Information Technology/ Computing Degrees 2015 (2 Viewers)

[hiranija]

Hi, I'm currently looking at applying for Universities in IT/Computing and have narrowed main selections that I would consider to be my top preferences, I am expecting to get mid 70's to mid 80's for my ATAR but can't decide which I should put as my top preference, these being:
1. Bachelor of Science in Information Technology Dip IT (Professional Practice) at UTS (83 ATAR with easy bonus points 4 out of 5 points just for getting a Band 5 in SDD).
2. Bachelor of Computer Science and Technology at USyd (81.8 ATAR)
3. A range of Information Technology Degrees at UOW (75 ATAR).

UOW was initially a backup if I didn't get a 80+ ATAR as it is a distance from home, a 1hr 30mins journey by car, but using public transport and living in the Hills District/Western Sydney area, all the other universities are going to take around 1hr 30mins as well. I don't mind driving to UOW if only about 3 days a week I'll need to visit the campus, however public transport is cheaper and easier.

After a bit of research using myUniversity.gov.au, graduates in full time employment percentages for the study area seem to be highest at UOW (86.4%), then UTS (82%) then USyd at the lowest (71.4%) however 24.8% continue full time study as postgraduate, which can mean two things, either students just want to do extra study or the undergraduate degree doesn't seem to impress the employers and therefore students have to do postgraduate degrees. I know these are just numbers, but it changed my view of USyd being the best university and UOW being just a backup. Previously I thought USyd was the better option but those numbers are telling a different story. Are they just numbers, or is USyd not as good a university for IT/Computing? I guess UOW sits at the top then using that data, but is it still worth the extra cost of driving over UTS and USyd?

Which is the better degree?

 

[seventhroot]

there is no "best degree"

 

[astroman]

UTS

 

[hiranija]

And why is that?

 

[seventhroot]

pls give a few reasons why one IT degree is better than another IT degree?

you jumped to some "incorrect" conclusions in post #1

 

[hiranija]

pls give a few reasons why one IT degree is better than another IT degree?

you jumped to some "incorrect" conclusions in post #1

You replied within a second of me posting, probably didn't even read it.

 

[seventhroot]

Good on ya!
Exactly what I was thinking, he replied within a second of me posting, probably didn't even read it.

Well I skimmed through it. notsureifsarcasm

 

[brent012]

Good on ya!
Exactly what I was thinking, he replied within a second of me posting, probably didn't even read it.

Tbh, neither of them probably did.

I wouldn't put any merit in those employment averages if I were you, good graduate from any uni should have roughly the same opportunities. Theoretically if getting full time employment is the criteria I'd say the UTS BscIT course would probably edge out those others as the compulsory internship would put you in a good position to get a a full time position through it.

Comp Sci at a different uni and Bsc IT at UTS are totally different courses though, comp sci is a more mathematical and theoretical course.

 

[seventhroot]

Tbh, neither of them probably did.

of course one can tell what I've done over the internet. that probably tho

 

[hiranija]

pls give a few reasons why one IT degree is better than another IT degree?

you jumped to some "incorrect" conclusions in post #1

Im asking the question, I haven't made any conclusions,
I'm asking is that the case, or are the numbers meaningless, and then which is better and under what reason, not "there is no best degree",
I want to know disadvantages and advantages of each degree from students who are applying and know more than me about this topic or current students who have a view on these degrees.

 

[seventhroot]

Im asking the question, I haven't made any conclusions,
I'm asking is that the case, or are the numbers meaningless, and then which is better and under what reason, not "there is no best degree",
I want to know disadvantages and advantages of each degree from students who are applying and know more than me about this topic or current students who have a view on these degrees.

well you said:

which can mean two things, either students just want to do extra study or the undergraduate degree doesn't seem to impress the employers and therefore students have to do postgraduate degrees.

no it does not mean that. After I grad with a bachelors degree I plan to pursue further studies but after a bachelors you can still apply for jobs

they're all the "same thing" in the end. I think UTS is more business orientated whereas unsw/usyd are more engineering orientated. just depends on which one you like

 

[hiranija]

Tbh, neither of them probably did.

I wouldn't put any merit in those employment averages if I were you, good graduate from any uni should have roughly the same opportunities. Theoretically if getting full time employment is the criteria I'd say the UTS BscIT course would probably edge out those others as the compulsory internship would put you in a good position to get a a full time position through it.

Comp Sci at a different uni and Bsc IT at UTS are totally different courses though, comp sci is a more mathematical and theoretical course.

Now thats the sort of response I need. Thank You!
The Computer Science vs IT thing is interesting, from what people have told me, I want to have a career as a Business Analyst as its in demand and high pay which seems to also be clear in Gov. statistics as well. It seems a lot of technical jobs that require Computer Science degrees seem to be of less demand in Aus. as they are being slowly off-shored. However I could be wrong, not jumping to conclusions just yet!, I do like my Math, but I also enjoy Business.

 

[goobypls]

Now thats the sort of response I need. Thank You!
The Computer Science vs IT thing is interesting, from what people have told me, I want to have a career as a Business Analyst as its in demand and high pay which seems to also be clear in Gov. statistics as well. It seems a lot of technical jobs that require Computer Science degrees seem to be of less demand in Aus. as they are being slowly off-shored. However I could be wrong, not jumping to conclusions just yet!, I do like my Math, but I also enjoy Business.

Do the combined Business/IT degree at UTS, I think its a much better option as it leaves you with far more scope as to the careers you can pursue IMO. I'm doing this degree next year as long as I get 85 ATAR.

 

[hiranija]

Do the combined Business/IT degree at UTS, I think its a much better option as it leaves you with far more scope as to the careers you can pursue IMO. I'm doing this degree next year as long as I get 85 ATAR.

I never really looked at double degrees, it certainly looks like a good option for the type of career.

Have a look at the bonus points, it can drop to 80 ATAR with 5 bonus points quite easily. There offering 4 points for getting Band 5/6's and 2 points for Band 4's in quite a few subjects, which is fantastic!
http://www.uts.edu.au/future-students/year-12-bonus

Thanks!

 

[GoldyOrNugget]

pls give a few reasons why one IT degree is better than another IT degree?

Well one of those isn't an IT degree is it, it's a CS degree. They are not comparable. Getting a CS job with an IT degree is about as easy as getting a CS job with a biology degree. In the converse case, CS graduates have an easier time getting IT jobs, since CS graduates can specialise in IT-ish skills (networking, for example) and IT is seen as easier than CS.

USyd's CS course is miles better than the courses at the other unis you listed. USyd is internationally renowned. Employment numbers can be safely ignored. I disagree that the degrees are "all the same", as may some future employers.

The supposed trend of offshoring CS jobs to third-world countries is a myth. Outsourcing simply doesn't work; outsourced projects are completely unmaintainable. Skilled CS graduates are in extremely high demand and can expect $100k+ starting salaries overseas. However, it is true that in Australia the demand for CS workers is low, and salaries tend to cap around $70k with the exception of Google/Atlassian/Optiver/IMC/etc. which start at about $80k-$90k. A budding software engineer should consider moving to the US or Europe for the big bucks. In the US there's Silicon Valley, New York and Seattle (smaller: Austin, Boston, Portland). In Europe, there's London, Zurich and Dublin (Berlin is an up-and-comer and there's some tech presence in Munich). These are the financial and tech centres where CS salaries are among the highest.

 

[seventhroot]

Well one of those isn't an IT degree is it, it's a CS degree. They are not comparable. Getting a CS job with an IT degree is about as easy as getting a CS job with a biology degree. In the converse case, CS graduates have an easier time getting IT jobs, since CS graduates can specialise in IT-ish skills (networking, for example) and IT is seen as easier than CS.

please tell me how learning about genetics and molecular biology will help me write code

USyd's CS course is miles better than the courses at the other unis you listed. USyd is internationally renowned. Employment numbers can be safely ignored. I disagree that the degrees are "all the same", as may some future employers.

pls explain how USYD's course is "miles better". Don't you learn the same programming (C/C++, JavaScript, etc) like pretty much all the other universitied including UNSW, UWS and even AIE?

UNSW is also internationally renowned; what's your point?

The supposed trend of offshoring CS jobs to third-world countries is a myth. Outsourcing simply doesn't work; outsourced projects are completely unmaintainable. Skilled CS graduates are in extremely high demand and can expect $100k+ starting salaries overseas. However, it is true that in Australia the demand for CS workers is low, and salaries tend to cap around $70k with the exception of Google/Atlassian/Optiver/IMC/etc. which start at about $80k-$90k. A budding software engineer should consider moving to the US or Europe for the big bucks. In the US there's Silicon Valley, New York and Seattle (smaller: Austin, Boston, Portland). In Europe, there's London, Zurich and Dublin (Berlin is an up-and-comer and there's some tech presence in Munich). These are the financial and tech centres where CS salaries are among the highest.

mostly agree with this

 

[GoldyOrNugget]

please tell me how learning about genetics and molecular biology will help me write code

IT degrees may teach you basic bash scripting or whatever, but they won't teach you the fundamentals of computer science. Scripting is totally different to the kind of programming you do as a software engineer. Anyone can learn scripting in a few weeks, but computer science and software engineering take years to master.

pls explain how USYD's course is "miles better". Don't you learn the same programming (C/C++, JavaScript, etc) like pretty much all the other universitied including UNSW, UWS and even AIE?

If you're learning JavaScript at your university and you're not in a programming paradigms class, you're already screwed. The only reason JavaScript should come up in a CS course is in the context of its peculiar prototype-based object orientation model. As an academic language, it's awful.

Computer science is NOT ABOUT LEARNING LANGUAGES. It's not even about computers or programming. Computers are to computer science as telescopes are to astronomy. Computer science is largely a theoretical discipline which happens to express itself through the medium of code. In fact, the best computer science courses often have the least programming.

USyd has a better CS course than those other universities because it emphasises the theoretical aspects of computer science, from which everything else follows. The top tech companies aren't looking for people who know C++ or Javascript, they're looking for people with a thorough understanding of CS concepts. In fact, they don't care what languages you know.

Here is a link to a computer science concept. IIRC it's introduced in the second year at USyd, and the 3rd-4th year at UNSW. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursively_enumerable_language. Unless you've done a CS degree like USyd's or UNSW's, you probably won't know what the hell that's talking about. However, the language hierarchy is a fundamental concept in computer science, and the best software engineers will be totally familiar with it. It's at the root of everything you do as an engineer, and we encounter problems on a day-to-day basis that benefit from an understanding of this stuff. The developers who haven't seen this stuff (because they took an IT degree, for instance) are the developers trying to parse HTML using regular expressions and wondering why they're struggling.

UNSW is also internationally renowned; what's your point?

I know. OP didn't mention UNSW, presumably because he doesn't think he'll pass the ATAR cut-off. If he had, I would have recommended UNSW as well. UNSW and USyd are comparable in CS education quality. IMO UNSW is slightly better.

 

[seventhroot]

IT degrees may teach you basic bash scripting or whatever, but they won't teach you the fundamentals of computer science. Scripting is totally different to the kind of programming you do as a software engineer. Anyone can learn scripting in a few weeks, but computer science and software engineering take years to master.

still doesn't explain how bio will help with CS; but I agree. I've only been programming for a few months now and I am no where near a master

If you're learning JavaScript at your university and you're not in a programming paradigms class, you're already screwed. The only reason JavaScript should come up in a CS course is in the context of its peculiar prototype-based object orientation model. As an academic language, it's awful.

Computer science is NOT ABOUT LEARNING LANGUAGES. It's not even about computers or programming. Computers are to computer science as telescopes are to astronomy. Computer science is largely a theoretical discipline which happens to express itself through the medium of code. In fact, the best computer science courses often have the least programming.

USyd has a better CS course than those other universities because it emphasises the theoretical aspects of computer science, from which everything else follows. The top tech companies aren't looking for people who know C++ or Javascript, they're looking for people with a thorough understanding of CS concepts. In fact, they don't care what languages you know.

Here is a link to a computer science concept. IIRC it's introduced in the second year at USyd, and the 3rd-4th year at UNSW. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursively_enumerable_language. Unless you've done a CS degree like USyd's or UNSW's, you probably won't know what the hell that's talking about. However, the language hierarchy is a fundamental concept in computer science, and the best software engineers will be totally familiar with it. It's at the root of everything you do as an engineer, and we encounter problems on a day-to-day basis that benefit from an understanding of this stuff. The developers who haven't seen this stuff (because they took an IT degree, for instance) are the developers trying to parse HTML using regular expressions and wondering why they're struggling.

I was just using JS as an example; relax bro. I know most other languages can do it more better/efficiently/etc

I don't understand what you mean by "theoretical aspects". We at UNSW do also learn the theory and all

huehuehue root

I think I get what you mean about the theoretical aspect, as in like knowing some stuff to solve problems? please correct if I am wrong. then yeah I agree; you should know how to do these sort of things

(btw; the link you provided - BORING!! this is much more fun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_injection )

I know. OP didn't mention UNSW, presumably because he doesn't think he'll pass the ATAR cut-off. If he had, I would have recommended UNSW as well. UNSW and USyd are comparable in CS education quality. IMO UNSW is slightly better.

in the end it really doesn't matter; you'll learn the "same" (very similar) things that can be applied in the real world

 

[reallydontcare]

still doesn't explain how bio will help with CS

are you this dumb?

 

[MrBrightside]

IT degrees may teach you basic bash scripting or whatever, but they won't teach you the fundamentals of computer science. Scripting is totally different to the kind of programming you do as a software engineer. Anyone can learn scripting in a few weeks, but computer science and software engineering take years to master.

If you're learning JavaScript at your university and you're not in a programming paradigms class, you're already screwed. The only reason JavaScript should come up in a CS course is in the context of its peculiar prototype-based object orientation model. As an academic language, it's awful.

Computer science is NOT ABOUT LEARNING LANGUAGES. It's not even about computers or programming. Computers are to computer science as telescopes are to astronomy. Computer science is largely a theoretical discipline which happens to express itself through the medium of code. In fact, the best computer science courses often have the least programming.

USyd has a better CS course than those other universities because it emphasises the theoretical aspects of computer science, from which everything else follows. The top tech companies aren't looking for people who know C++ or Javascript, they're looking for people with a thorough understanding of CS concepts. In fact, they don't care what languages you know.

Here is a link to a computer science concept. IIRC it's introduced in the second year at USyd, and the 3rd-4th year at UNSW. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursively_enumerable_language. Unless you've done a CS degree like USyd's or UNSW's, you probably won't know what the hell that's talking about. However, the language hierarchy is a fundamental concept in computer science, and the best software engineers will be totally familiar with it. It's at the root of everything you do as an engineer, and we encounter problems on a day-to-day basis that benefit from an understanding of this stuff. The developers who haven't seen this stuff (because they took an IT degree, for instance) are the developers trying to parse HTML using regular expressions and wondering why they're struggling.



I know. OP didn't mention UNSW, presumably because he doesn't think he'll pass the ATAR cut-off. If he had, I would have recommended UNSW as well. UNSW and USyd are comparable in CS education quality. IMO UNSW is slightly better.

Well structured response. +1

I'm in my 3rd Year of IT atm @ UTS, and believe me, there hasn't been a semester where I haven't thought about changing to a more technical degree at a better uni who actually knows what they're doing in terms of low-level hardware and software concepts. From an IT UTS point of view, you just don't receive that insight and employers who look for this kind of conceptual understanding already know this (e.g. Google, Atlassian, Software Engineering companies). I was pretty blind going into my course, I used to think UNSW and USyd were for mostly prestigious people, but over the years, I've come to appreciate how much they actually cover in computing. I've also read up and follow a lot of famous IT people and companies, so I stay in-the-know of things quite frequently (something I didn't know much about, entering my course).

Having said that, it depends what the OP wants to do, would you rather spend time deep down learning the low-level theories of the way computers truly work (CompSci/SENG/CompEng/BioInfo), or would you prefer to be smashing out occasional code or writing reports (More IT focused, although CompSci/SENG/CompEng/BioInfo still write code, it's just that it will probably be in C, C++ if you go to UNSW or USyd, instead of a slightly higher level language like Java, where all of the low-level memory management stuff is done for you by the Java platform itself).

Note: CompEng and CompSci probably touch on a bit of assembly too when interfacing with Hardware, but my experience here is next to nothing, so I can't speak much about this, I just know the general gist of what they go through, since I have friends from all over the place and research course outlines.

Probably one of the best summaries I've read of Comp Sci to date.

I know plenty of other resources, but I won't bombard them all at once, best to see where your computing interests lie first. (Which can be sometimes really hard to know in High School). I wanted to do Comp Eng when I had the passion for it since I was 14, but was turned off by Australian job prospects (foolish fear, I now want to work overseas if it was at a big renowned tech company or Hardware Design company and the amount of Maths/Physics that would have knocked me over). I still think about transferring to this day, but I've only got 2 semester left (including this one), so I was thinking maybe doing postgrad at UNSW or something. Seems well suited, albeit, I don't really like the naming conventions of their postgrad IT/Comp Sci Master/Diploma/Cert, but their subjects/courses are pretty much second to none (I've wanted to learn more about Microprocessors and Interfacing, Operating Systems and Computer Architecture for a long time now, and my IT degree only covered a bit of the pure FUNDAMENTALS in my first semester within a week or two, quite rushed, and nothing in-depth as compared with years of study in CompSci/CompEng/SENG/BioInfo). USyd is good too, so is UoW from what I've heard and been told by friends, it's just super far from the city, be prepared to travel an hour one way for 5 days a week if you go to UoW.

Happy to answer any queries you may have. Btw, the BScIT at UTS lets you major into Programming and Networking or you can even do Data Analytics which is more maths and stats focused, but not many people choose it, because it's shit hard. Most people I know at UTS in IT end up choosing Business Info Sys, which is pretty boring, it's mainly report writing with shitty tutors who are just there to get paid. In the end, you still have to remember that it's an IT degree, so you'll be faced with more practical approaches of how existing languages and tools are used to implement solutions for people/business to use, i.e. websites, networks.

If I could major at UTS in IT, I would pick Enterprise System Dev (Coding/UI/Website Dev) or Internetworking and Applications (Programming + Networking).

PS: I'm now in a degree I don't particularly like (although there is the occasional high moment, but always that feel that I'm missing out on a lot of the low-level details) with work I don't really like. Conversely, I have Engineering friends who have had enough of the low-level stuff and want to get more into the high-level App/Website Development side of things. I guess that's an issue Universities now face; bridging the gap between Engineering and IT, and vice versa.

Also, check out UNSW's options and USyd's. Cheers.

UoW is also a good uni, especially for Computer Science. They also offer separate IT degrees. (I have at least one friend in all of the aforementioned unis and most degrees).