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Unions (2 Viewers)

townie

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the economy is not an idea. it is not run on ideas, nor is it populated by ideas. the study of the economy is a science, therefore the attempt to describe an underlying reality where, for instance, wage negotiation at the individual level may not be optimal. as a result, bouncing nice ideas around does not a reasoned economic discussion make.

also, considering the economy is simply the sum of transactions of goods and services between individuals in some arbitrary system, i don't think anything is 'more important' than the economy, as everything is the economy. "it's the economy, stupid."
To elaborate, firstly, I spend the better part of my day trying to measure the economy so I think we can dispense with the year 10 lesson on the economy. I am well aware the economy is not an idea. If you are implying that you think that I think my ideas have an economic output then you are increadibly dense. Clearly, I meant, if we had two parallel universes and my ideas were implemented in the economy in one and OzKo's in another, the ecomic output in OzKo's world would be higher then mine.

Funny, I also thought scientists used ideas all the time, I think it would be pretty hard not to.

Finally, the economy does not encompass everything. If I go and hug my friend and for those 10 seconds I feel nice, that has no measurable economic impact, I might still think being able to do that is worth more than increased output in the economy. Loving somebody is not a transaction in goods and services, nor is my happiness, thank you very much.
 

funkshen

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To elaborate, firstly, I spend the better part of my day trying to measure the economy so I think we can dispense with the year 10 lesson on the economy. I am well aware the economy is not an idea. If you are implying that you think that I think my ideas have an economic output then you are increadibly dense. Clearly, I meant, if we had two parallel universes and my ideas were implemented in the economy in one and OzKo's in another, the ecomic output in OzKo's world would be higher then mine.

Funny, I also thought scientists used ideas all the time, I think it would be pretty hard not to.

Finally, the economy does not encompass everything. If I go and hug my friend and for those 10 seconds I feel nice, that has no measurable economic impact, I might still think being able to do that is worth more than increased output in the economy. Loving somebody is not a transaction in goods and services, nor is my happiness, thank you very much.
1) congrats on working at the abs and measuring the economy
2) that is a counterfactual claim. you have no idea whether economic output would be lower or higher in the townieverse or the ozkoverse.
3) yes, scientists use ideas. excellent point.
4) your decision to hug your friend was an economic decision. it was a decision, however autonomous, on how to to spend your time. it involved an opportunity cost i.e. it was the consumption of one leisure activity at the expense of other leisure activities or selling your labour. in doing so, you satisfied a certain set of preferences (the maximisation of utility as transitive, complete and continuous preferences being the analytical foundation of microeconomics.) no, it has no measurable economic impact (are you conflating 'the economy' with GDP?). indeed, the fact is that most activities don't. but each and everyone one of your activities are inextricably intertwined with 'the economy.' how could they not be?
5) sorry for using the admittedly cold language of economics to describe patterns of interactions between people. however, i'm afraid even a loving relationship is, inevitably, an economic one. obviously this doesn't quite gel with your sensibilities. that's okay. weren't we talking about unions (an economic phenomenon)?
 
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Absolutezero

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But your arguing that all elements are economical in the same way that Orwell argued that all issues are political. Yes, it works to an extent, but surely there are better measurement systems of these activities, that may run counter the primary claim. When social issues conflict with economic issues, does the classification of social activities as parts of an economic system hold valid?
 

townie

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Re: The Thread that never Ends

RE: Power play:

It's a matter of opinion and I think you're reasoning is valid enough to not dispute it.

RE: Dispute frequencies:

You're exclusively looking at the numbers of people involved without considering how many people it takes to constitute an industry. Inroads have definitely been made to reduce disputes which I think is superb. Regardless, if all the baggage handlers at Sydney Airport went on strike, you have effectively compromised the movement of people into Australia. Strikes affect more people than just union members. I have no qualms about linking wages with inflation provided that these employees concerned are doing the same work at the same level of productivity but institutionalising this is risky as inflation could move out of reasonable bounds thus precipitating a price/wage spiral. Provided stability in the economy, I don't dispute this.
I accept that it affects more people than the union members. I accept that a strike could shut down the entire country if it was big enough. Regardless I think that that is every persons invidivual right to be able to do so. Would it annoy me? God yes, but I support the right of people to take such action. At the moment we aren't in a position where that is likely to happen. Yes, some sectors may suffer one off from a strike, but overall the economy is growing, and I don't think there is any cause for complaint about how we are travelling at the moment. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

RE: Carbon tax jobs:

As I stated, the dispute is with the carbon tax itself, not the loss of employment. The Coalition believes that the Carbon Tax is not the right way forward, and they indicate the risks of implementing the wrong policy. Essentially jobs which do not deserve to go because of poor policy are at risk. It doesn't have anything to do with an employee's performance. Arguably, the individuals being cut from the public service deserve to go because they aren't adding anything comparable to the price being paid. The ones affected by the carbon tax are worth their value, thus the argument used by the Coalition. Keep in mind, I don't like the sensationalism used by the Coalition to sell their policies. The policies themselves are valid, but I think they've taken the easy way out (as would any political party).
Why don;t the jobs deserve to go? From my understanding of your argument, if increased productivity is required through job losses, then those job losses are okay. The Carbon Tax is a cost on bussiness, therefore we can assume job losses are to increase the productivity of the bussiness owing to rising costs? Ergo they are okay by your logic.

Before you raise that the carbon tax is an avoidable impost from the government, I'd be interested to hear how you feel about tobacco taxes. Doubtless they impose a cost on tobacco companies, which we can assume has resulted in job losses in the industry, are those job losses then not good because the cost to the bussiness is government imposed? or does the benefit of less smokers outweigh that desire, because I don't see the coalition arguing against increasing tobacco taxes (ironically I am actually opposed to increased taxes on tobacco, but there you go)

RE: Risk negotiation:

Because risk is different across businesses. You can't automatically suggest that business X has the same risk as business Y because they are in the same field. Things aren't that simple. You still make a valid point though about standardising such practices, but a union isn't necessary to do this. The position being offered is different, the terms of the contract are different, the skills an individual brings to the table is different.
No I agree a union isnt necescary, but that shouldn't stop you being able to utilise one. Free market yo, the union is offering a service people are willing to pay for, isn't that what the liberal party is all about? :)

The position and terms aren't always, nor do they have to be, different, in all cases, and the skills could easily be comparable.

RE: Big Business:

If big business believes that incurring risk to save money is a decision worth pursuing, then they are entitled to do so. If a business does not value the people working for them, they would be better off moving somewhere else. If an employee is contracted for x amount of years, and no breach of contract required an early termination, then a business is entitled to say they want them to move on. That's point of a contract.
Yes, they are entitled to do so, and no doubt they will eventually succeed. But just as they are entitled to go forward, the employees are entitled to fight tooth and nail to stop them if thats what they so desire. Most people aren't contracted for X years, they are contracted, effectively, for life, until one side decides to terminate the contract, either for breach, or just because.
 

funkshen

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But your arguing that all elements are economical in the same way that Orwell argued that all issues are political. Yes, it works to an extent, but surely there are better measurement systems of these activities, that may run counter the primary claim. When social issues conflict with economic issues, does the classification of social activities as parts of an economic system hold valid?
i never said all 'elements are economical.' my point is that they're inextricably intertwined. wherever you are in space and time has everything to do with the processes of production and distribution that you and others had participated in before that very moment. society and economy are not discrete phenomena. it might be convenient to distinguish between the two for the purposes of any argument, but that can only lead to partial conclusions, no? for instance, welfare payments to the poor underclass may not be an immediately optimal policy in terms of, say, maximising output. but it keeps them complacent, i.e. not rioting. politicians ended apartheid in south africa ended after capital fled the country.

orwell's idea, that all issues are political, is a reduced truth. consider a few of the popular working definitions of politics, or the political. you have david easton's (1953), politics as the 'authoritative allocation of values in a system.' or you have bertrand de jouvenel (1956): an action becomes political whenever the help of another is a necessary condition of an individual achieving his aim. as a result, the study of politics is 'the study of the way in which aggregates are formed and of the conditions necessary for their stability.' sounds a lot like economics, doesn't it?

overall, society is produced and beseeches analysis by economics. i'm not sure what you mean by whether there are 'better measurement systems' (economics isn't a measurement system though)
 
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townie

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1) congrats on working at the abs and measuring the economy
2) that is a counterfactual claim. you have no idea whether economic output would be lower or higher in the townieverse or the ozkoverse.
3) yes, scientists use ideas. excellent point.
4) your decision to hug your friend was an economic decision. it was a decision, however autonomous, on how to to spend your time. it involved an opportunity cost i.e. it was the consumption of one leisure activity at the expense of other leisure activities or selling your labour. in doing so, you satisfied a certain set of preferences (the maximisation of utility as transitive, complete and continuous preferences being the analytical foundation of microeconomics.) no, it has no measurable economic impact (are you conflating 'the economy' with GDP?). indeed, the fact is that most activities don't. but each and everyone one of your activities are inextricably intertwined with 'the economy.' how could they not be?
5) sorry for using the admittedly cold language of economics to describe patterns of interactions between people. however, i'm afraid even a loving relationship is, inevitably, an economic one. obviously this doesn't quite gel with your sensibilities. that's okay. weren't we talking about unions (an economic phenomenon)?


2) obviously we can never know for sure, but me being an intelligent human being, can make a rational argument that they would be the case. it;s called logic and reason: look it up sometime, you seem to be lacking in it
4) People can't devote 100% of their time to labour - apart from being illegal it's not physically possible, ergo there is always going to be some time on which your deciscions have absolutely no economic impact.
5) It really isn't, even if we except your crazy time=labour thing, I am capable of economically outputting and loving at the same time and that love having zero impact on my output, admitidly, that isn't the kind of love i want personally, that doesn't mean it can't happen
 

OzKo

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2) obviously we can never know for sure, but me being an intelligent human being, can make a rational argument that they would be the case. it;s called logic and reason: look it up sometime, you seem to be lacking in it
4) People can't devote 100% of their time to labour - apart from being illegal it's not physically possible, ergo there is always going to be some time on which your deciscions have absolutely no economic impact.
5) It really isn't, even if we except your crazy time=labour thing, I am capable of economically outputting and loving at the same time and that love having zero impact on my output, admitidly, that isn't the kind of love i want personally, that doesn't mean it can't happen
Economics is a science based on choice. Time is a resource and labour is one way to use it.
 

townie

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i'm sorry, but the economy can encompass a great deal, there are some things that are beyond it, and some intangible concepts just cannot be measured by, understood or accounted for in any satisfactory way
 

enoilgam

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Re: The Thread that never Ends

this thread went full retard.

unions aren't the problem. countries like germany, finland and other scandinavian coutnries, france, and japan get along fine with tripartite employment negotiations. being a uni student who has done intermediate microeconomics doesn't mean you know anything about, or are qualified to speak on, welfare or labour economics or industrial organisation. employment and productivity are far more complicated then your trite hypothetico-deductive arguments, whether they they are in favour of collective or individual bargaining. it fucking blows my mind that naive student or partisan fucks can have the audacity to speak with such authority on how wage negotiations should, would, or could happen.

the problem is the heritage of the labor party and the labour movement. most of the organisational and leadership capacity of the party is in the unions, many of which are bloated, some of which are corrupt, and all of which are self serving. i very much doubt doubt that (unlike, say, 100 years ago) the labour movement is an appropriate foundation for a modern political movement, or an optimal way to mobilise votes. just like i doubt that being the mouthpiece for the christian right is an optimal way to mobilise votes.

newsflash: you both make horrible arguments
With all due respect and in all seriousness, what makes you more qualified to make arguments then any of us?
 

OzKo

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Re: The Thread that never Ends

Why don;t the jobs deserve to go? From my understanding of your argument, if increased productivity is required through job losses, then those job losses are okay. The Carbon Tax is a cost on bussiness, therefore we can assume job losses are to increase the productivity of the bussiness owing to rising costs? Ergo they are okay by your logic.

Before you raise that the carbon tax is an avoidable impost from the government, I'd be interested to hear how you feel about tobacco taxes. Doubtless they impose a cost on tobacco companies, which we can assume has resulted in job losses in the industry, are those job losses then not good because the cost to the bussiness is government imposed? or does the benefit of less smokers outweigh that desire, because I don't see the coalition arguing against increasing tobacco taxes (ironically I am actually opposed to increased taxes on tobacco, but there you go)
If the aim of a policy is to mitigate climate change, and you impose a policy which won't have a sizable effect, how do you justify cutting jobs?

You must have misconstrued my argument. Just because an extra cost is imposed doesn't mean that the best way to recoup the desired revenue is to cut labour. They are independent to each other.

There is good reason to impose a tax on tobacco because the cost of health care is passed onto the tax payer. Considering that you are well aware of the health effects of smoking, why do I have to pay for your health care. You, as the consumer have been granted the information and have chosen to ignore. Considering that, you should rightfully pay. Unlike the carbon tax, a tax on tobacco is justified so any job losses, if they were to arise, are acceptable.
 

OzKo

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i'm sorry, but the economy can encompass a great deal, there are some things that are beyond it, and some intangible concepts just cannot be measured by, understood or accounted for in any satisfactory way
You seem to be missing the point.

Economics doesn't have to be about the economy per se. It's about decision-making.
 

funkshen

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2) obviously we can never know for sure, but me being an intelligent human being, can make a rational argument that they would be the case. it;s called logic and reason: look it up sometime, you seem to be lacking in it
4) People can't devote 100% of their time to labour - apart from being illegal it's not physically possible, ergo there is always going to be some time on which your deciscions have absolutely no economic impact.
5) It really isn't, even if we except your crazy time=labour thing, I am capable of economically outputting and loving at the same time and that love having zero impact on my output, admitidly, that isn't the kind of love i want personally, that doesn't mean it can't happen
2) you didn't make a rational argument, you made an essentially unknowable claim. you also need to calm down though bro. i know what logic is, and it could equally be applied to refute or confirm your original claim (that output in the towniverse would be lower than the ozkoverse)
4) i never said people could devote 100% of their time to selling labour. this is nonsense.
5) dont know what you're talking about here

i'm sorry, but the economy can encompass a great deal, there are some things that are beyond it, and some intangible concepts just cannot be measured by, understood or accounted for in any satisfactory way
we're talking about economics, not 'the economy' (which you seem to equate with GDP. what about all the lovers at home such as yourself doing work that they are not compensated for with money). this is obviously cause for confusion for you. economic is the study of decision making and cause and effect relationships in the production, allocation, and consumption of resources (such as time)

With all due respect and in all seriousness, what makes you more qualified to make arguments then any of us?
i haven't made any (economic) arguments though. but im a really cool guy so that gives me a bit of cred in economic circles



townie, if you are an economic illiterate, why are you having a discussion on labour economics?
 
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enoilgam

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You have challenged everyones opinion with the implication that you know better. Do you?
 

townie

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You seem to be missing the point.

Economics doesn't have to be about the economy per se. It's about decision-making.
I think you are missing my point some intangible concepts are not deciscions, they just occur, or have no relevance on deciscions.

Look, I know some people seem to have this intense desire to be able to explain, measure and categorise everything in life (as a statistician I am accutely aware of that). But it isn't always so. I think to argue the economy, or economics is some science that can explain, measure and account for anything in the universe not only laughable but also a little bit sad.

To take the most intangible concepts there are, God and Heaven, how can economics account for them? Sure, I accept it can attempt to account for their influence on humans - but those things themselves - if they exist - economics can't possible adequately measure who or what god is, or what heaven may or may not be. To go back to a more agreeable intangible concept of love, I for once second don't accept that Love itself is a deciscion, or that economics can account for it beyond some crude accounting method. Edit: love is more than the sum total of the effects it has on my deciscions.
 
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