Students abandoning 2u maths (2 Viewers)

[enoilgam]

I know this is going to sound a bit dickheaded but in all honesty i think most of the students opting for genral instead of 2u are in fact capable of doing decently in 2u if they apply themselves. This raises the question, why aren't they applying themselves? There are several possibilities such as:

1. Perhaps a reduced work ethic and laziness, taking the "easy route" of general mathematics. This might be augmented by a genuine lack of understanding of how scaling etc. works (due to a lack of explanation by teachers for example), leading them to believe a marginally better mark in general is going to lead to a higher ATAR.

Definitely agree with you on these two points - I think a lot more students have the ability to do two unit if they were willing to put in the effort. But keep in mind, a lot of students dont really need to do that well, either because they dont want to go to uni or because they dont really need a high ATAR. So they sometimes dont bother with 2 unit because ultimately, they dont want to put in the effort when they dont have to do so.

2. It could also be an issue with how the course is run at a particular school, are more accessible topics introduced first to ease a student into the course? Does starting with a more difficult topic serve to discourage the student from continuing with a course that at first glance seems too hard?

That being said, I think the quality of teaching in maths isnt that great from what I have seen through tutoring. See, Maths is organised, clear and logical, so basically everything that a teenager isnt. When you teach maths to teenagers, you to have do so in an organised and logical manner. A lot of teachers are too lazy to explain things out properly, they just rush through an explanation and dump worksheets or textbook exercises on the kids. Even worse, some schools dont even teach the topics in a proper order, they will start with a topic which contains assumed knowledge from another topic with the kids dont even know yet.

You add all that up and basically you end up with a lot of students who have no idea what on earth is going on when they enter year 11. I was lucky because I had a drill seargent for a teacher in Years 9 and 10 who actually took the time to explain things out properly. Many students dont have that which is why they have such low confidence and skill levels in maths. I usually tutor students who are struggling in maths and one of the most common issues is that they havent been taught properly.

 

[SpiralFlex]

From a ex-high school student's point of view. Mathematics not taught properly at a early age can be problematic. My opinion anyway. (Note - I'm not saying that people who learn maths late cannot excel.) But proper discipline/guidance or misguidance early may contribute and that is why people say they haven't got any capacity to do any maths. Once in Year 11 many students may have gaps or holes in their algebra knowledge and hence find it too difficult to keep up in class and end up dropping it.

 

[albertcamus]

I know that effort is an important factor but what happened to the quote, "when the tough gets going, the going gets tough", does this even apply anymore?

So every time there is something hard, you go down to something easier and take the easy way out? I think not.

You fucked up the quote dude. 8/10 for effort. 1/10 for inaccuracy.

 

[Crobat]

From a student's point of view. Mathematics not taught properly at a early age can be problematic. My opinion anyway. (Note - I'm not saying that people who learn maths late cannot excel.) But proper discipline/guidance or misguidance early may contribute and that is why people say they haven't got any capacity to do any maths. Once in Year 11 many students may have gaps or holes in their algebra knowledge and hence find it too difficult to keep up in class and end up dropping it.

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/the-myth-of-im-bad-at-math/280914/

May interest a few people in this thread.

^ I agree with the overall sentiment in that article i.e. hardwork will get you everywhere but there are also a lot of things in that article that are just plain weird...

 

[anomalousdecay]

From a student's point of view. Mathematics not taught properly at a early age can be problematic. My opinion anyway. (Not I'm not saying that people who learn maths late cannot excel.) But proper discipline/guidance or misguidance early may contribute and that is why people say they haven't got any capacity to do any maths.

This is why the general maths course is a rote learning type course.
I agree because you can learn maths at any time, but weak foundations at a young age may lead to problems. Its like your IQ. You only strengthen that from a young age and the older you get, the harder it is to get a higher IQ after the age of 20.

Its basically the application of problem solving skills and the broadening of applying your skills in many situations. You gain this skill with practice. Its like trying to do stepovers on a football pitch. The more failed attempts, the better you can get through re-evaluating what went wrong.
Of course this can be said for many other subjects that don't require the regurgitation of random information which you don't understand how/why it happens. Even English requires the use of problem solving skills to figure what the question is asking and how to apply the information to the question, but obviously less than the skills required in maths.

And as for rote courses, anyone with half a brain can do well if they are bothered to remember stuff, which is why the majority are choosing to do general.

 

[anomalousdecay]

Once in Year 11 many students may have gaps or holes in their algebra knowledge and hence find it too difficult to keep up in class and end up dropping it.

This happened to our class. But only two dropped down by own will. Six others said that they wanted to do the course but were kicked down to general. The years 9 and 10 syllabus are purely aimed for general maths students for 5:1 and 5:2.
Sadly, only the students who do 5:3 are taught 2-unit work and algebra.

 

[Queenroot]

Personally, I was in 5.2 in year 9&10. Just missed out on 5.3, ranked overall second in 5.2. Everyone told me I had the potential to do Mathematics, although my teacher kept pushing me towards General Maths. So I chose mathematics, naturally seeing as I was the cream of the crop in 5.2.

The beginning of the Mathematics course was quite doable, but about midway through the prelim course, the exams started to get more and more difficult, and my marks plummeted (I didn't fail, but they were basically pass marks). With that, the majority of my cohort dropped to General Maths. About 60 people dropped to 40 by the end of Year 11. My marks improved slightly and I was an average student, but they were nowhere near anything I'd be happy with. The pressure to drop to General was enormous, I had second thoughts when I chose to keep being in Mathematics at the start of year 12.
I improved very slowly and with each assessment task. I thought to myself, the friends who had dropped were now in the top 5 of General Mathematics, darn it was a good idea. But, the university course I want to get into requires it as a prerequisite. So ultimately, I'd still need to know it. Hence, I concentrated and uplifted my marks in other subjects and tried my hardest in Maths too.

Even though the HSC exam raped me, I still see myself as a survivor and don't regret dropping (even though there was many benefits). And I'm willing to revise the entire Mathematics course, if I get into my desired course for Uni

Ty for reading my autobiography. Lol.

 

[anomalousdecay]

But I'm doing 2-unit next and I was recommended to do it, so I don't see why I can't cope with the coursework.

It should be fine. If you have algebra skills, you can do well. The thing with us is that our students are very, very chilled on life and don't really care about the future much. Any way, algebra is actually taught at the start of year 11 from basic year 7 principles. You get taught 5:3 in the first term basically. Its just many students can not perform a transition of no study into high study straight away.

If you grab a textbook by the end of this term and do the first few chapters (all algebra work for 2-unit prelim and HSC basically) then you can excel in the course with ease, with a great chance of a b6 if you sustain this effort.

 

[Crobat]

Thanks dude!

EDIT: What textbook would you recommend for the end of this term, since I'm planning to go through the 5.3 stuff with my tutor so I was wondering what would be good for me?

Probably the Cambridge 2u book because I think it explained things better (at least for me it did, and I was getting 30% in Year 11 ). Fitzpatrick is good for just working hard through and there are some really good trick questions as well. Once you feel competent just buy one of those Success One books that is just a collection of past papers with worked answers and just work through that. I've heard you can actually just download that/do it the longer but cheaper way by just printing off the BoS papers from their website if you're into that

 

[asdfghjklmz]

If you try hard in 2u, it shouldn't be hard

 

[Charlotte00]

As a student who dropped from 2unit down to general (and did average in 2 unit, not poorly)- I found mathematics to take way too much time and effort just for 2 units. I've had terrible maths teachers from year 7-11, so was already behind in understanding. I think if I had had better maths teachers, I would have been able to do 2 unit comfortably.
It's easy to state things like "they're not applying themselves" but not everyone has maths brains. I found that I do not want to do anything involving harder mathematics after school, so why bother with so much effort when it wouldn't count?
And don't say things like careers- the only degrees that really need that level of maths are harder sciences and engineering type courses.

Also, things like uni and the like can be taken through bridging courses etc. They might not be ideal, but it's not like not doing mathematics in year 12 will destroy your chances for some uni degrees.

But dropping down to general for scaling is a very dumb idea, it doesn't scale well at all. (Seriously, what fool thought that?)
I think you should try mathematics (since year 11 general is easy as and will take 10 minutes to catch up on) but if it's not beneficial, and you are confident what you want to do will not involve it, there is no point.

 

[Drongoski]

From a ex-high school student's point of view. Mathematics not taught properly at a early age can be problematic.

Sir, I must humbly agree with you.

I often stress to my students' parents that to do well in maths, one must have a strong early foundation. Which brings to mind a good solis pyramid with a strong broad base. Then it occurred to me that this is an incorrect view of the situation. It should be likened to an upside down pyramid standing on its apex. The base is tiny - if not strong the whole pyramid cannot stand on this foundation. What I have in mind are the initial concepts of maths: of numbers, the basic arithmetic operations, factors, division, remainder, fractions etc. On these rudimentary ideas are more and more concepts, of increasing complexity, built, growing ever exponentially as we progress through the years to year 12. So if your initial foundation, the bottom layer, is weak, the whole pyramid becomes wobbly.

I have the nagging feeling that maths in primary schools are often not well taught because, very often, the teachers who teach it are themselves wobbly in maths. In my view the idea of having one class teacher teach every subject in primary schools is a very misguided policy. The Year 6 teacher who may be outstanding in English or History may be hopeless in maths. The solution seems to me so simple. For the larger schools, there should be specialist maths teachers from year 4, say.

 

[anomalousdecay]

Sir, I must humbly agree with you.

I often stress to my students' parents that to do well in maths, one must have a strong early foundation. Which brings to mind a good solis pyramid with a strong broad base. Then it occurred to me that this is an incorrect view of the situation. It should be likened to an upside down pyramid standing on its apex. The base is tiny - if not strong the whole pyramid cannot stand on this foundation. What I have in mind are the initial concepts of maths: of numbers, the basic arithmetic operations, factors, division, remainder, fractions etc. On these rudimentary ideas are more and more concepts, of increasing complexity, built, growing ever exponentially as we progress through the years to year 12. So if your initial foundation, the bottom layer, is weak, the whole pyramid becomes wobbly.

I have the nagging feeling that maths in primary schools are often not well taught because, very often, the teachers who teach it are themselves wobbly in maths. In my view the idea of having one class teacher teach every subject in primary schools is a very misguided policy. The Year 6 teacher who may be outstanding in English or History may be hopeless in maths. The solution seems to me so simple. For the larger schools, there should be specialist maths teachers from year 4, say.

This is true. I had to go to the OC teacher (I was in another class) and ask him extra maths homework. Also, he eventually included me on the school AMC maths team (can't remember the name properly lol), which was the whole OC class, myself and two others.

This gave me the opportunity to excel in maths. However, most young students do not think about asking for more hw, rather asking for less.
There should be a proper primary school syllabus, where the students are spoon-fed Maths and English in a logical manner, with the rest of the state.

 

[enoilgam]

Sir, I must humbly agree with you.

I often stress to my students' parents that to do well in maths, one must have a strong early foundation. Which brings to mind a good solis pyramid with a strong broad base. Then it occurred to me that this is an incorrect view of the situation. It should be likened to an upside down pyramid standing on its apex. The base is tiny - if not strong the whole pyramid cannot stand on this foundation. What I have in mind are the initial concepts of maths: of numbers, the basic arithmetic operations, factors, division, remainder, fractions etc. On these rudimentary ideas are more and more concepts, of increasing complexity, built, growing ever exponentially as we progress through the years to year 12. So if your initial foundation, the bottom layer, is weak, the whole pyramid becomes wobbly.

I have the nagging feeling that maths in primary schools are often not well taught because, very often, the teachers who teach it are themselves wobbly in maths. In my view the idea of having one class teacher teach every subject in primary schools is a very misguided policy. The Year 6 teacher who may be outstanding in English or History may be hopeless in maths. The solution seems to me so simple. For the larger schools, there should be specialist maths teachers from year 4, say.

It's also a big issue in early High School as well - even though you have more qualified teachers, a lot are either useless at explaining things or they no longer have the drive to make an effort. I think that with Maths moreso than other subjects, you need to have a lot more patience and put in a lot more effort compared to other subjects.

 

[Ikki]

That is mostly true, that one must have a good foundation in maths to do well in maths. I was a weird student, at the beginning of high school I knew almost all of the content (yr7&8) so i didn't do much work but still got top 10, this made me lazy and do pretty bad in yrs 9&10 going to rank 30+.

But I did try alot harder in yr 11, and although i was having a bad start, eventually i ended up smashing the preliminary exam (3u) and coming 1st. Anyone can do well in maths, they just need to practice, and that needs time and dedication.

For 2 unit maths, we had like 21 people get 100% for first assessment, then 12 for second, then 1 person for preliminary (who got 100% for 2u overall). That was not me, i held out for first two assessments but ended up with a final percentage of 98%.

 

[ingeniarius]

I could not agree more with a strong maths foundation needing to start in primary school. I was never good at maths in Primary school, and my primary school was particularly terrible when it came to mathematics-lots of students struggled, which meant if not only did they have to cope with new maths in high school, they also had to catch up on things they should have learnt. It's absolutely ridiculous, and many students didn't catch up. The ones that did had to work much harder than their peers.
IMO not enough emphasis is placed on mathematics and sciences in schools, but that's another topic.

 

[Crobat]

IMO not enough emphasis is placed on mathematics and sciences in schools, but that's another topic.

I think this is true to an extent. Maths and Science are compulsory to Year 10, which out of 12 years in schooling (discounting pre-school) is quite considerable (forgetting for a second that science was barely touched upon in primary school). I think the issue is more on the fact that the subject contents aren't difficult/advanced enough during the earlier years, and this is coupled with the fact that teachers aren't necessarily mathematicians/scientists (or in some cases good teachers) to actually be able to teach the content (as it is) well enough to students. I hate to be generalising, but since the ATAR cut-offs for education degrees are in the low 80s, it means that anyone can become a teacher if they can commit and get a few passes for however many years a teaching degree is (3 or 4 IIRC?). I think a major benefit of university learning is that lecturers are experts in their fields, and so are very capable of being able to teach the content to any number of students. Unfortunately, primary and high school teachers don't require such levels of expertise, which I think is also quite a big issue when it really comes down to it. My Legal Studies teacher was a Lawyer and it was easy to see how his knowledge as a professional in the field qualified him to be one of the best teachers in my school in comparison to the other teachers (even the senior teachers). This isn't to say teachers are all shit or stupid or anything of the sort, but it's that their knowledge doesn't necessarily have to extent beyond the syllabus, which really limits their ability to teach in the long run.

 

[study1234]

Warning as pupils dump courses in 2-unit maths


Students are abandoning the more complex 2-unit HSC maths course in favour of the simpler ''general'' course in an attempt to maximise their Australian Tertiary Admission Rank (ATAR), but then find themselves ill-equipped to cope at university, teachers have warned.

Doesn't 2U Maths scale significantly higher than General Maths?

 

[Queenroot]

Doesn't 2U Maths scale significantly higher than General Maths?

Not really, slightly better. This year it did amazing though.