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A Question of Christian Theology (4 Viewers)

Teclis

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yea..you and teclis lost, failed, etc
argument has been won
Shut up... the guy who says "Na you're a dog... *copy paste from some morons website a whole bunch of out of context verses*... THERE I HAVE EVIDENCE HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YOU'RE AN IDIOT FOR BELIEVING IN GOD... Any valid Historian who believes that the claims of the New Testament are to be taken seriously is obviously a Christian bigot who's corrupting the evidence... and my interpretation of the Bible is obviously FAR superior to that of people who study it for a living... oh and all Atheists are ALWAYS reasoned people with solid arguments that should be believe just because they are atheists".... does not "win" an argument.
 
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actually, dog's dont believe in god, that makes them smarter than you..
calling you a dog, is insulting to dogs (rather than you)
 

Sultun

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can we ban him for being a subtle troll as well?
Completely agree. These Atheists have become far to outspoken...I mean its bad enough they dissent agiasnt God and his true followers (brother Teclics you have done well for Father), but to insult one of his chosen people is surley agiasnt his Divine Order.
 

Methalos

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Firstly, I'm only coming to this thread just now and I can't be bothered to read 11 pages of bickering so I am going to simply write what I think about the original questions and maybe preempt a few objections. I apologise if I end up repeating what other people have said.

To begin, I'll deal with the apparent response to the question "Why does god send non-believers to hell and have them tortured for eternity?" What the Christian should have started with is tackling this particular view of hell. The biblical view of hell is not torture in the way this person is thinking, though it is in my opinion worse. Biblical hell is foremostly separation from God. From this and the belief that God is the source of good comes the conclusion that hell is bad. Really bad. There is quite literally nothing good about hell or in hell. Now what the Christian should have pointed out, rather than some strange thing about hell being the true wish of non-believers, is that God is firstly just then merciful (You can't be merciful until there is justice. Since we are talking about the God who created and thus defined the universe, it only makes sense that God should by just first and then merciful). When you reject God by rights you reject all that is good. This is when the mercy kicks in. God has given you every chance to repent and to be forgiven, and assuming you haven't died since you posted, that chance still stands. However if you reject the mercy when you have already rejected God, why should God do anything but separate himself from you. i.e. Remove all good from you. i.e. Send you to hell.
OK
Now that I've dealt with the framework of the question its time to preempt some of those problems. People, I imagine, are going to have some issues with "rights". What I mean is they are going to say I have a right to [insert sin here]. Part of Christianity is admitting that you do not know what is best and trusting that the Lord does. He is after all the source of all things right. That is the only truthful answer to that objection that I can think of.

Another objection is going to be of the form: "What about [insert type of person here] Will they really go to hell?" There are two cases here. The first is when that person has been exposed to Christianity and has rejected it. I think I have already been quite clear about what happens from then on. The other case is if someone has not been exposed to Christianity. My answer is that strictly speaking I don't know. What I do know is that God is just and God is merciful. I also know that God knows what they would have done. Incidentally this is one of the many reasons why evangelism is so important too many Christians.
OK
Moving on to the question:"Why do I have to have an afterlife?" The simplest answer is that is the way things are. That's not particularly helpful so let me explain. If you accept, as Christians do, that God created humankind, and specifically that he created them as the pinnacle of creation, it is much clearer. You see, the one thing that all humans have that your budgie and your dog do not have is the soul. This is why humans have an afterlife. It is the soul that lives on but there is a new body, just as there is a new creation. I know you said not to say "because you are made in his image" but this is essentially the biblical answer. I think your objection to it has been that it is in a sort of religious jargon. I hope my explanation makes more sense.

Now I think the next objection is going to be something along the lines of "I God is so loving/merciful, why can't he [insert anything here]" Firstly its not that God can't do it, it is that he won't do it. As I have said God is just and it is against his character to go against that. (I am not claiming to understand God's mind or anything like that, I am merely looking at the way He is presented in the bible) For example:
"If God is so merciful/loving why won't he end suffering?"
Answer: God is actually so merciful that he has ended suffering. All you have to do is accept his forgiveness and repent from your wrongdoing.
Objection: Why do Christians suffer too?
Answer: Christians sin too. We are part of the same sinful world and come under the same curse of original sin, but the shortness of this suffering is meaningless in comparison with an eternity of salvation.
Objection: If God is just how is it that he can be so merciful as to provide salvation?
Answer: It is possible because Jesus took the sin of the world (past future and present) upon himself and acted as a sacrifice. So God's just nature is satisfied.
Objection: But why is it possible for one man to atone for all mankind?
Answer: Because that one man was entirely God as well.
Objection: How can someone be both man and God?
Answer: Because those things aren't mutually exclusive. A square is entirely a rectangle and entirely a rhombus even though a rectangle is not a rhombus. Its the same thing.

I think I've more than answered the questions that were specifically answered as well as some others that weren't but knowing the nature of the internet there are probably people who have some other questions too. Email me if you are curious. My email is j.alteclansing.t@gmail.com

Oh and as to whether or not I respect theologians as academics, I do. They are often highly intelligent and insightful. The thing that seems to be the problem for you is that you don't recognise the validity of literary study as an academic pursuit - for if you don't recognise the bible as historical or as at least having historical relevance or as philosophical or as fundamentally important to life itself (and I expect that you don't to at least some of those) - surely you must think it is a work of literature. But there are academics who are devoted to the study of literature, as well as to the study of history and philosophy. Just because Mr. Dawkins thinks science is the only discipline that matters doesn't mean that it is true.
 
Last edited:

tommykins

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with spaces

indents

DONT THEY TEACH U HOW TO WRITE ESSAYS IN HIGH SCHOOL
 

Methalos

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Still no indents but spaced out. Tab didn't work for indents....
 

krumper

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These questions on Christian Theology are quite good. At least your not a person who says they are a Christian but don't walk the talk - hypocrites (aka Pharisees). If you see a Christian not acting Christ like, point it out to him/her please. You should because you can and you should. Our lives are meant to attract people not repel people to our message.

But yea, your question why do I have to have an afterlife? Fair enough. Who wants to go to hell? Can't we just .. die and not exist. Neither hell nor heaven. Your choice should dictate where you want to go or not to go. I don't have a good enough answer for this question. I need to search too.

Another objection is going to be of the form: "What about [insert type of person here] Will they really go to hell?"... The other case is if someone has not been exposed to Christianity. My answer is that strictly speaking I don't know. What I do know is that God is just and God is merciful. I also know that God knows what they would have done. Incidentally this is one of the many reasons why evangelism is so important too many Christians.
Props to Methalos for his awesome response.

I guess you can only really understand Christian Theology if you open up the bible and read what it has to say for itself. Christians can only say so much.

kthxsbye
 

Libby01P

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Thankyou Methalos and thankyou Krumper. Very nice answers. Better than mine :)
 

birdy17

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Second question,

Do you respect "theologians" as an academic, even if they have done a phD?

I mean is there really any difference between them and someone doing their phD on Harry Potter?

well there is, one has studied the bible and the other harry potter.
:p

but really, shouldn't you treat anyone with a phD as an academic, regardless of what subject they did?
cause if you didn't call someone academic cause it was for theology, sorta alittle discriminatory.

just a thought.
 

birdy17

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Why do I have to have an afterlife? I mean my dog and bird get to just die. And don’t say “because your made in his image”- I didn’t consent!!!!!!
you have an afterlife... well thinking about it maybe this is just rewording what you said not to say but seriously,
because that's the way God made things to be.

as for consenting...well, that's like complaining about the family your born into.
nobody gets to choose, it's just the way things are.



I'd have to say the common Christian response holds the worst logic ever- so the "loving" god not only needs to lock you away from him (because you "choose it"- something I'd argue, having "faith" is impossible for many atheists!) but you need to also suffer torment. At this point I guess all you can do is laugh...
question: why is it impossible for an athiest to have faith?
 

dieburndie

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Answer: God is actually so merciful that he has ended suffering. All you have to do is accept his forgiveness and repent from your wrongdoing.
Stopped reading here.
 

eldore44

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Another question that might be interesting for responses -

If we say, with the assumption that God exists - however, a catch being that believers are now condemned to Hell whilst non-believers are sentenced to Heaven (of course, this would be written in the Bible/scriptures/what not), would people still believe? They can say this 'hypothetical' makes no sense, but if we roll with their definition of 'God' we can simply say "It's the way God works, he isn't bounded by logic".

I'm willing to bet alot of people would drop their beliefs
thats some philosophical shit right there.
 

Cookie182

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Firstly, I'm only coming to this thread just now and I can't be bothered to read 11 pages of bickering so I am going to simply write what I think about the original questions and maybe preempt a few objections. I apologise if I end up repeating what other people have said.

To begin, I'll deal with the apparent response to the question "Why does god send non-believers to hell and have them tortured for eternity?" What the Christian should have started with is tackling this particular view of hell. The biblical view of hell is not torture in the way this person is thinking, though it is in my opinion worse. Biblical hell is foremostly separation from God. From this and the belief that God is the source of good comes the conclusion that hell is bad. Really bad. There is quite literally nothing good about hell or in hell. Now what the Christian should have pointed out, rather than some strange thing about hell being the true wish of non-believers, is that God is firstly just then merciful (You can't be merciful until there is justice. Since we are talking about the God who created and thus defined the universe, it only makes sense that God should by just first and then merciful). When you reject God by rights you reject all that is good. This is when the mercy kicks in. God has given you every chance to repent and to be forgiven, and assuming you haven't died since you posted, that chance still stands. However if you reject the mercy when you have already rejected God, why should God do anything but separate himself from you. i.e. Remove all good from you. i.e. Send you to hell.
A few things...I won't address all, too much repetition...


Firstly we assumed the axiom of God's existence. But your argument then runs like this:

1/ God exists (assumed).

2/ He created this universe (flow from 1 given the definition of God as an ultimate creator).

3/ Everything created by him is good (begs the question)

4/ Absence of god is therefore by 3, 'bad' (as above).

5/ Therefore, rejecting god (being 'seperated') is going to be ultimately bad.

Can you see the problems with these arguments? The human spin. Even if a creator is postulated, no other primate such as yourself can know of their intentions. For your argument to work there is the sneaky assumption that god is the source of good, this has no prior proof. In fact, your setting up a fraemwork of completely contingent universal ethics- that everything is absolute to the will of god.

I could make this argument, with the same validity-

1/ God exists (assumed).

2/ He created this universe (flow from 1 given the definition of God as an ultimate creator).

3/ Everything created by him is bad (begs the question)

4/ Absence of god is therefore by 3, 'good' (as above).

5/ Therefore, rejecting god (being 'seperated') is going to be ultimately good.

Good and bad are meaningless independently in this framework. In fact, if god is only a source of goodness and all he creates is 'good', then how can 'bad' come to be? 'Bad' must be nothingness? Therefore, hell would equate to no afterlife at all. Otherwise hell would violate your interpreation and have to be SOMETHING...leading to implications of living torture (our most imaginable "badness").

If god created my soul as you say, it must be good.

Note though, the "soul" resides on the same presuppositions. Once again it is supported by no evidence. Since we know we have a common ancestor, at what point do souls disappear? Which lower primates have souls or is it only homo sapiens? We won't be homo sapiens forever either, will our future species have souls?
 

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