French/Greek elections (3 Viewers)

[funkshen]

dunno how you can say with a straight face that the west isn't criminally liable for the wretched state of the middle east

also dunno how you can say with a straight face that arabic muslim immigration and demographic change isn't a concern, considering the social foundations of middle eastern society are equivalent to 14th century italy

 

[qawe]

Why would they leave their home countries then?

There are several reasons:
1) Better quality of life (medicare, social security, etc)
2) Part of hidden concerted campaign to take over the Western world - whenever you see a Salafist walking in the street (someone with a beard and no moustache, I've seen many in Sydney), this is someone who believes in reverting to the state of Arabia at the time of Islam's beginnings. So what you would otherwise term ludicrous now seems rather plausible.

 

[soloooooo]

Muslims in particular by themselves are not a big problem. It is all of the traditionally non (or less) Australian ways of life that threaten this nation (as well as France) in some shape or form.

 

[mirakon]

and still, muslims who move to non-muslim countries don't magically become progressive and western all of a sudden

It usually only takes 1 or 2 generations tbh

 

[soloooooo]

It usually only takes 1 or 2 generations tbh

Assimilated immigrants (2nd/3rd generation etc) are good and I don't think many people would have issues with them at all. It is some of (not all of) the first generation immigrants that remain a problem though.

 

[Bored_of_HSC]

Assimilated immigrants (2nd/3rd generation etc) are good and I don't think many people would have issues with them at all. It is some of (not all of) the first generation immigrants that remain a problem though.

lol m8. I wonder how 1st gen immigrants become 2nd and 3rd hmmmmm...

 

[Lolsmith]

There are several reasons:
1) Better quality of life (medicare, social security, etc)
2) Part of hidden concerted campaign to take over the Western world - whenever you see a Salafist walking in the street (someone with a beard and no moustache, I've seen many in Sydney), this is someone who believes in reverting to the state of Arabia at the time of Islam's beginnings. So what you would otherwise term ludicrous now seems rather plausible.

fuck

Salafists have a uniform now

fuck me

 

[qawe]

Muslims in particular by themselves are not a big problem. It is all of the traditionally non (or less) Australian ways of life that threaten this nation (as well as France) in some shape or form.

Actually that depends on the attitude of the immigrants. The Australian way of life won't magically change *that much* by their mere presence; it is only if they agitate to do so.
In the case of Muslims, here is what the Quran says about "the sword" http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/arlandson/sword/05.html
Regardless of what the Koran says, the reality on the ground is that many countries with a Muslim majority are moving to Sharia law funded by Saudi Arabia and Iran. These include Algeria, Egypt, and it is quite likely Syria if Assaad falls.

Assimilated immigrants (2nd/3rd generation etc) are good and I don't think many people would have issues with them at all. It is some of (not all of) the first generation immigrants that remain a problem though.

that is a blanket statement. there may be exceptions. there are ways to keep oneself from following societal norms. In the past, generations of groups have remained separate from their society. It is not a hard and fast rule. There are no guarantees that protect Australia

It usually only takes 1 or 2 generations tbh

maybe they're only the ones that appear on TV. it's not too hard for a group to present a skewed view of itself.

You realize Sydney is already more multicultural than Paris? The rhetoric you hear about Europe being over run with muslims and migrants is just plain wrong. If you dislike multiculture, Sydney is the fucking coalface with the arguable exception of Israel.

Sydney is not 45% Muslim. Paris is.

 

[SylviaB]

Obviously I think they are repsonsible for tremendously retarding progress in the region, but there's more to it than simply that. And like I said, it doesn't change the impact of muslim immigration.

Why would they leave their home countries then?

hahah, so you think muslims move to france because they love the french people/culture?

I think it's absolutely hilarious how you think christians in australia are actively stopping societal progress (as if the church has any meaningful impact on political discourse and the average aussie christian is staunchly socially conservative), and yet you think muslims, for whom actual devotion to their religion is not at all uncommon, will have no significant cultural impacts on western nations.

Progressive is a pretty relative term and compared to the "westerners" around my grand parents house in Penrith, or around my sisters place in Rockhampton, they seem pretty bloody progressive.

Arabian muslims are not more progressive than bogans you fucking lunatic.

 

[qawe]

Progressive is a pretty relative term and compared to the "westerners" around my grand parents house in Penrith, or around my sisters place in Rockhampton, they seem pretty bloody progressive.

Keyword *seem*. It's pretty obvious why they wouldn't support the Liberal Party.
If you don't get it http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/socie...stians-search-for-support-20110123-1a16t.html

 

[Lentern]

Sydney is not 45% Muslim. Paris is.

Pigs arse it is.

 

[Lentern]

Keyword *seem*. It's pretty obvious why they wouldn't support the Liberal Party.
If you don't get it http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/socie...stians-search-for-support-20110123-1a16t.html

My anecdotal experience, living in a suburb with one of the highest Muslim populations in the nation(and an almost entirely arabic Muslim one at that) is that having grown in a diverse multicultural society they have adopted an infinitely more progressive and tolerant outlook in life then the good folk of Rockhampton or Penrith. As for Sheehan's article I find it strange frankly. Anyone who claims to follow even a modicum of Christ's message would be contently aligned with the compassionate tolerance of left of centre Australian political parties.

 

[SylviaB]

you really need to stop trying to rationalise christianity as being complementary to your political views

 

[SylviaB]

tolerant as you think they are

they almost certainly still hate blacks

 

[Lentern]

you really need to stop trying to rationalise christianity as being complementary to your political views

I think if you have a look at the beatitudes, you cannot contend that they are a cogent endorsement of the ideas of compassion, peace, selflessness which forms the bedrock of modern left of centre politics.

 

[Annihilist]

dunno how you can say with a straight face that the west isn't criminally liable for the wretched state of the middle east

also dunno how you can say with a straight face that arabic muslim immigration and demographic change isn't a concern, considering the social foundations of middle eastern society are equivalent to 14th century italy

Well they can't come in here and take over the culture, unless we elect them as political leaders on those policies. There is an element of conformity required to migrate to a new country, but they still should be allowed to practice their own culture where it doesn't affect others.

 

[Lentern]

Well they can't come in here and take over the culture, unless we elect them as political leaders on those policies. There is an element of conformity required to migrate to a new country, but they still should be allowed to practice their own culture where it doesn't affect others.

The Stuart-Mill Harm principle is I think what you're getting that there and yes that should provide the governing basis for our immigration law.

 

[Annihilist]

I think it's absolutely hilarious how you think christians in australia are actively stopping societal progress (as if the church has any meaningful impact on political discourse and the average aussie christian is staunchly socially conservative), and yet you think muslims, for whom actual devotion to their religion is not at all uncommon, will have no significant cultural impacts on western nations.

Any religion which has power in our political system has meaningful impact on our political discourse. Although we are not a "christian" nation to anywhere near the extent of, say, the US, around 60% of people in Australia identify as Christian (Census circa ~2009 if I recall), and most of our morals and laws are based of Christian values. Furthermore, we have this oversensitivity to religion where we "can't do anything that might upset them" - namely Christianity because of it's prevalence in our society - for example, we can't legalise gay marriage, euthanasia, abortion etc. because it might offend the Christians. As a society we are too familiar, comfortable and sensitive to conservative Christian values, which does inhibit social progress. And because of our heritage stemming from Christian values we place a lot of value on asceticism which inhibits individual fulfilment (drug and alcohol laws, sex laws such as age of consent and statutory rape).

Now, Islam, on the other hand, is nowhere near as prevalent or mainstream in our society, and because of the fear of "Islamic Terrorists" it is almost acceptable to defame Islam. So our society doesn't really care about Islam as much, and so they have less power. As well as coming almost entirely from immigration and has a very minor role in establishing our cultural heritage.

The Stuart-Mill Harm principle is I think what you're getting that there and yes that should provide the governing basis for our immigration law.

I don't do famous principles usually so I am not familiar with it. But if it agrees with me then I'm sure it's good.

 

[qawe]

Well they can't come in here and take over the culture, unless we elect them as political leaders on those policies. There is an element of conformity required to migrate to a new country, but they still should be allowed to practice their own culture where it doesn't affect others.

I can't believe you have just said that. Of course we are not going to elect them. They are going to elect themselves.

I don't do famous principles usually so I am not familiar with it. But if it agrees with me then I'm sure it's good.

lol

 

[Annihilist]

I can't believe you have just said that. Of course we are not going to elect them. They are going to elect themselves.

By the time we have a substantial majority of Muslims in our country (which will take a LONG while) many of them will likely be accustomed to our culture. But I see your point.