Looking to go maths tutoring - Talent 100, Dr Du or Mr Ye? (2 Viewers)

[CM_Tutor]

Simple.

Competition drives innovation and knowledge growth. The space race is a great example of how competition has advanced technology at unprecedented rates. You can not deny humans are fundamentally competitive, no one enjoys being below someone else. A classroom environment gives you just that, someone to aim for and hopefully one day surpass. I know myself would not have tried as hard if my peers slacked off.

CM_Tutor, your target demographic is different. Acheiving students want competition. Middling or struggling students want individualised care. This is what you may provide well.

Remember, not everyone wants to drive fast. But those who drive fast will want to see who drives the fastest.

Kindly refrain from making assumptions about me or the students who I have helped.

 

[Jordi El Nino Polla]

I get that competition is helpful for some students... but those at selective schools get that at school.

I understand the motivation of the tutoring companies, largeish / classroom groups is much more profitable than one-on-one tutoring, and I understand the appeal that the cost for each student is less. What I don't understand is the appeal of a classroom teaching style similar to school over a individualised / personalised modality, except for cost. Yes, some of the teachers in these companies are likely inspiring and more skilled than some school teachers and I don't doubt that some great teaching happens. I went to a highly selective school where many people went to tutoring and I know that the overall teaching standard was not that bad. Obviously, I am biased - I do individual tuition - but I do genuinely struggle to understand the appeal of spending hours of non-school time in more classroom-based teaching.

For me it was a couple of things that differentiated classroom-like tutoring to actual school teaching.

>Competition, as you see people from top schools and if you go to a poor school this can motivate you to work harder.

>Make more connections to friends that can help you throughout your HSC.

>Cheaper most of the time compared to one to one tutoring.

>Teacher always woke us up by throwing jokes in or forcing someone to answer questions, this makes the entire class more focused. Compare this to a school setting where students may/may not be slacking off.

>Teacher always motivated us to work hard, was extremely useful as it kept people going during the HSC.

>For my tutoring centre they posted results on the board outside so everyone can take a look at the term results (anyone in the public). Nobody wants to be last so it forces everyone to actually study.

I can't really compare it to one-to-one tutoring but that's my list of positives for a tutoring centre.

 

[Eagle Mum]

Other than cost, what is the appeal of classroom-style tutoring that is similar in nature to school teaching, as opposed to individual tuition?

Who would spend $1600/term to attend an average class at Dr Du? It's a waste of money.

Cost doesn’t appear to be an advantage of class based tutoring at some centres.

 

[icycledough]

Simple.

Competition drives innovation and knowledge growth. The space race is a great example of how competition has advanced technology at unprecedented rates. You can not deny humans are fundamentally competitive, no one enjoys being below someone else. A classroom environment gives you just that, someone to aim for and hopefully one day surpass. I know myself would not have tried as hard if my peers slacked off.

CM_Tutor, your target demographic is different. Acheiving students want competition. Middling or struggling students want individualised care. This is what you may provide well.

Remember, not everyone wants to drive fast. But those who drive fast will want to see who drives the fastest.

I could also argue that 'achieving' students may also want individualized care. If they were to go to a tutoring centre where the other students may not be providing them 'enough competition', then they may decide to pursue private, more individualized care. Private tutoring can definitely be used by achieving students; for e.g if an achieving student is mostly thorough with the syllabus and just needs to polish up on a few topics, then a private tutor can help to accommodate to the students' needs. I wouldn't make an assumption that only 'middling or struggling' students want individualized care. Achieving students may also tend to focus better with 1-1 private tutoring compared to in a classroom setting, where other students could potentially be a source of distraction for them.

 

[Eagle Mum]

Simple.

Competition drives innovation and knowledge growth. The space race is a great example of how competition has advanced technology at unprecedented rates. You can not deny humans are fundamentally competitive, no one enjoys being below someone else. A classroom environment gives you just that, someone to aim for and hopefully one day surpass. I know myself would not have tried as hard if my peers slacked off.

CM_Tutor, your target demographic is different. Acheiving students want competition. Middling or struggling students want individualised care. This is what you may provide well.

Remember, not everyone wants to drive fast. But those who drive fast will want to see who drives the fastest.

Competition may have motivated some people, but history teaches us that collaboration is often the better strategy. It has been widely thought that the falling out between Britain & Europe over whether Newton or Leibniz deserved more credit for discovering calculus slowed the Brits for some time from advancing further, whereas collaboration of their different ideas enabled Bohr, Heisenberg & Einstein to greatly advance atomic physics in a relatively short space of time.

 

[CM_Tutor]

For me it was a couple of things that differentiated classroom-like tutoring to actual school teaching.

>Competition, as you see people from top schools and if you go to a poor school this can motivate you to work harder.

>Make more connections to friends that can help you throughout your HSC.

>Cheaper most of the time compared to one to one tutoring.

>Teacher always woke us up by throwing jokes in or forcing someone to answer questions, this makes the entire class more focused. Compare this to a school setting where students may/may not be slacking off.

>Teacher always motivated us to work hard, was extremely useful as it kept people going during the HSC.

>For my tutoring centre they posted results on the board outside so everyone can take a look at the term results (anyone in the public). Nobody wants to be last so it forces everyone to actually study.

I can't really compare it to one-to-one tutoring but that's my list of positives for a tutoring centre.

Thank you for a very thoughtful response. The social aspects of the environment itself is less school-like formalised, at least for some centres, and I know that some students prefer a more structured environment. The social networking aspect for both collaborative support and friendship are not facilitated by one-to-one tutoring, so I can see that as a definite advantage for the group-based approach.

Making results public can have a motivational effect and give recognition to high achievement, but it can also be potentially demotivating / humiliating. I do not subscribe to the view that public shame is a generally suitable approach to education. I have shared my views when I thought an individual student deserved praise or needed to know that they were underperforming their ability, including in feedback to parents when appropriate, but to do so publicly feels to me to risk creating an unhelpful barrier to trust and openness between tutor and student. Greeting news of a area of weakness with understanding, support, explanation, and encouragement builds trust. My experience is that teachers asked by a student about an area of difficult being whose response leaves the student feeling like they are stupid (or feeling that that is what the teacher thinks) just ensures that the student will be reluctant to share openly and will either be discouraged from seeking help or will seek it elsewhere. The BoS trials do not publicise results by account names as we don't want to focus on marks... the exams give feedback on strengths and weaknesses and are not intended as any sort of HSC prediction. None if this is to say that the approach cannot suit a particular student's style, but rather expressing my discomfort with it as an approach.

 

[CM_Tutor]

I could also argue that 'achieving' students may also want individualized care. If they were to go to a tutoring centre where the other students may not be providing them 'enough competition', then they may decide to pursue private, more individualized care. Private tutoring can definitely be used by achieving students; for e.g if an achieving student is mostly thorough with the syllabus and just needs to polish up on a few topics, then a private tutor can help to accommodate to the students' needs. I wouldn't make an assumption that only 'middling or struggling' students want individualized care. Achieving students may also tend to focus better with 1-1 private tutoring compared to in a classroom setting, where other students could potentially be a source of distraction for them.

Thank you and I agree. I have both tutored high achieving students and been one, and believe that an individualised approach that addresses individual needs and goals has significant advantages, as can a group-based approach.

 

[CM_Tutor]

Competition may have motivated some people, but history teaches us that collaboration is often the better strategy. It has been widely thought that the falling out between Britain & Europe over whether Newton or Leibniz deserved more credit for discovering calculus slowed the Brits for some time from advancing further, whereas collaboration of their different ideas enabled Bohr, Heisenberg & Einstein to greatly advance atomic physics in a relatively short space of time.

Patriotic insistence on the primacy of work by one's one nation led the Soviets into the disaster of Lysenkoism in biology / genetics, too. Insisting on competing rather than collaborating can be beneficial so long as parties are willing to concede when a clearly superior notion is postulated. DNA structure, for example, was in part fueled by rivalries with Linus Pauling, but Pauling did not prsue his own model once the clearly superior Watson-Crick model with its evident explanations for then unexplained observations. Instead, he acknowledged their work and accepted it as a basis for advancing the field.

 

[idkkdi]

I get that competition is helpful for some students... but those at selective schools get that at school.

I understand the motivation of the tutoring companies, largeish / classroom groups is much more profitable than one-on-one tutoring, and I understand the appeal that the cost for each student is less. What I don't understand is the appeal of a classroom teaching style similar to school over a individualised / personalised modality, except for cost. Yes, some of the teachers in these companies are likely inspiring and more skilled than some school teachers and I don't doubt that some great teaching happens. I went to a highly selective school where many people went to tutoring and I know that the overall teaching standard was not that bad. Obviously, I am biased - I do individual tuition - but I do genuinely struggle to understand the appeal of spending hours of non-school time in more classroom-based teaching.

syd gram teaching quality much better than public selective schools lol.

you would be shocked by some of the teaching in public selectives lmao.

 

[idkkdi]

Cost doesn’t appear to be an advantage of class based tutoring at some centres.

Dr Du is the exception when it comes to cost lol. But they do run through holidays iirc, so maybe like 12 weeks a term, 36 hours, comes out to about $45 an hour. as far as im aware the good maths private tutors charge like 70?

 

[CM_Tutor]

Competition may have motivated some people, but history teaches us that collaboration is often the better strategy. It has been widely thought that the falling out between Britain & Europe over whether Newton or Leibniz deserved more credit for discovering calculus slowed the Brits for some time from advancing further, whereas collaboration of their different ideas enabled Bohr, Heisenberg & Einstein to greatly advance atomic physics in a relatively short space of time.

And another thought...

BoS works primarily on collaboration, recognising that the ability to explain to another is both beneficial to the other but can be valuable consolidation.

Politics and Governance at a societal level functions through competition between two major parties... and looking at the quality of the teams produce through competition for roles in local, state, and federal elections is (IMO, at least) discouraging.

 

[idkkdi]

And another thought...

BoS works primarily on collaboration, recognising that the ability to explain to another is both beneficial to the other but can be valuable consolidation.

Politics and Governance at a societal level functions through competition between two major parties... and looking at the quality of the teams produce through competition for roles in local, state, and federal elections is (IMO, at least) discouraging.

even without competition, politics and governance would probably be very discouraging. the certain type of people that thrives in the current system is much too single-natured. not enough diversity.

 

[idkkdi]

interesting. So selective schools pay teachers much more?

no syd gram pays higher then public selective schools. i normally call syd gram private but it can be called selective since u have to test into it.

selective school teachers make chump change. training ground for transition to privates sometimes haha.

 

[Jojofelyx]

no syd gram pays twice as high as public selective schools. i normally call syd gram private but it can be called selective since u have to test into it.

selective school teachers make chump change. training ground for transition to privates sometimes haha.

Is it not a private selective?

 

[idkkdi]

Is it not a private selective?

too many words for my liking.

so private schools in general pay more?

much more. well the 30-40k a yr school fees privates for sure.

 

[Eagle Mum]

Dr Du is the exception when it comes to cost lol. But they do run through holidays iirc, so maybe like 12 weeks a term, 36 hours, comes out to about $45 an hour. as far as im aware the good maths private tutors charge like 70?

There's a different 'cost' worth considering. Three hours a week plus commuting (when everyone isn't under lockdown) is a huge portion of the student's disposable time. A good 1-on-1 tutor who can make one hour a week really count is worth so much more in terms of this hidden cost.

 

[dasfas]

syd gram teaching quality much better than public selective schools lol. wages are like twice as high lmao.

you would be shocked by some of the teaching in public selectives lmao.

Did you go to SGS? Cuz while vast the majority teachers were amazing, I did have my fair share of awful teachers

 

[Drongoski]

interesting. So selective schools pay teachers much more?

When we talk about Selective Schools, we usually have the public high schools in mind. Their teachers are paid the standard public school rates.
Sydney Grammar is selective, but is a PRIVATE school. So can afford to pay its teachers more.

I don't know anything about double pay. I've never been a school teacher, but I know some better off private schools may pay their teachers about 15% - 25% more than their public school counterparts. This way they are able to poach talents from the public sector. Like in the commercial world; if you think someone is really good, you're prepared to pay him/her heaps to lure him/her away.

Often in the public debates about our Selective Schools like Ruse, Sydney Boys, Baulko etc, some members of the public often thought that the NSW Govt provide extra funding and special teachers to such schools. Selective school teachers are not 'selective'; but if you were to teach in a good Selective school, you'd be nervous if you are not at least quite good. You know this is not so. Look at the buildings in the Selective schools. I recall Baulko didnt even have a decent school hall in Yr 2000: later they got at-long-last a barn-like general purpose hall. When you compare the Govt Selective schools with the great private schools (enjoying very generous funding from the government), it's like comparing the 1st world with the 3rd world.

 

[dasfas]

No!

When we talk about Selective Schools, we usually have the public high schools in mind.
Sydney Grammar is selective, but is a PRIVATE school. So can afford to pay its teachers more.

I don't know anything about double pay. I've never been a school teacher, but I know some better off private schools may pay their teachers about 15% - 25% more than their public school counterparts. This way they are able to poach talents from the public sector. Like in the commercial world; if you think someone is really good, you're prepared to pay him/her heaps to lure him/her away.

What's the salary of teachers in public schools?

 

[idkkdi]

Did you go to SGS? Cuz while vast the majority teachers were amazing, I did have my fair share of awful teachers

I stand corrected. Although vast majority and fair share sounds like quite a reasonable ratio.