreezerD]

Pyramid [...] Vary the rep scheme to develop both strength and endurance in the muscles.

This might fly in year 12 PDHPE... but not in a powerlifting gym.

 

[loquasagacious]

Frequency of deadlifting (or any other big compound moves for that matter):

Sure a typical bodybuilding program will have them once a week or once a fortnight. And sure those guys put on some great mass (and decent strength). But what does an olympic lifting or powerlifting program have? What are the Eastern European and Chinese national teams doing? 26 sets of 5 heavy compound lifts a year?

Olympic Weightlifting - QWA - Training Programs - Advanced
MIKE'S GYM | Programs

Don't get me wrong there is a real risk of overtraining but I think it is foolish to think that more frequent training is impossible or not a useful tool. And again to emphasise that I'm not saying to do 1RM sessions several times a week.

HSPU v Shoulder Press:

I agree that it isn't really possible to load the HSPU; weighted vests are possible but uncomfortable and they are very limited in how heavy they can be. However having said that it is possible to make it progressively harder (not in order):
- By increasing the volume (reps and/or sets)
- Using paralletes to increase depth
- Clapping handstand pushup
- HSPU on gymnastics rings
- One armed HSPU
- HSPU on chairs
- One-armed HSPU (couldn't find a video/picture)
- HSPU using chains/something else unstable as paralletes.

Happily concede though that these are all much more technical than simply putting more weight on the bar for a shoulder press. HSPU is great to build up all of the smaller muscles which help stabilise the joint and I've found that they helped improve the weight I can shift on the shoulder press and reduced my shoulder injury rate.

I still shoulder press though because lifting heavy things overhead is a fundamental skill and a key component of the CJ.

Varying volume:

Powerlifters are interested in strength. Not mass. Not endurance. Not speed. They want to lift the maximum possible ammount. That means working towards and aiming for 1RM increases. Of course someone wanting to build 1RM wouldn't make very good progress working at 10 reps and that's why they don't.

For non-powerlifters though; people who want to build strength, size, speed, endurance, the 'whole package' varying the rep and set pattern is a great tool. The body has different types of muscle fibres and different energy production systems. Obviously there is overlap between these however it is possible and perfectly reasonable to train them relatively seperately using different workouts.

This is the same principle of developing distance running and weightlifting at the same time, you won't be as good in either skill as someone who trains just one of them, but you'll be much better than the specialist is - in the skill they don't train.

Pyramidding within a workout can be a useful tool to warm-up/cool-down when going for a max weight effort. It also allows you to use some pre-fatigued training (if you're into that).

Varying it week to week however is a good way to train the range of muscle fibres and energy production systems. Doing 100 x 20kgs CJs works the body in a very different way to 5 x 1RM CJs. The same is true of the other big lifts. Squats, deads, snatchs, presses, power cleans, etc etc.

 

[BreezerD]

Frequency of deadlifting (or any other big compound moves for that matter):

Sure a typical bodybuilding program will have them once a week or once a fortnight. And sure those guys put on some great mass (and decent strength). But what does an olympic lifting or powerlifting program have? What are the Eastern European and Chinese national teams doing? 26 sets of 5 heavy compound lifts a year?

Olympic Weightlifting - QWA - Training Programs - Advanced
MIKE'S GYM | Programs

I'll leave the handstand press thing to Oliver...

Re: deadlifts. Yes, they can be done more than once a week and recovered from adequately, even by more advanced trainees, but besides anything else it's just not always necessary. If your squat goes up, your deadlift will go up, but not necessarily vice versa, so it makes sense to train the squat more.

Olympic lifters rarely deadlift, so I'm not sure why you used that example.... and then linked to programmes with no deadlifting in them? Wtf?

By the way, Sheiko-style powerlifting programming has lifters deadlifting once a week...




Out of interest, what are your max lifts and bodyweight?

 

[loquasagacious]

Agreed that olympic lifters rarely deadlift, for convenience though I lumped the olympic lifts in with the dead and squat. They are all massive compound movements, using multiple joints, which move both the torso and bar. A CJ essentially includes a deadlift and a snatch has an overhead squat. Close enough to be comparable and in a quick google it was easier to find some example workouts

As for my stats I currently have a cartilage tear in my right hip, it basically precludes me from doing any of the big lifts until after surgery and rehab.

Having said that my stats were:

Bodyweight: 75kg
Squat: 150kg
Deadlift: 150kg
Bench: 80kg
Press: 60kg
CJ: 65kg
Snatch: 50kg

Training with the crossfit main site WOD. Nothing too impressive in my numbers, especially my bench which I've always lagged on and which crossfit doesn't really train. Also just starting on the olympic lifts.

After the rehab I'd like to get towards, as a multiplier of bodyweight:

Squat: 2.5
Deadlift: 2.5
Bench: 1.5
Press: 1
CJ: 1.5
Snatch: 1

Unfortunately all that's a long way off...

 

[quik.]

For non-powerlifters though; people who want to build strength, size, speed, endurance, the 'whole package' varying the rep and set pattern is a great tool. The body has different types of muscle fibres and different energy production systems. Obviously there is overlap between these however it is possible and perfectly reasonable to train them relatively seperately using different workouts.

Regarding muscle fibre recruitment: you don't train them seperately, per say. As needed (ie heavier weight) the body will additionally recruit other fibres. There aren't a specific set of fibres that handle your 70% max, it is a combination of type 1 and 2 fibres, etc. Your 1RM won't just use your high threshold muscle fibres, it will use all of them.

Regarding muscle fibres and weight training: studies have shown that weight training in the 9-12 rep range increase slow twitch fibre numbers. This surprised me, but there you go. I haven't delved too far into further studies yet so I can't comment on 1RM training and such on fibre type.

Energy production systems and weight training aren't really a concern as resistance movements are over relatively quickly anyway. You will initially use up ATP stores, after 5RM you will start chewing into anaerobic sources. If you settle into steady state and aerobic glycolysis etc I would say you are you using sissy weights.

 

[loquasagacious]

Agreed that your body doesn't simply ignore a certain set of muscle-fibres at a certain rep-range, however the studies do show that different ranges train the fibres to a different extent, and cause a different physiological response. Otherwise long distance runners would all have massve legs.

As far as energy pathways 1RM-5RM training will be hammering the phosphagen and glygogen energy pathways (anerobic), training for more reps will start to bring the oxidative (aerobic) pathway onstream.

I think it's important to train all three pathways to develop a well rounded fitness. Run 5km, climb a couple of walls and lift some heavy object overhead. I don't deny a heavy crossfit influence on my thinking but GPP was a big influence before I encountered Crossfit.

 

[Oliver04]

Breeze got the deadlift point so I'll hit up the others.

[
HSPU v Shoulder Press:

I agree that it isn't really possible to load the HSPU; weighted vests are possible but uncomfortable and they are very limited in how heavy they can be. However having said that it is possible to make it progressively harder (not in order):
- By increasing the volume (reps and/or sets)
- Using paralletes to increase depth
- Clapping handstand pushup
- HSPU on gymnastics rings
- One armed HSPU
- HSPU on chairs
- One-armed HSPU (couldn't find a video/picture)
- HSPU using chains/something else unstable as paralletes.

Happily concede though that these are all much more technical than simply putting more weight on the bar for a shoulder press. HSPU is great to build up all of the smaller muscles which help stabilise the joint and I've found that they helped improve the weight I can shift on the shoulder press and reduced my shoulder injury rate.

I still shoulder press though because lifting heavy things overhead is a fundamental skill and a key component of the CJ.

You identified the problems yourself. They are too difficult to load and too technical. Don't get me wrong, the body still moves through space to a greater extent than a press but its just too difficult to quantify.

I'd rather pick 5-6 compounds and 2-3 isolations and go with them. For this I think the press is better.

b]Varying volume:[/b]

Powerlifters are interested in strength. Not mass. Not endurance. Not speed. They want to lift the maximum possible ammount. That means working towards and aiming for 1RM increases. Of course someone wanting to build 1RM wouldn't make very good progress working at 10 reps and that's why they don't.

Yay and nay.

Nobody's gonna be an awesome powerlifter at 6'0 and 80kg (maybe an okay deadlifter). They just dont have the back muscle to support the bar. Hypertrophy is core to powerlifting but its distributed differently - whilst bodybuilders want big muscle bodies (eg biceps, sweep of the quads) powerlifters are more interested in muscle around the joints (eg the elbows and lower quads) which help them lift more weight.

Speed and power is also very important, hence all the emphasis on westside and sheiko.

For non-powerlifters though; people who want to build strength, size, speed, endurance, the 'whole package' varying the rep and set pattern is a great tool. The body has different types of muscle fibres and different energy production systems. Obviously there is overlap between these however it is possible and perfectly reasonable to train them relatively seperately using different workouts.

If you look at a repetition continuum you'll notice that 5 reps develop strength, myo hypertrophy, power and sac hypertrophy (the latter to a reasonable extent) so technically you can get the best of all worlds with 5 reps.

You're over thinking things. Pyramiding is difficult to do, because fatigue prevents you from maxing out at your true RM for whatever reps after your first set. I think you'd be better off with 5x5 throughout your work.

 

[Oliver04]

Having said that my stats were:

Bodyweight: 75kg
Squat: 150kg
Deadlift: 150kg
Bench: 80kg
Press: 60kg
CJ: 65kg
Snatch: 50kg

Solid lifts and good luck with your recovery.

 

[loquasagacious]

Press:

5-6 compounds and 2-3 isolations all for the shoulders?? I tend to make my workouts up on the fly and build my workouts around a handful of compounds and some stabiliser exercises. So this morning was a shoulder focus:

- 5x5 one arm shoulder press
- 5x10 pullups
- 5x10 handstand pushups
- 3x10 front raise into a press (using plates)
- 3x10 upright rows (using a weight plate, pinch grip)
- A quick 300 medecine ball passes with my training partner

Reps/Pyrammiding:

I've used the 5x5 model before and definitely showed some good results. Took a while to get used to it for squats though.

Realistically people don't get to their 'real' 1RM in a normal workout anyway. Read an interesting T-nation article a while ago which talked about the 'regular 1RM' and the 'max max 1RM'. The first is what you can hit in the gym without any real preperation, the second is reached by gradually reducing reps over several months.

Pyrammidding through sets is a great way of reaching a higher regular 1RM in a workout, after all it's just warm up sets to get everything warmed and firing right. Coming back down from the max it's a great way of training pre-fatigued muscles.

 

[throwaway]

the other day i did like 4 pushups then hit up a protein shake lolz