Re: Jesus fucking Christ - IDF massacres Turks on board humanitarian ship
I'm 100% certain the fact that they were in International Waters isn't in dispute, dude.
I'm sick of trolling, this is too serious a topic to dismiss with rhetoric.
Israel is getting completely out of hand, in an international sense and now that the Obama administration is in power in the whitehouse, the extreme rabbinic right is trying to see how far they can push the international community whilst still having US support.
Cast Lead was a disgrace as well, as is the blockade. Israel has a reasonable right to search and seize weapons going into gaza and the west bank, but also has a reasonable responsibility to not kill gazans and Palestinians willy nilly. Israel's constant overreaction to everything that seems even slightly pro Palestinian and their insane reaction to criticism, labelling it as Anti-Semitic is beyond ridiculous.
They are acting in the manner of a rogue state, and were they not our allies our politicians would be up in arms about this disgrace. Though this was a staged photo-op most likely by Palestinian sympathisers, Israel has given Hamas' claims far more substance when they've proven they will attack a convoy of what appears to be mostly humanitarian aid workers and the like.
Just like Cast Lead was a chance for the rabbinic right to seize popular power before the end of GWB's reign and the Knesset elections, this is another gratuitous use of unacceptable force motivated entirely by a self-satisfactory insane zionism that seems to be infecting Israel's parliament and public sentiment each and every day.
Whilst I'd err on the side of caution in promoting the views put forward by that particularly right-wing member of the Knesset that said the British were dogs, saying that that was probably a sound bite used to cast aspersions against Israelis as a whole the primary issue faced by both sides is the insane religious radicalisation.
The Rabbinic right are engaged in an insane form of Zionism that sees all of the land from the Nile to the Euphrates as theirs, and wants to conform with biblical prophecy. Fortunately these are powerful but still minority elements within Israel, particularly held in Ultra-Orthodox circles. However this minority has still had a pernicious impact on Israel's overall response to the Gazan situation and the situation of Palestine, showing little to no care for the Gazans and Palestinians, in the pursuit of a no-tolerance policy of terrorism.
The other side is equally wrong, though pushed into that situation through what they see as necessity as no other alternative has worked. The Palestinians elected Hamas after a brutal period of infighting (and yes Hamas was created by the Israelis to fight Fatah and stop stable government competing with Israel) and a brutal series of attacks from Israel. Hamas' charter does not recognise the state of Israel and thus peace talks have broken down on both sides. The peace that may have been achieved in the late nineties is now a fairy tale because of the state of both parties.
Israel has been given carte blanche to do basically whatever they want through the whims of the American religious right and the American neocons. There is also a degree of western sympathy for the Israelis, they have every justification to have a fortress mentality due to being constantly under attack, but that mentality has turned into a severe malignancy infecting their overall policies and has lead to them performing acts that no society which dared to call itself a 'western democracy' would consider acceptable.
The two parties in this debate are fairly straightfoward, you have the insane ultra-zionists to whom Israel can do no wrong, and the somewhat crazed conspiracy theorists or supremely pro-palestinian individuals who think that Israel has no right to exist and there is somewhat of a global control on how people see Israel. Sure Israel does engage in counter-intelligence operations and attempts to spin what is going on continuously, but the same can be said for the Palestinians. This was a PR stunt by Hamas and they would almost certainly be delighted that it was attacked by Israel because it allows them to push forward their point that Israel is acting as a rogue nation outside of the limitations of International Law.
The final point is that International Law is completely fucking arbitrary and really doesn't come into this. Countries are impossible to bind to international law, particularly countries such as the US and Israel, and we should not recognise any form of international court because it would be highly affected by political posturing and movement by the big UN Security Council powers. The most effective way to peace in the region is a minimisation of the radical sentiment, put forward by the youth on both sides. Now this is particularly difficult in the case of young individuals who are pro Palestinian because they are absolutely horrified at what Israel is doing to Gaza and the West Bank every single day.
It is incredibly difficult to separate yourself from the chaos emotionally and start making moderate points. If your family or people you know or even people you identify with are attacked indiscriminately because of where they choose to live, it makes sense to want revenge and to fight back, but it's obvious that the fight is one sided, if you attack Israel with force they are going to destroy you with superior weapons and technology. It's just how this works, they have the funding and backing of the world's biggest superpowers, and even though Hamas is working with Hezbollah and the Iranians, they will not be able to compete in any way through force be it using different tactics or weapons. Their only real chance of landing any damage on Israel is through a nuclear arsenal, and if their chosen destination is martyrdom, well they'll certainly get it in response to a nuclear attack on Israeli soil. Israel's nuclear arsenal is the world's worst kept secret, and they certainly will not hesitate to use it to destroy most of the middle east in retaliation to an attack on their soil, fuck the consequences. If they're acting this insane in response to a few rockets (albeit ones aimed at civilians), their response to a nuclear assault will be so utterly unimaginable it is something neither side should ponder for too long.
Though it is obvious that the growing PR campaign against Israeli aggression is starting to take hold, even nations such as Australia that would have been 'waiting for the facts' under a Howard government have taken action to expel diplomats because of the passport scandal and now the attacks on the flotilla. Western Nations are starting to stand up against Israel's continued attacks against civilians and are starting to want answers.
Now there are two ways that this can go, the first is towards a peace process, to those who are anti Israel, get the idea of the state of Israel being dissolved out of your mind, there is no power on this earth that can make this happen, and Israel is too integrated with Western Powers to have this ever be a possibility regardless of the armaments or power of Middle-Eastern states. The West is decades ahead of you in weapons and technology, and whilst you may technically have more manpower, that's just grist for the grinder. The most likely outcome is potentially a land resettlement deal with reparations paid to Israelis to sell their land to Palestinians through a third party funding source. The only people who could possibly oppose this would be insanely zionist jews, so again, given the current makeup of the knesset, this is still a long way off.
But for those spouting rhetoric of a dissolved israel and a fully free Palestine, again, the path that this can take is an all out war between Egypt, Israel, Syria, Lebanon and potentially Iran and even Afghani soldiers. (Potentially even Iraqis though, I honestly doubt it after the American occupation). The UK, Australia, France, Germany and all of NATO with the exception of the US will choose to not intervene. The US will support the Israelis with weapons and manpower if it turns into an all out war, and the possibility of a nuclear strike is quite substantial. The US wants to guard their 'example democracy' in the middle east, and would be almost certain to cut ties with nations without supplies of oil if they can negotiate deals with Russia to allow for an attack on these middle-eastern states.
Again were we to factor energy independence into the equation for the US (Which is unlikely given the power of oil cartels), the odds are even higher, meaning the US will back Israel unconditionally regardless of how the Russians and the Saudis react.
TL;DR - Israel is acting like a complete fuckwit because they've gone mental under the fortress mentality, so have the palestinians. Both have started electing crazy religious fundamentalists. Both sides are fucked. Only young kids who are moderate on both sides can stop the slide. Put ideas of Israel 'going away' out of your head, the west and Israel have superior weapons, firepower and tactics. Any nuclear attack on Israel will almost certainly end with a nuclear retaliation all throughout the middle east. if there is all out war the US will support Israel wholeheartedly and the US/Israeli coalition will win.
Any questions?
