A Question of Christian Theology (2 Viewers)

[ad infinitum]

You obviously know nothing about the beliefs of a Christian. Jesus basically says that the Ten Commandments are unreachable. To look at a woman lustfully who isn't your wife is adultery. To feel unrighteous anger at someone is the same as murder. To once put something before God is a sin... once.

babble

And one sin seperates from you God... and the only way that the sin can be wiped clean (and you can go to heaven) is realising you can't save yourself and repenting of your sins... which you can do, because Jesus takes the punishment of sin (death and seperation from God) for you. There is no repetition required, no deeds being balanced. That's a rather basic description I know.

Don't expect this sick notion of vicarious redemption though child sacrifice to make sense to anyone other than the utterly deluded.

Your arrogance reminds me of this one douchebag who sees himself basically as the saviour of everyone from religion so that they can all be Secular Humanists like him. His name is Richard Dawkins...

You're the arrogant one: you proclaim to know the mind of god; you are the one who proclaims certainty. You are the one who belongs to a cult which has persecuted and converted anyone who dissents for a thousand years. No one will forgot what society was like when people like you where in charge (i.e the Inquisition). You are the bigot that presumes that you have a secret pact with 'god' and that anyone who dissents is sent to hell.

I'm quite happy to sit down and have coffee and a meaningful, reasoned discussion with anyone face to face, In fact I do so quite often. Of course they have to be somewhat close to me... and not be a little intolerant turd who attacks my rather researched opinions that I have spent a long time developing. So how about rather than sitting on your high horse of believed intellectual superiority you go home and learn something about what you're talking about.

Nothing you have said could be described as 'reasoned' or 'researched'. You are a brain washed (obviously your parents are Christians and you have been taught like a good submissive prole) cultist in a long line of brainwashed cultists, and nothing about your particular cult is worthy of my refutation. You can submit and worship your master in private, but you must leave the rest of us out of it. I do not want to be a pet, but by all means put on your invisible gimp suit and be the plaything of your 'savior' but don't you dare push your grotesques, babyish rambling on the rest of us.

 

[Teclis]

Huge and largely irrelevant - no offense.

All those sources proved was that there was most likely a man named Jesus, and that there was a rumour of his having magical powers... this is hardly evidence upon which one should base their faith. There were rumours that Julius Caeser was the son of God, and we have quickly dismissed them as fallacious - why not do the same for Jesus?

Your opinion are researched, huh? Have you read every other religious text in the world? I haven't, but I'm an atheist - by which I mean I am someone who does not believe in theistic beings. I can't be fucked to live my life by superstitions, but how can you justify believing in one religion when you haven't checked them all out? Just interested.

I haven't read EVERY religious text in the world. I could spend a lifetime doing such and still only have just begun. I did serious research into Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, Seikism, ... I have read the Quran cover to cover... I have questioned my faith at its core... THAT is I how justify what I believe.

None of the sources I named had any reason for saying he did miraculous things other than Historical evidence or as a reference. It was just an accepted fact that Yeshua ben Yosef did unexplainable miracles. So much so that Pagan Historians heard about and referenced Jesus and his the action of his followers... even though at the time there was a tiny following.

It is ridiculously unlikely that the Gospels themselves were doctored throughout history (you can follow the evidence a LONG way back).

It seems ridiculuos for 4 seperate accounts... which have their subtle differences as do any true accounts of event... were doctored (criterion of dissimilarity). And I've already mentioned the criterion of embarrassment. Luke even talks about the fact that he carefully researched what he wrote so as to give an accurate account. (Luke 1:1-4)

I'm sorry, this probably isn't very clear... I'm too tired and focused on this bloody essay right now to go into the huge explanations and Historical and philosophical thoughts on why I believe what I believe.

A scratch the surface summary.

- We exist. We exist as highly intelligent beings with higher brain functions. We exist as such even with the immense odds that evolution presented us. This doesn't neccesarily mean there is a God, but it doesn't disprove it either.

- Christian creation story never claims to be a literal account. In fact, in the original Hebrew it is closer to Poetry... and upon closer reading is more centred around the fact that God created the Universe as opposed to whether or not he did it in 6 days.

- 2000 years ago a man named Yeshua ben Yosef existed. Historical sources outside the Bible show us his name, the place and time frame of his public ministry, the name of his mother, the ambiguos nature of his birth, the name of one of his brothers, his fame as a teacher, his fame as a miracle worker/sorcerer, The attribution to him of the title "Messiah/Christ", his Kingly status in the eyes of some, the time and manner of his execution, The involvement of both the Jewish and Roman leadership in his death, the coincidence of an eclipse at the time of his death, the possible report of Jesus' follwers claiming his appearance to them after his death and finally the flourishing of a movement that worshipped him after his death.

- All these can be seen in the 4 Gospels.

- Jesus fulfills an innordinate amount of prophecies if the Bible's claims are true.

- Christianity is the only 'religion' (and I hesitate to call true Christianity anything other than a faith) where your salvation is not dependent upon your own deeds, and everything has been done for you except the acceptance of Jesus as Lord. It is also the only religion where you can be sure of your salvation. Also the only religion that relies on Historical events to prove itself. Disprove those and you disprove Christianity.

- I have seen miracles happen that Science says are impossible.

- Going back to my first thoughts... In the beginning there was nothing, and God created something vs. In the beginning there was nothing... and it exploded. Add to this the other things I know to be true (such as the reliability of the Bible as a historical source, taken seriously by academics) and maybe just maybe there is a God. Even add Occams razor to the explanation. The simpler explanation in that case would be that a God created the Universe.

- Lack of proof AGAINST the existence of God. Scientific or philosophical (without using any sort of reason).

So yea... it's kind of a Scratch the surface summary.

god....rofl....

fail troll is fail?

 

[Iron]

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not in wisdom of speech, lest the cross of Christ should be made void.
For the word of the cross, to them indeed that perish, is foolishness; but to them that are saved, that is, to us, it is the power of God.

For both the Jews require signs, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock, and unto the Gentiles foolishness:
But unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

But the foolish things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the wise; and the weak things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the strong.

 

[Teclis]

babble

Matthew 5:21-27. The idea of being above reproach and having a pure mind isn't just a Christian ideal you know... but the 10 Commandments are the guide to what is Sin and what is not. They are not how to be saved... if you think they are then you've seriously misunderstood Christianity.

Don't expect this sick notion of vicarious redemption though child sacrifice to make sense to anyone other than the utterly deluded.

I just LOVE how you take the beautiful notion of Grace and try and make it sound as hideous as possible. Christopher Hitchens much?

Although where you get Child Sacrifice from I don't know... Jesus being the son of God as a part of the Trinity, three in one? Because they are wholly the same as being wholly seperate if you are to believe the bible. It's personal sacrifice. The idea is in no way detestable. It is not, as Christopher Hitchen says, absolving you of your sins and thus immoral. It is Jesus taking the punishment for it... in this case the punishment being death.

You're the arrogant one: you proclaim to know the mind of god; you are the one who proclaims certainty.

Where did I claim to know the mind of God????????? I only claim to believe that he exists and I believe I understand SOME of the Bible, which I believe to be his word passed to us.

You are the one who belongs to a cult which has persecuted and converted anyone who dissents for a thousand years. No one will forgot what society was like when people like you where in charge (i.e the Inquisition).

No one can deny that the Church has done terrible things. But I certainly didn't do those things. I'm half German and half Irish... do you blame me for killing 6 million Jews, oppressing Europe and for terrorist bombings in Britain??? No... because I certainly didn't do those things. I agree, the Bible can be incredibly dangerous... If misunderstood or misused. The men and women who committed terrible crimes such as the Inquisition and the brutality of the Crusades were people who COMPLETELY misused the Bible and took passages out of context for their own gain. Take the text out of context and you're left with a con. Context is key. Historical and within the passage and within the book itself

Yes the bible says "Wives submit to your husbands"... and that has been abused... yet in the same passage it also says "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church..." and seeing as Christ DIED for the Church...

You are the bigot that presumes that you have a secret pact with 'god' and that anyone who dissents is sent to hell.

It's not a secret pact at all... It's right there for anyone who wants to see it... come one come all. The message is there... If you choose to ignore it, there's nothing I can do to stop you... and the consequences, whatever they may be, are your responsibility. Of course I'll share with you what I believe and why I believe it... but you're never going to hear me come at you with fire and brimstone telling you that you'll go to hell if you don't repent. That's called being a fucktard..

Nothing you have said could be described as 'reasoned' or 'researched'.

and what you've said has been? When did you become an expert of Biblical theology, philosophy, History and Science?

You are a brain washed (obviously your parents are Christians and you have been taught like a good submissive prole) cultist in a long line of brainwashed cultists, and nothing about your particular cult is worthy of my refutation.

I just LOVE how you make that assumption. Yes my parents are Christians, but it was my choice and always my choice. If you met my parents and said to them that they brainwashed me, both of them, more intelligent than you'll ever be, would laugh at you. I was never forced to go to Sunday school or Youth Group... and when I said "Prove it" to both my parents and leaders it was always "try reading this or this"... I did my OWN research... I read arguments and evidence from all sides and came to my conclusion myself... so don't you dare make assumptions about whether or not I came to this decision myself. particularly you who quite OBVIOUSLY has NO FREAKIN IDEA about the topic he's arguing!

See Tully B. (among many others) at least comes at me with something of an understanding... you're just a moron and this...

You can submit and worship your master in private, but you must leave the rest of us out of it. I do not want to be a pet, but by all means put on your invisible gimp suit and be the plaything of your 'savior' but don't you dare push your grotesques, babyish rambling on the rest of us.

proves it!

You're in a thread entitled "A Question of Christian Theology"... what'd you expect us to be talking about you git...


And I could say the same to you. Take your intolerant, angry, misdirected misunderstandings somewhere else... meanwhile the grown ups will carry on having a casual discussion trying to understand where each other is coming from.

 

[Planck]

I just LOVE how you take the beautiful notion of Grace and try and make it sound as hideous as possible. Christopher Hitchens much?

You find the concept of a person being arbitrarily executed in a hideous fashion for the 'claimed reason' of taking all of your sins upon himself, beautiful?

When a just god would clearly forgive all without requiring such an awful sacrifice?

Epicurus beat you on this point a long time ago, young man.

 

[Iron]

A just God would give humanity over to death for its wayward ways.

But a loving and compassionate God sent His only Son to take up the burden of this righteous punishment, so that we may be saved and have revealed to us the true path in life

 

[Planck]

A just God would give humanity over to death for its wayward ways.

But a loving and compassionate God sent His only Son to take up the burden of this righteous punishment, so that we may be saved and have revealed to us the true path in life

 

[Iron]

hahahahahahahaaisdufnhar;oncvjkn



tickled me jus rite

 

[tommykins]

iron's so weird i actually tried to read the hahahahha bit to see if he typed anything sublminally.

i was solely disappointed

 

[Iron]

your face is weird you limbless beachgoing burns victim

 

[Teclis]

You find the concept of a person being arbitrarily executed in a hideous fashion for the 'claimed reason' of taking all of your sins upon himself, beautiful?

When a just god would clearly forgive all without requiring such an awful sacrifice?

Epicurus beat you on this point a long time ago, young man.

No I find the concept of Grace beautiful, which is what the act of Jesus dying on the cross for us is.

I find the sacrifice of Christ hideous and painful to even think about. Crucifixion would be the WORST way to die... and for someone who basically makes Mother Theresa look like Hitler, he was the last person to deserve it.

You can't say that a just God would just forgive all... how can you? That's not justice... justice by DEFINITION is fairness/fair reward... getting what you deserve... Grace by definition is getting what you don't deserve.

If God was just without giving us Grace, we'd all go to Hell... no exceptions...

 

[Iron]

cool ur jets gandalf

 

[boo92]

well, if there is a god (which i believe there is from just looking at creation) and hes all powerful then he made us and has the right to control us. what right do we as measly little people have to demand stuff from god, especially after we have rejected him? sending people to hell is the right thing to do if they have disobeyed, just like the legal system. its the people who are going to heaven who are being treated unfairly. theyve done nothing and yet they still go there. they dont deserve what they are getting but those who go to hell are.

 

[Teclis]

cool ur jets gandalf

I have this bizarre picture of Gandalf flying on chair strapped to a whole bunch of his fireworks...

 

[Iron]

mustve been that bean he had earlier

 

[dieburndie]

well, if there is a god (which i believe there is from just looking at creation) and hes all powerful then he made us and has the right to control us. what right do we as measly little people have to demand stuff from god, especially after we have rejected him? sending people to hell is the right thing to do if they have disobeyed, just like the legal system. its the people who are going to heaven who are being treated unfairly. theyve done nothing and yet they still go there. they dont deserve what they are getting but those who go to hell are.

Please explain why humans deserve an eternity of immense suffering for simply existing.

 

[ad infinitum]

Matthew 5:21-27. The idea of being above reproach and having a pure mind isn't just a Christian ideal you know... but the 10 Commandments are the guide to what is Sin and what is not. They are not how to be saved... if you think they are then you've seriously misunderstood Christianity.

yes you are quite a confused little person.

I just LOVE how you take the beautiful notion of Grace and try and make it sound as hideous as possible. Christopher Hitchens much?

Vicarious redemption though child sacrifice is beautiful? what an incredibly disturbing and revolting individual you are.

Although where you get Child Sacrifice from I don't know... Jesus being the son of God as a part of the Trinity, three in one? Because they are wholly the same as being wholly seperate if you are to believe the bible. It's personal sacrifice. The idea is in no way detestable. It is not, as Christopher Hitchen says, absolving you of your sins and thus immoral. It is Jesus taking the punishment for it... in this case the punishment being death.

Its always funny to witness Christians blabber about the holy trinity as if it is makes an iota of sense. Did Jesus die or not? You folk say he was resurrected. Don't expect anyone who hasn't been brain washed from an early age to descend to the absurdity that is your thoughts.

Where did I claim to know the mind of God????????? I only claim to believe that he exists and I believe I understand SOME of the Bible, which I believe to be his word passed to us.

You have claimed to know, with certainty, the exact mind of god; which of our books he wrote, what he regards as sin, what he wants to 'save', and so on. With no evidence whatsoever.

No one can deny that the Church has done terrible things. But I certainly didn't do those things. I'm half German and half Irish... do you blame me for killing 6 million Jews, oppressing Europe and for terrorist bombings in Britain??? No... because I certainly didn't do those things. I agree, the Bible can be incredibly dangerous... If misunderstood or misused. The men and women who committed terrible crimes such as the Inquisition and the brutality of the Crusades were people who COMPLETELY misused the Bible and took passages out of context for their own gain. Take the text out of context and you're left with a con. Context is key. Historical and within the passage and within the book itself

the context of the Bible? A fabricated document written by a babyish bronze age dessert cult.....you seem to think it was written somewhere in gods workshop.

Yes the bible says "Wives submit to your husbands"... and that has been abused... yet in the same passage it also says "Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the Church..." and seeing as Christ DIED for the Church...

Indeed, the bible often contradicts itself; its the work of ignorant bronze age cultists....

It's not a secret pact at all... It's right there for anyone who wants to see it... come one come all. The message is there... If you choose to ignore it, there's nothing I can do to stop you... and the consequences, whatever they may be, are your responsibility. Of course I'll share with you what I believe and why I believe it... but you're never going to hear me come at you with fire and brimstone telling you that you'll go to hell if you don't repent. That's called being a fucktard..

Yes keep your delusions to yourself; don't bother me with your mania; or my children; or your own.

I just LOVE how you make that assumption. Yes my parents are Christians,

Obviously they are Christians....haahaha...if you were born in India you would be Hindu; your a Christian (like all Christians) by an accident of history and the fact that your parents are Christians.

but it was my choice and always my choice.

Thats what they all say....

If you met my parents and said to them that they brainwashed me, both of them, more intelligent than you'll ever be, would laugh at you. I was never forced to go to Sunday school or Youth Group... and when I said "Prove it" to both my parents and leaders it was always "try reading this or this"... I did my OWN research... I read arguments and evidence from all sides and came to my conclusion myself... so don't you dare make assumptions about whether or not I came to this decision myself. particularly you who quite OBVIOUSLY has NO FREAKIN IDEA about the topic he's arguing!

members of cults always claim to have 'done their research', obviously you haven't, otherwise you would be laughing at the Church instead of bowing in submission.

See Tully B. (among many others) at least comes at me with something of an understanding... you're just a moron and this...
proves it!

I'm a moron because I can easily refute the silly claims of your bronze age cult? Yea k.

You're in a thread entitled "A Question of Christian Theology"... what'd you expect us to be talking about you git...

yes it is my duty to destroy your bad ideas

And I could say the same to you. Take your intolerant, angry, misdirected misunderstandings somewhere else... meanwhile the grown ups will carry on having a casual discussion trying to understand where each other is coming from.

Grown up? You are the child; the needy child who needs to be a pet, who needs to submit to a 'father'.

You are incapable of having a debate; because you, before anything has been established, know that you are right. If not; prove it, answer the following; What information would convince you to reject Christianity and the existence of a God?

 

[SylviaB]

Requiring the blood sacrifice of your son in order to convince yourself to forgive people for something that is essentially your own fault anyway.

nicee

 

[Iron]

Obviously Christ rose from the dead and proclaimed the power of love over death, weakness over strength, virtue over sin m8

 

[Teclis]

yes you are quite a confused little person.

You know, telling people that they're confused isn't an argument... that's just called being either a) a intellectual moron... b) a dickhead... c) a troll (wait... are you a troll??? Because If so I'm quite happy to accept being Rickrolled and defeat here)

Why am I confused. Enlighten me O great one to the TRUE meaning of the Bible.

Vicarious redemption though child sacrifice is beautiful? what an incredibly disturbing and revolting individual you are.

No... Grace is beautiful.

Its always funny to witness Christians blabber about the holy trinity as if it is makes an iota of sense. Did Jesus die or not? You folk say he was resurrected. Don't expect anyone who hasn't been brain washed from an early age to descend to the absurdity that is your thoughts.

I think It's actually pretty easy to understand. God exists in three parts, wholly the same, yet seperate. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
Yes Jesus died... to deny his existence or his death on a cross is intellectual folly. And like I said in an earlier post... It was horrible and I am so immensely grateful for the fact that he chose to suffer that instead of me. That by Grace alone I am able to be saved. I am sure that the people in war who were saved by commrades who died to save them... such as men jumping on grenades... or anyone else who was saved by someone elses sacrifice for that matter... would find the fact that you find someone choosing to be sacrificed in the place of many disgusting... disgusting.

You have claimed to know, with certainty, the exact mind of god; which of our books he wrote, what he regards as sin, what he wants to 'save', and so on. With no evidence whatsoever.

Time, date, place... where did I claim that. Point it out to me. I'll take it back right now. I've never claim to know the mind of God... I only know what the Bible says... not holding a theology degree I'm not always right about the historical/cultural context as well as not being able to read New Testament Greek and a slight lack of compatability between English and Greek... I have been on occasion, wrong. I just believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. And that you can learn about the best way to live and how to be saved through it.

My evidence, as I have stated again and again... We know Historical facts about Jesus. These match up with what is in the New Testament. As a set of accounts of Jesus life and ministry the 4 Gospels stack up like a truthful account that has not been doctored.

the context of the Bible? A fabricated document written by a babyish bronze age dessert cult.....you seem to think it was written somewhere in gods wrkshop.

............................................................:mad1:

I'm talking about taking a passage out of context from within the Bible. Albert Einstein said "God does not play dice", therefore he believes in God... are you smarter than Albert Einstein? See what I did there... I took Einstein out of context and misrepresented what he believes... If you understand that he's talking about popular ideas on quantam physics, you wouldn't use the quote in that way.

Indeed, the bible often contradicts itself; its the work of ignorant bronze age cultists....

You know I'm able to be friends with most of the Atheists around me... they are tolerant of my beliefs in the true sense of the word... we agree to disagree...

I'd love to take you through what you believe are the Bible's contradictions... but I'm afraid you'd just throw the answers back without looking and say "babble".
This however is not even remotely a contradiction.

Yes keep your delusions to yourself; don't bother me with your mania; or my children; or your own.

Of course I'm not going to talk to anyone who doesn't want to listen. But sorry, If your or my Children ask me a question I'm going to answer it. Granted I'll show them my evidence as well...

Obviously they are Christians....haahaha...if you were born in India you would be Hindu; your a Christian (like all Christians) by an accident of history and the fact that your parents are Christians.

This is the most stupid thing you've said so far. Australia is multicultural. I could have just as easily been born to Atheistic, Hindu, Muslim or Christian families. I think about 40% of Australians say they are "Christian" and maybe 5 - 10% are bible believing evangelical Christians, the rest being Christmas, Easter, Wedding, Funeral and christening Christians... or some degree thereof

Thats what they all say....

Yes because in many cases, Children of Christian parents go "why on earth am I doing this? This is all i know, how do I know it is right?" And a lot of us go searching. Some choose to reject their faith, others like me choose to embrace it as their own. Granted a lot of them look at rather pathetic evidence that is biased one way or the other. I started with the origin of species, Nietzsche and the Bible... and went from there. What have you read on the topic?

members of cults always claim to have 'done their research', obviously you haven't, otherwise you would be laughing at the Church instead of bowing in submission.

There is no concrete proof (such as 1 + 1 = 2) for the existence of God. But neither is there concrete proof against. One can look at the Universe and existence and the holes in science and philosophy and our understanding of said universe and come to one of 2 conclusion. This is all that we are. This is not all that we are. The second is the most basic article of faith.

Who are you, really? And why are you here? You claim to know the working of the Universe so much so that your conclusion of the Universe is right and mine is wrong... back it up! Go on, show me Oh mighty one why your conclusion is so superior!

I'm a moron because I can easily refute the silly claims of your bronze age cult? Yea k.

How old are you? 142?

You actually haven't refuted anything. You've just sat on your perceived high horse and gone "NA NA NA NA NA You're WRONG! You're SOOOOO WRONG. HA HA HA I'm so smart and you're so dumb..."

evidence... now.

yes it is my duty to destroy your bad ideas

So you're on an Atheistic evangelistic crusade now? But I thought spreading your ideas to those who don't want to is immoral? Well at least that's the impression you give.

Grown up? You are the child; the needy child who needs to be a pet, who needs to submit to a 'father'.

I'm still waiting on an adult argument from you...

You are incapable of having a debate; because you, before anything has been established, know that you are right. If not; prove it, answer the following; What information would convince you to reject Christianity and the existence of a God?

Simple. Disprove that Jesus did what the Bible says he did. I've already said that. Christianity is based on Historical events. Without which, all is meaningless... and I can have all the premarital orgies I want and get as pissed as I want whenever I want