• Congratulations to the Class of 2024 on your results!
    Let us know how you went here
    Got a question about your uni preferences? Ask us here

Why so few anarchists? (2 Viewers)

TacoTerrorist

Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
692
Location
Melbourne
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
scuba_steve2121 said:
lol they would probs start there own little capitalist state.
Wait so after the overthrow of a repressive economic system some people are going to just decide to band together and make their own little capitalist state? Who is going to voluntarily work for somebody else, under their authority? How would said employer get capital, which no longer exists, to build his business?

scuba_steve2121 said:
no it isn't once you makes decisions for people regardless if a group of people want to adhere to it or not. you are oppressing there wishes not to. also violent revolution? fuck that's a little extreme
This is hypocrisy. The decisions aren't being made for people, they're being made by people who live according to those small workplace related decisions. On the unlikely chance those people disagree on those decisions, they are free to join another syndicate. Violent revolution is the only way to eliminate the state. It isn't just going to hand over its power. It has to be killed, like a tumour.

scuba_steve2121 said:
you have created a system of oppression just like a state. democracy on every level is flawed
Then how are decisions made in 'Anarcho'-Capitalism? By a CEO who then enforces those decisions (most likely against the interests of the workers, as the interests of the ownership class and the workers directly oppose each other) to his underlings? Is that not tyranny?

scuba_steve2121 said:
thus your system is no a true a system of anarchy and inherently infringes of personal liberties of others.
Not at all.

scuba_steve2121 said:
also collectivism doesn't work. Human nature prevents it from working efficiently. in your system people would starve very quickly. also another thing what if one syndicalist wanted to take over and enforce their rules over another one. it would lead to war and further operssion as they might belive there syndaclist is better for the people in the other one.
This is a common argument. Your basic assertion is that people are inherently greedy and will only ever do something for their own benefit - which is complete bullshit; a lie propagated by defenders of the profit motive. Hell, even if it were true, personal interest and the interest of one's community do not necessarily have to oppose one another.

In response to your second proposal, that some syndicate would somehow desire to enforce their, what? inter-workplace agreements on some other syndicate is ludicrous. A syndicate is nothing more than a workplace of some kind, like a factory, a school or the like. They work together to provide goods necessary for the development of humanity.

Collectivism works. It had to work for society to get where it is today. Capitalism has been around for what? 250 years? The Spanish Anarchists in the Spanish Civil War of 1936 are a prime example of syndicalism in action.

scuba_steve2121 said:
and again what if one syndalicst doesn't have th enecessary land to make a living for its population
Yeah so there was a miscommunication between us. A syndicate is just a workplace which is controlled, owned and operated by its workers.

scuba_steve2121 said:
also who (if this revolution happens) decides how land is distrubuted?

it would lead to another state
A revolution is a process, not an event. Land will be taken by anyone who can put it to good use.

scuba_steve2121 said:
your system is flawed on so many levels
You want to talk about the system you advocate then? Capitalism without the state to protect it would fall instantaneously. People don't like or want to work long hours for a master to produce goods they don't own or have a say about.
 

SylviaB

Just Bee Yourself 🐝
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
6,911
Location
Lidcombe
Gender
Female
HSC
2021
So, the state coercively appropriating tax revenue is not immoral?
Its not immoral in the sense that (deontological) morality doesn't exist.

But there are obviously reasons to be against coercion other than for moral reasons.

Are you only opposed to murder because you think it is immoral?
 

Ziva

Banned
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
130
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
nup anarcho capitalism is a joke i would know ok IIMM AN ECONOMIST
 

Ziva

Banned
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
130
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
i dont want to pay a toll to get onto my street i would rather get taxed like 5% of my income and have some army and some roads built ye
 

Ziva

Banned
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
130
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
out of curiosity have you read much in the way of Austrian economics
m8 im about to HD/D econ356 - history of economic thought

which they advised me to do

because i am the best economics student and i have shown an interest in honours!!!
 

SylviaB

Just Bee Yourself 🐝
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
6,911
Location
Lidcombe
Gender
Female
HSC
2021
sounds awesome

but I don't get how this will all help with mc
 

Ziva

Banned
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
130
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
i got invited to 2nd round IB interview lol with JP morgan chase but i declined coz im going overseas

plus i econ hons are like jesus for any corporate job search
 
Joined
Dec 12, 2003
Messages
3,492
Location
Sydney
Gender
Male
HSC
2005
Its not immoral in the sense that (deontological) morality doesn't exist.

But there are obviously reasons to be against coercion other than for moral reasons.

Are you only opposed to murder because you think it is immoral?
Um. I think it is immoral to hurt others, yes. But deontological morality is not the only kind of morality - unless you are making some distinction between morality and ethics that I am unaware of.

Consequentialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

peikoff

Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
43
Gender
Undisclosed
HSC
N/A
ugh you don't believe in morality do you
Are you telling me you have no morality?

That would be interesting seeing as you advocate a political philosophy and yet deny morality. It seems you leave out a necessary stage in the philosophical hierarchy Metaphysics > Epistemology > Ethics > Politics

However, I do agree with you that there is no deontological ethics in the sense that any action is intrinsically, in and of itself right or wrong, system of morality.

And seeing as morality and ethics has been corrupted by so many 'intellectuals' (using the term loosely), I guess it is understandable you belive that you have no morality, I believe you do, but that you don't have the type of morality the majority of people espouse and prescribe

Ethics deals with what should be done, in that sense it is aguide for how man should live, actions are good or bad only in the sense that they aid and advance mans life, with politics then being the next logical sequence in the hierarchy as it states how man should lve in society, considering that he is by nature a social creature.
 

SylviaB

Just Bee Yourself 🐝
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
6,911
Location
Lidcombe
Gender
Female
HSC
2021
That would be interesting seeing as you advocate a political philosophy and yet deny morality. It seems you leave out a necessary stage in the philosophical hierarchy Metaphysics > Epistemology > Ethics > Politics
Except I think the ethics part is a load of crap

Ethics deals with what should be done, in that sense it is aguide for how man should live, actions are good or bad only in the sense that they aid and advance mans life, with politics then being the next logical sequence in the hierarchy as it states how man should lve in society, considering that he is by nature a social creature.
yeah yeah I used to be an objectivist okay

basically morality is the way one ought to act

and as far as I am concerned it isn't possible to determine the way one ought to act, without presupposing anything else

e.g. You oughn't kill people. it is immoral

why

because it it harmful to collective utility [has already appealed to consequences; is presupposing that one ought to act in favour of collective utility]

why ought I be concerned about collective utility?

...



etc


mind you I think objectivists do a better job at ethics than most everyone else, though they still rely on presuppositions

Um. I think it is immoral to hurt others, yes.
That wasn't my question.

I'm asking if the only reason you are against murder is because you consider it immoral.

Consequentialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
consequentialist ethics are stupid.

It's applying 'morality' to something that isn't morality.

yeah, killing people leads to bad consequences. We can leave it there.

Morality without an 'ought' is just pointless.
 
Last edited:

cp3

New Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
17
Gender
Male
HSC
2009
I think it is quite ignorant to mischaracterise consequentialism like that. Though maybe it’s due to my lack of understanding on what you mean when you say consequentialism applies morality to something that isn't morality. From what I can gather I suppose you're saying that without the 'ought' to, it is no longer morality, but consequentialism does give reasons as why you 'ought' to more so than deontology.

Firstly, you seem to have been mistaken with what consequentialism is, consequentialism is more concerned with the outcome of an event and what is considered a 'good' or a just outcome. Your example of collective utility is yes a form of consequentialism but it is utilitarian so you have already the assumption that we should believe utility is the most important factor in the end outcome of an event. Why 'ought' we believe that the utilitarian view of morality is superior? I certainly myself believe that it is somewhat flawed and I cannot justify that particular view but it stands to reason that there is still a logical (or pseudo logical reasoning) that justifies the utilitarian stance on morality since consequentialism does not have to lead to utilitarianism.

Consequentialism is about ends, not the means. Even objectivism which stresses the importance of the individiual over the collective whole is consequentialist. It believes that you must do what you believe is best for yourself regardless of its consequences on others. It sees the individual of prime importance so whatever can allow your desires to be fufilled must be adhered to. And to ayn rand selfish egoism is what will lead to a person reaching their fullest potential. So she in herself is looking at the ends and believes that sort of morality will lead to the best outcome for herself. (Though it’s hard for her to justify her own importance over others it’s merely taken as a given, but like everything it starts from self evident proofs).

Now deontology on the other hand, which you seem to be advocating, has no real 'ought' at all. Kants beliefs for the wrongness of an action was due to its intrinsically bad nature irrespective of its consequences. (Yes he did have a justification why we 'ought' to be deontologists but his proof is ill considered since it still has a hint of consequentialism in it I will expand further if you want but I’ll suspend that for the moment). Taken to the logical extreme which Kant explicitly advocated, makes it very stupid. For example, it would mean that if somebody came to your house and asked you where your mum is because he was going to kill her, you would be obliged to tell the truth thus leading to her death. (Yes you can also ring the police and not answer him, but it maybe too late).

Now, this does not in any way justify any sort of meta-ethical belief in morality. I'm not saying morality exists but rather morality is a practical effort constructed by human beings to make a more cohesive and better society. Now the question may arise, why should an individual care for another person at all if it is not in his/her interests? Well for one, the only reason you would not help a young kid say getting bashed on the streets and you had the ability to help him in which would not harm yourself, would be because you have a logical justification for your ideas i.e. "objectivism". In the same way you may say it seems stupid that somebody for example would be stupid to increase the collective utility of society (one justification would be because it is mathematically logical since a greater quantity of benefit is better than smaller through the hedonistic calculus) and you would say this does not benefit me, so why would I do it? It would be moral cannibalism for me to do something to help others. But for all the objectivists talk about human nature being intrinsically selfish, there is also the fact that emotionally you may feel distraught that you did not help that young boy, and thus to fufill even your own emotional needs it would be better to help that boy (Ayn Rand does give an example something like this regarding the gift of the bracelet in her novel). So possibly that because the collective utility would make the person who sacrificed himself happier is a reason to do it.

Lastly to claim the individual is the only unit that is important and that others are irrelevant, the very fact that everyone is dependent on society makes that statement fallacious. Thatchers statement "there is no society, there are people and families, but not society" Is I believe logically unjustified while Einstein on the other hand makes a more logical case for societies existence.

"The abstract concept "society" means to the individual human being the sum total of his direct and indirect relations to his contemporaries and to all the people of earlier generations. The individual is able to think, feel, strive, and work by himself; but he depends so much upon society—in his physical, intellectual, and emotional existence—that it is impossible to think of him, or to understand him, outside the framework of society. It is "society" which provides man with food, clothing, a home, the tools of work, language, the forms of thought, and most of the content of thought; his life is made possible through the labor and the accomplishments of the many millions past and present who are all hidden behind the small word “society.”

And this is why; we 'ought' to be concerned collective values.
 
Last edited:

moll.

Learn to science.
Joined
Aug 19, 2008
Messages
3,545
Gender
Male
HSC
2008
Because anarchism was discredited in the Middle Ages, much as socialism/communism was discredited in the twentieth century, despite the obvious and much-heard argument that the application for both was wrong.
 

Ziva

Banned
Joined
Jan 29, 2010
Messages
130
Gender
Male
HSC
2007
There doesn't need to be an intellectual answer to why murder is wrong.

You are taking someone's life away from them.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 2)

Top