Fat Tax (2 Viewers)

[redmayne]

to: sylvesterbr

do you have a good life? relatively happy? enjoy a few luxuries here and there?

i see you have access to a computer, presumably food, hopefully friends and family.

that's because of the way the country is run. so shut the fuck up and get real. if government is to work there have to be some restrictions. if there's no government nothing works.

get in touch with reality.

 

[SylviaB]

Funny, I've never seen you express care for the lives of the poor before.

I care about the lives of the poor as much as anyone.

The point is, this is a perfect example of how left wing policies HURT the poor.

Healthy food is not more expensive than unhealthy. That's complete and utter rubbish. I work in a supermarket, and by far the cheapest stuff is fruit. By far. And there are many other healthy foods that are no more expensive than unhealthy. Please don't make up shit like that.

lol i used to work at coles

to feed your family, it would be far more expensive to be healthy

And your last point there...are you serious? The expense of caring for fat people is the health system's fault? That's like saying cancer isn't the problem, the body is. There is no fast way to reduce the cost of healthcare for obesity, apart from stopping the actual obesity. What a stupid point.

I think you missed the point of my point.

Say that the government said it would pay for all my expenses in life.

So I think, great, I buy, for example, a shitload of booze and get smashed every night.

This causes the government to have to spend a lot of money, so they ban alcohol.

Now, does the problem lie with alcohol? No, of course not, the problem lies with the systme where the government pays for my shit.

 

[Lentern]

Ridiculous proposition, rather than punish the victims the government should stem the flow of these poisons on the general public. If you want to tax anything or anyone put the tax on the manufacturers, if they opt to simply pass on the tax to the general public then if nothing more it will act as a price deterrent.

 

[SylviaB]

Ridiculous proposition, rather than punish the victims the government should stem the flow of these poisons on the general public. If you want to tax anything or anyone put the tax on the manufacturers, if they opt to simply pass on the tax to the general public then if nothing more it will act as a price deterrent.

why should manufacturers be punished for providing goods that the public wants?

 

[Phoenix Fury]

Why are some people so eager to restrict our freedom and introduce laws to affect every aspect of our lives it's fucking insane!

 

[Slidey]

Con:
- We must oppose the state/taxes in all instances
- Completely privatising healthcare would be a better measure

I voted 'yes' since your supposed cons are a load of crap which would appeal only to the 5% of the population that is Libertarian.

Truth be told I'm neutral on the issue.

 

[redmayne]

I care about the lives of the poor as much as anyone.

The point is, this is a perfect example of how left wing policies HURT the poor.



lol i used to work at coles

to feed your family, it would be far more expensive to be healthy




I think you missed the point of my point.

Say that the government said it would pay for all my expenses in life.

So I think, great, I buy, for example, a shitload of booze and get smashed every night.

This causes the government to have to spend a lot of money, so they ban alcohol.

Now, does the problem lie with alcohol? No, of course not, the problem lies with the systme where the government pays for my shit.

Hahaha left wing policies hurt the poor. Yeah, that'll be the day.

Unlike libertarian policies which are...what exactly. Do nothing. That's what they are. They don't do anything to or for the poor. They abandon the poor and tell them they've gotta help themselves.

Wrong. Just wrong. Not more expensive at all. If you buy unprocessed healthy goods your money goes a lot further. You get so much more value in making your own meals. As opposed to some processed piece of shit that's been lying in a warehouse for 3 years and costs about 20 times what it cost to make.

I think you're missing the point of your point. You don't have one. You've talked without saying anything.

 

[BlackDragon]

Yes libertarian policies support an overly simplistic view of society. They say a child born into a really poor family has the same freedoms as everyone, when really his opportunities are completely restrained by the circumstances of his life. At least the leftist point of view actually recognises this and attempts to create freedoms for people in the real sense. Not just the simplistic liberty to do so.

 

[SylviaB]

Holy shit you're a moron.

Hahaha left wing policies hurt the poor. Yeah, that'll be the day.

Left wing policy: Let's tax business to fund social programs to help the poor.

What happens: Cost of living increases, which hurts the poor more than anyone else, and hurts them more than the 'social programs' can ever help them.

Unlike libertarian policies which are...what exactly. Do nothing. That's what they are. They don't do anything to or for the poor. They abandon the poor and tell them they've gotta help themselves.

GIVING MONEY TO POOR PEOPLE DOESN'T MAKE THEM LESS POOR

capitalism gets people out of poverty by allowing them to earn their own wealth.

left wing policy destroys wealth, destroys jobs and creates a state dependant society

I think you're missing the point of your point. You don't have one. You've talked without saying anything.

why do you even post if you're posting mindless garbage without refuting my arguments.

 

[BlackDragon]

capitalism gets people out of poverty by allowing them to earn their own wealth.

This view of society is too simplistic.

Positive and Negative Liberty (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[SylviaB]

Yes libertarian policies support an overly simplistic view of society. They say a child born into a really poor family has the same freedoms as everyone, when really he is completely restrained by the circumstances of his life.

How?

-we have school choice in this country, so he can go to any public school he wants to. And if you work hard, anyone can achieve good results at a public school. I should know, because I went to a VERY crappy high school, and yet I got an excellent ATAR score, a better ATAR than most of my private school buddies. And not just the crap Mildura private schools, I mean the big private schools in Melbourne

-We have the HECS system so he can go to any university he can get into

At least the leftist point of view actually recognises this and attempts to address freedom in the positive sense. Not just the simplistic liberty to do so.

LEFTIST POLICY DOES NOT GET PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY


example: left wing policies designed to help the poor have ruined Detroit.

 

[BlackDragon]

An example of a poorly executed plan is not a blight against an entire perspective on governance. What about the uncountable amount of times when there state intervention has been required because of market failure? Do you think that ruins your libertarian perspective? Because according to you it does.

 

[SylviaB]

An example of a poorly executed plan is not a blight against an entire perspective on governance.

Seriously it happens all the time. Like i said above, taxing corporations to fund social programs, a very leftist policy, hurts the poor because it raises teh cost of living.

What about the uncountable amount of times when there state intervention has been required because of market failure? Do you think that ruins your libertarian perspective? Because according to you it does.

lol give me an example

nearly always the "market failure" was because of stupid statist regulation in the first place

 

[BlackDragon]

How?

-we have school choice in this country, so he can go to any public school he wants to. And if you work hard, anyone can achieve good results at a public school. I should know, because I went to a VERY crappy high school, and yet I got an excellent ATAR score, a better ATAR than most of my private school buddies. And not just the crap Mildura private schools, I mean the big private schools in Melbourne

-We have the HECS system so he can go to any university he can get into



LEFTIST POLICY DOES NOT GET PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY


example: left wing policies designed to help the poor have ruined Detroit.

I don't see why people can't work hard when there are state mechanisms in place as well? Besides, the school you went to was publicly funded, what if it were all left up to the market? Do you think everyone would be able to afford it? No. Libertarian policies work to ingrain poverty by not recognising the actual nature of society in terms of what freedoms people actually have.

People need access to school to be able to work hard.

So what's your response to that?

Besides, markets fail to provide for everyone all the time. If there weren't at least some regulation certain groups would naturally not have the same freedoms as others. Segregative policies are definitely a factor, not to mention the fact that poorer people will be will find it much harder to access fundamental things such as education and health.

 

[SylviaB]

I don't see why people can't work hard when there are state mechanisms in place as well?

wat

Besides, the school you went to was publicly funded, what if it were all left up to the market? Do you think everyone would be able to afford it? No.

millions of people rely upon public education to go to school, so companies obviously have economic incentive to provide schooling they can afford, and because there would be a MUCH larger market, more schools would open, meaning greater competition and lower prices.

and they would be able to provide cheap education because the current system has demonstrated that private schools achieve better results and at the same time spend less money than public schools.

the only reason private education is so expensive right now is that generally only the wealthy send their kids to private schools, and as a result they use academic achievement or even just prestige to earn business, rather than competitive fees

Libertarian policies work to ingrain poverty by not recognising the actual nature of society in terms of what freedoms people actually have.

you ignored my reply to this point. What freedoms do the poor not have?


and seriously, look at America. Every other country went with the leftist anti-freedom approach, America went with the capitalist & freedom approach, and they ended up being the most prosperous society in history

look at China, a communist country, but the people are so poor that they have to accept dollar a day jobs to avoid starving. Oh, and hey look, what stops them from starving? jobs provided by western capitalist corporations.

 

[BlackDragon]

What don't they have? Learn the distinction between different types of freedom.

READ:

Positive and Negative Liberty (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Planck]

I agree with nemo. Privatising healthcare is a really bad thing to do. Just look at the mess america's health care system is in. Health care should always be at least partly public, so that all people have equal access.

America's health care system isn't really privatised, it's a clusterfuck of rent-seekers and bastards.

They lobbied to have legislation passed to make it illegal to buy insurance across state lines, effectively fucking all forms of competition.

State owned good, private owned bad isn't really the right approach to this situation.

The Singaporean one is. Health care accounts, much like super accounts, liens from wages, and free care for the poor.

 

[adriano_negr0]

no

 

[BlackDragon]

and seriously, look at America. Every other country went with the leftist anti-freedom approach, America went with the capitalist & freedom approach, and they ended up being the most prosperous society in history

look at China, a communist country, but the people are so poor that they have to accept dollar a day jobs to avoid starving. Oh, and hey look, what stops them from starving? jobs provided by western capitalist corporations.

I'm quite sure that poverty existed in China before communism. It didn't just start. China is a DEVELOPING country, you see. Look at India...Different political system, same level of poverty. America is a DEVELOPED country...with high levels of poverty compared to other OECD nations.

 

[badquinton304]

How?

-we have school choice in this country, so he can go to any public school he wants to. And if you work hard, anyone can achieve good results at a public school. I should know, because I went to a VERY crappy high school, and yet I got an excellent ATAR score, a better ATAR than most of my private school buddies. And not just the crap Mildura private schools, I mean the big private schools in Melbourne

-We have the HECS system so he can go to any university he can get into



LEFTIST POLICY DOES NOT GET PEOPLE OUT OF POVERTY

Looks like you can get out of poverty within leftist policy. (note: I do not care about left and right but public is generally percieved as left)