Best university for politics/law (2 Viewers)

[Existential]

How about you don't talk about things you don't know about?

Your thoughts on what mark H said?

 

[Aerath]

In Arts, I think Sydney outranks most other universities in NSW (except ANU, if you classify that as 'NSW').

Let's face it - it's an Arts degree. Practicality varies from person to person, and from discipline to discipline. It's not as if we're talking about law, or media/journalism here, where practicality is an integral issue. My belief regarding Arts is that your degree is as practical as you make it. If you want a bludgy time, choose Ancient Sanskrit or something - you'll get through university easily, however, it's not going to be practical. If you want to study politics/political economy/sociology/economics whatever - it will benefit you.

A lot of Sydney's advantage is out of the classroom as well - involvement in societies, and the opportunities to get involved in internships. That's not to say that other universities don't have such programs. But, to say that UNSW/USyd's programs are impractical is a load of bullshit, coming from someone who clearly does not know what he is saying.

 

[Existential]

Been to MAQ Open Day and am satisfied with Arts/Law there.

 

[Chemical Ali]

In Arts, I think Sydney outranks most other universities in NSW (except ANU, if you classify that as 'NSW').

Let's face it - it's an Arts degree. Practicality varies from person to person, and from discipline to discipline. It's not as if we're talking about law, or media/journalism here, where practicality is an integral issue. My belief regarding Arts is that your degree is as practical as you make it. If you want a bludgy time, choose Ancient Sanskrit or something - you'll get through university easily, however, it's not going to be practical. If you want to study politics/political economy/sociology/economics whatever - it will benefit you.

A lot of Sydney's advantage is out of the classroom as well - involvement in societies, and the opportunities to get involved in internships. That's not to say that other universities don't have such programs. But, to say that UNSW/USyd's programs are impractical is a load of bullshit, coming from someone who clearly does not know what he is saying.

languages are scarcely bludgey compared to international feminist studies or w/e

plus a decent effort in something like that could see you become an archaeologist, not something to sniff at

if you want to study economics do B Comm not BA

 

[Existential]

Keep discussion on politics/law please. Not economics unless you make it relevent to arts(politics)/law.

 

[Existential]

if u can get the marks for arts/law at sydney even if travel is a hassle i dont know why you wouldnt take that up :3

depends, things arent always black and white

 

[izzy88]

if u can get the marks for arts/law at sydney even if travel is a hassle i dont know why you wouldnt take that up :3 anywho macq isnt too bad, law is shifty sometimes in regards to the structure of some units other than that its not too bad

to be honest, usyd law has been relying on its prestige and history for while now and not actually delivering anything new. The faculty has been cutting costs, increasing class sizes and the restructure of the law subjects from 8 credit points to 6 credit points (in line with usyd policy a couple of years ago), has created some odd combinations of subjects and structure (eg. a torts course, a contracts course, and then a 'torts and contracts II' course that has the ends of both courses). Some subjects were also not really cut down, and as a result of that (and the competitive nature of law students), many students in 4th year law only do three subjects a semester (like when it was 8 credit points) rather than 4 - basically because the work load is seen to be too much (of course, there is also the added addition that many students start working a couple of days a week in law firms etc and that also impacts).

The introduction of the JD has also caused some disparity, with JD students getting smaller class sizes (in contrast to LLB combined students), as well as electives which used to be available to LLB students in 5th year now only being offered to JD students (basically so USYD can market their JD course better).

As Existential said, its not all black and white. One thing that I would say though, is that USYD law does have a very good social scene, with lots of parties, competitions, mooting, just general social activities etc. The cohort really bonds together quite well (whilst still maintaining that stressful, competitive nature though...). That's just my opinion. Saying that, if I had to make the choice again, I would still go sydney - but my main reasons for going to usyd in the first place was a) I wanted to do ancient history and b) usyd was my closest university to home. My other main choice for uni was for MQ, but in the end I decided it was too far too travel.

 

[ajdlinux]

Short of going to Canberra

There's your problem

As far as Sydney unis go, I'd say USyd for anything Arts/Law, definitely.

 

[Existential]

There's your problem

As far as Sydney unis go, I'd say USyd for anything Arts/Law, definitely.

I appreciate your position however my choice will depend. I may go to MAQ. And also who knows I may do something post-grad at Canberra. I really dunno. But MAQ politics looks awesome. Even if I dont get the ATAR for arts/law at MAQ I'm now tempted to go there for their arts degree. I will note however that MAQ has postgrad politics and I'm yet to see a uni that has the same.

 

[Existential]

but my main reasons for going to usyd in the first place was a) I wanted to do ancient history and b) usyd was my closest university to home. My other main choice for uni was for MQ, but in the end I decided it was too far too travel.

the converse is true for me. MAQ is closer than USYD, and I like the look of arts at MAQ better than USYD. Law (apart from USYD having more modern facilities) seems about the same. So at the moment I'm leaning towards MAQ.

 

[ajdlinux]

I appreciate your position however my choice will depend.

Just being facetious

I will note however that MAQ has postgrad politics and I'm yet to see a uni that has the same.

Hmm? Pretty sure every major uni has postgrad politics...

 

[kaz1]

the converse is true for me. MAQ is closer than USYD, and I like the look of arts at MAQ better than USYD. Law (apart from USYD having more modern facilities) seems about the same. So at the moment I'm leaning towards MAQ.

If you got the 99.something required for USYD you would still choose MAQ then?

 

[andyfg88]

Hi Existential,

I do Arts/Law at Macq.

I'm doing a major in sociology and I'm a third year student - I finish Arts this semester. I transferred into the combined law program from interstate. I was doing just a BA prior.

Anyway, from what I've heard/read/been told. The Macquarie law faculty has indeed had some issues in recent years. A majority of this is attributed to a single factor which affected the university as a whole from last year. Basically what they did was reduce the number of credit points per subject from 4 to 3, the result of which was reduced contact time (so tutorials are now 1 hour instead of 2).

But they also maintained the amount of credit points required for the degree, so this meant that you needed to do more units in order to satisfy the same degree requirements. As far as I know, the entire university (all faculties) went through this same change.

Unfortunately, I only joined the university this year so I can't comment on how it was before. But I have heard that a lot of people are disappointed. But in my honest opinion, now that I think about it, I think it might just be a teething issue. The quality of the degree hasn't changed, I mean we're still learning the same content etc... And the workload is still very much the same (from what I can see), it's just that the face-to-face time has been reduced substantially, namely in tutorials. Lectures are still the standard 2 hours.

To counter this issue, they've introduced PAL (Peer-assisted-learning) which is actually a phenomenal program whereby previous year students "mentor" current students. It works exceptionally well and from what I know most people who attend receive marks within the vicinity of Distinctions and HDs. It is a more "intimate" style of learning and you learn off each other which is fantastic because its a collaborative environment.

Aside from this, the Law Society (MULS) is unbelievably good. They are super active, they constantly have events running, law balls, inter-varsity social events, sporting events the works. And if you want to be a little bit more challenged and want to advance your skills a bit there is always mooting and advocacy competitions you can sign up for.

So overall, compared to other universities yes, the Macquarie School of Law is probably super underfunded (so much so that it is not a subsidiary of the Faculty of Arts). The Faculty building is a joke, there's no dedicated law library and it all looks kind of George Orwell 1984-ish. BUT it is what you make of it.

As for Arts, my original university - La Trobe, was far better in this regard (even though the recent university rankings don't reflect this). I can't say I'm impressed at all with the level of teaching for sociology anyway. But then again I'm pretty biased, I did more than half of my Arts degree at another university.

Having said that, If I could get into USYD or UNSW I would do it in a heart beat... ahaha

Hope this helps... let me know if you have any questions regarding MQ...

 

[Aerath]

All universities have Politics PostGrad. If you think Macquarie is the only one - I fear for your research skills....

 

[Existential]

Unfortunately, I only joined the university this year so I can't comment on how it was before. But I have heard that a lot of people are disappointed. But in my honest opinion, now that I think about it, I think it might just be a teething issue. The quality of the degree hasn't changed, I mean we're still learning the same content etc... And the workload is still very much the same (from what I can see), it's just that the face-to-face time has been reduced substantially, namely in tutorials. Lectures are still the standard 2 hours.

So you get 1 hour tutorials for law? What about for arts? Do you think this is enough?

To counter this issue, they've introduced PAL (Peer-assisted-learning) which is actually a phenomenal program whereby previous year students "mentor" current students. It works exceptionally well and from what I know most people who attend receive marks within the vicinity of Distinctions and HDs. It is a more "intimate" style of learning and you learn off each other which is fantastic because its a collaborative environment.

Nice. Are the mentor students paid?

Aside from this, the Law Society (MULS) is unbelievably good. They are super active, they constantly have events running, law balls, inter-varsity social events, sporting events the works. And if you want to be a little bit more challenged and want to advance your skills a bit there is always mooting and advocacy competitions you can sign up for.

Mooting ftw.

So overall, compared to other universities yes, the Macquarie School of Law is probably super underfunded (so much so that it is not a subsidiary of the Faculty of Arts). The Faculty building is a joke, there's no dedicated law library and it all looks kind of George Orwell 1984-ish. BUT it is what you make of it.

I've seen it and it looked pretty ordinary. Is the quality of law at MAQ something that irritates you or is it good enough for you not to go into picky details apart from on sites like this?

 

[izzy88]

Anyway, from what I've heard/read/been told. The Macquarie law faculty has indeed had some issues in recent years. A majority of this is attributed to a single factor which affected the university as a whole from last year. Basically what they did was reduce the number of credit points per subject from 4 to 3, the result of which was reduced contact time (so tutorials are now 1 hour instead of 2).

just for interest sake to compare at usyd, contact hours are four hours per week per subject, for 10 weeks (so 40 hours per law subject per semester). What those hours include depends on the subject.

Some are a two hour lecture and a two hour tutorial, but most are two, two hour seminars (50-70 people in a seminar) - these seminars can have some class interaction, but depending on the lecturer and the course material, it can generally just be the same as if you were in a lecture theatre with 250 people.

 

[Existential]

just for interest sake to compare at usyd, contact hours are four hours per week per subject, for 10 weeks (so 40 hours per law subject per semester). What those hours include depends on the subject.

Some are a two hour lecture and a two hour tutorial, but most are two, two hour seminars (50-70 people in a seminar) - these seminars can have some class interaction, but depending on the lecturer and the course material, it can generally just be the same as if you were in a lecture theatre with 250 people.

So what's the difference in contact hours between MAQ and SYD per law subject?

 

[andyfg88]

So you get 1 hour tutorials for law? What about for arts? Do you think this is enough?

Arts is pretty much the same, I haven't sat a tutorial at Macquarie university in any of my class (arts/law) that is more than one hour.

To be honest, I don't think for Arts it matters so much. When I was at my old uni, we had 3 hour lectures and 2 hour tutorials and I used to hate my life, especially since they seemed like such a waste.

Having said that.... for Law I think the extra hour in the tutorials would certainly benefit students a hell of a lot, especially since lecturers are so pressed for time during lectures to deliver all the relevant information. The tutorials are really what you rely on to ask those significant questions and to have those super-significant topics addressed.

So yes, I think it would certainly help to have that extra hour in tutorials for law. I've heard 2 Law tutors mention already that they think it is a shame that the university has cut that back.

Nice. Are the mentor students paid?

No they're not paid, but it looks incredible on their CVs and also I believe you need to have done quite well in order to be a mentor for a particular subject. It also helps them rehash what they've learnt so they don't forget/become slack.

Mooting ftw.

Yeah we're pretty active in that regard, lots and lots of mooting we're also participants of the international jessup (look it up).

I've seen it and it looked pretty ordinary. Is the quality of law at MAQ something that irritates you or is it good enough for you not to go into picky details apart from on sites like this?

To be honest, I don't have anything tangible to compare it to. I haven't studied law at any of the other universities, I know people who study law at UWS and at UTS and I also know someone who studies at UNSW.

UWS and UTS don't have the reputation in the industry that Macquarie does (as far as I know), which goes right back to the whole prestige thing. Because Macquarie is the third law school in NSW.

From what I know those two universities adopt a very pragmatic and practical approach, they really just teach you the bare essentials of what you need to know. Again I don't know this as a matter of fact, but from what I've heard. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but I guess it doesn't really help in the way of wanting a more wholesome experience.

Macquarie on the other hand I feel probably tries to imitate UNSW and USYD a lot more in their black letter approach. Sure they promote that they adopt an "alternative" approach to teaching law, and to some extent this is quite true. But they still are quite black letter especially in the subjects that require that, for example torts and contracts.

Does the quality of teaching bother me? Sometimes. For example when I'm sitting an interview and I know that there are others in the room from USYD or UNSW that can be quite intimidating, that doesn't mean that they're smarter or better than me. At the end of the day we're all really learning the same law from virtually the same cases and the same bits of legislation.

But the fact that they have a 200 year old institution backing them with its reputation and all that it carries is for some reason super appealing to employers. Having said that, I'm sure that if you excel and do really well at any law school that won't hinder you as much but it just means that you don't have that initial advantage of being from a Go8 university. Aside from that, the other thing that probably frustrates me a lot is what I mentioned earlier about the tutorials.... Like right now I have a massive torts assignment and I have a whole bunch of questions I'd love to have answered, I know I won't be able to have them answered in a tutorial because there's not enough time.

But all that does is encourage me to work more independently, I've got the resources, I've got the whole bloody internet if I really want... So I guess it just means you gotta do a little bit more work and you become more reliant on yourself as opposed to being spoon fed. That of course has its pros and cons.

So what's the difference in contact hours between MAQ and SYD per law subject?

For every 3 Credit Point subject you have a 1 hour lecture and 2 hour tutorial or vice versa. Usually its an hour tutorial and 2 hour lecture. Some classes have introduced a new type of seminar system in conjunction with tutorials and lectures. You can decide which you want to attend.

Also some lectures are given twice a week.

Aside from this, the general university rule is you take the credit points and multiply them by 3 hours and that gives you how much work (in terms of hours) you should be doing per subject. Since each class is 3 credit points:

3 x 3 = 9 hours per week, per class.

So if you're doing 4 subjects a semester (which you probably will be) that's 36 hours a week of individual study time and 3 hours per week, per subject of contact time.

Also, ALL lectures are recorded and are available within the hour. We usually have like 200-300 people in lecture theatres.. with about 600 students enrolled in the LLB at any one time (a combination of graduate/undergraduate and distance).

 

[Existential]

One of the problems I have with USYD is the travel fatigue I get when getting there and back. With Macquarie I can tell the difference (travel to MAQ can be about half an hour faster than USYD).

Imo MAQ has better scholarships for accommodation then USYD so if that happens then its obvious what I'll do. However its really competitive and what frustrates me is a lot of the really good scholarships are being turned into 'indigenous-only' scholarships. I really find that dispicable but anyway.... Assuming I'm where I am next near MAQ is the better option transport-wise which does make a difference.

 

[andyfg88]

One of the problems I have with USYD is the travel fatigue I get when getting there and back. With Macquarie I can tell the difference (travel to MAQ can be about half an hour faster than USYD).

Imo MAQ has better scholarships for accommodation then USYD so if that happens then its obvious what I'll do. However its really competitive and what frustrates me is a lot of the really good scholarships are being turned into 'indigenous-only' scholarships. I really find that dispicable but anyway.... Assuming I'm where I am next near MAQ is the better option transport-wise which does make a difference.

To be honest, I would try pretty hard to not let the transport thing get in the way. I realise it can be very frustrating and annoying to have to trek it out all the way to the City every other day. But the way I see it is short-term loss, long term gain.

By the way Macquarie is doing a lot of things to better the quality of their degrees, did you attend the information night? They're introducing a new core unit for 4/5th year students where they help you secure an internship. And you get it credited towards your degree... I don't think any other university in Australia has that yet.

At the end of the day they're both good options, there are pros and cons for both. Just because you go to Macq it doesn't mean you'll never land a good job. And just cos you go to USYD doesn't mean you're guaranteed a good job either. All that really depends on you. The universities are just institutions, they're just a means to an end.. They are what you make of it, and you're only really limited by yourself and how far you want to go. You can be a HD student at macq and you can be a HD student at USYD or you can be a pass/fail student at either...

The ball is very much in your court.