A Question of Christian Theology (1 Viewer)

[Ferox]

And that's where the logical absurdity comes in ... God hands down rules, doesn't follow them and we must be in reverence to his slaughter and cold-blooded murder of women, children and whoever the fuck he feels like when he wakes up of a morning simply because that same book says he is perfect as if that fixes the logical problem of a loving being coldly butchering children.

That will not wash with any rational person.

Yes, you've said that before. You haven't actually pointed out any logical absurdities because presumably you don't understand logic.

Validity

My argument was valid; you, however, have done nothing but make vague references to OT passages while simultaneously rejecting the prepositions of the OT.
If you think that God's biblical actions (killing) contradict his biblical attributes (perfection), that does not prove that God has other attributes (he's actually evil). It proves that the Bible is a load of rot--and nothing more.

Of course, the onus is on you to show why it is immoral for a divine, perfect creator to kill his creation.

 

[Name_Taken]

Of course, the onus is on you to show why it is immoral for a divine, perfect creator to kill his creation.

Yes, this exactly.

Your mistake is that you presume that despite the fact that God created us, that we are in some why equal to Him.

We are neither divine or infinte.

What is forbidden for you is not so for Him. God doesn't go around indecriminatry killing people in the way you have implied. He punishes those not worthy of life. Go read your Bible ffs >.>

What the Lord has given, the Lord may take away.

The Lord gave you life, and hence has every right to take it away. Every good thing in your life is a gift from Him and is also fair game. As Lot said, it is foolish to accept every gift from Him as granted, but not expect hardship at some point or another.

 

[Scorch]

Yes, you've said that before. You haven't actually pointed out any logical absurdities because presumably you don't understand logic.

Validity

My argument was valid; you, however, have done nothing but make vague references to OT passages while simultaneously rejecting the prepositions of the OT.
If you think that God's biblical actions (killing) contradict his biblical attributes (perfection), that does not prove that God has other attributes (he's actually evil). It proves that the Bible is a load of rot--and nothing more.

No. You're clearly not listening to me.

I am arguing that God's biblical actions should be morally repugnant to any rational human being regardless of the conditions that the Old Testament places on his existence. I hold simply that the Bible is a book full of disgusting slaughter on the part of the being that it asks us to worship and accept the love of and is thus entirely and completely morally repugnant.

As I said about five posts ago (and as you have ignored, while making a hollow, pointless and irrelevant argument) is that whilst the Bible can construct and claim that God is perfect and loving and then make excuses for his slaughter that may form a circular argument, this is not the point. His disgusting slaughter should be morally repugnant to any rational human being no matter what the Bible claims.

However your logical circle that you have created is, again, highly flawed. You are repeating the same phrases over and over again with little meaning, so let's start again.

God is claimed as loving to all, amongst other things. I hold that the wanton slaughter of some of his creations for the political or emotional gain of some of his other creations (he slaughters 42 children for making fun of Elisha, 300 men who oppose Moses politically) is inconsistent with the Biblical idea that he loves all of his creations equally (I also hold that it should be morally repugnant to any rational human being). The Bible is extremely clear in using the words hate and vengeance to describe the actions and rhetoric of God in regards to some of his creations, and this position is a polar opposite to a position of equal love.

Now the fact that the Bible concurrently claims that God and all he does is perfect does not in anyway make this any less contradictory. The Bible can say whatever the fuck is likes about God (and evidently does), but it is clearly inconsistent and contradictory.

God doesn't go around indecriminatry killing people in the way you have implied. He punishes those not worthy of life. Go read your Bible ffs >.>

Yes, you said that before. The problem is that you're flat out fucking wrong. Would you like to address my list of people killed by God in the Bible (not complete there are many more) and his reasons complete with Bible verses that I posted?

They weren't innocent? Okay let's see. Here is a list of just a section of the people killed in the Old Testament:
1. A man who refused to impregnate his brother's widow (Ge 38:7-10).

2. Two men who offered God incense that he had not authorized (Le 10:1-2).

3. A group of about 300 people who opposed Moses politically (Nu 16:1-35).

4. Another group of 14,700 who sympathized with the first group (Nu 16:49).

5. More people who complained about the food and other matters (Nu 21:4-6).

6. 24,000 more because of some who worshiped Baal (Nu 25:3,9).

7. The Amorites who besieged Gibeon (Jos 10:10-11).

8. Seventy men who looked into a box (1Sa 6:19).

9. Another man who, with good intention, touched the box (2Sa 6:6-7).

10. A man who refused to use his weapon against another man (1Ki 20:35-36).

11. Forty-two children who called Elisha "baldy" (2Ki 2:23-24).

12. 185,000 Assyrian soldiers (2Ki 19:35).

God also killed all of Pharaoh's horsemen in the Red Sea (Ex 14:26-28). He could instead have simply made their horses lame, which would have been far more effective than removing the wheels from the chariots so that the horses had to drag the chariots slowly along the ground (Ex 14:25). That would have also spared the horsemen.

In addition to killing people directly, God also ordered several people killed (despite his commandment not to kill). Here are some examples of people who died by God's order (and in some cases with God's help):

1. Three thousand of the Levites' brothers, friends, and neighbors, who had become unruly (Exodus 32:27-28).

2. All the men, women, and children in all seven of the tribes who were the Israelites' neighbors (Dt 2:34, 3:6, 7:1-2,16, 20:16-17). [Some Biblical verses imply that the Israelites numbered 2-3 million, which would make the total population of their neighbors more than 14 million. What God was here ordering, then, if we could go by those verses, was a kind of Holocaust.]

3. All the men, women, and children of the cities of Jericho, Ai, and dozens more cities and towns (Jos 6:21, 8:24-26, 10:26-42, 11:10-23, 21:44).

4. All the Amalekites, including children, and even animals (1Sa 15:3,18), [where Saul was severely punished for sparing some of them].

5. All the members of the house of Ahab and ministers of Baal within Israel, the latter accomplished through deception (2Ki 10:11-25), though approved by God (10:30).

6. All the citizens of Jerusalem, including children, who did not grieve and lament over sins committed in it (Eze 9:4-6).

It seems quite unethical for God to order the execution of so many people, whatever their offense might have been, especially in the case of the children, who were presumably innocent.

Closely related to the above is the extravagant use of capital punishment among God's chosen people. God ordered people put to death for such minor offenses as the following:

1. Consulting a witch (Le 20:6; Dt 18:11).

2. Blasphemy or merely having a different religion (Ex 22:20; Le 24:10-23; Dt 13:1-15, 17:2-5, 18:20; Jos 23:7,16; 1Ki 18:40).

3. Gathering sticks or kindling a fire on the Sabbath (Ex 31:14-15, 35:2-3; Nu 15:32-36).

4. Eating the wrong food (Ex 12:15,19; Le 3:16-17, 7:22,25-27, 17:10-16).

5. Being a disrespectful or disobedient child (Le 20:9; Dt 21:18-21).

 

[mcflystargirl]

No. You're clearly not listening to me.

I am arguing that God's biblical actions should be morally repugnant to any rational human being regardless of the conditions that the Old Testament places on his existence. I hold simply that the Bible is a book full of disgusting slaughter on the part of the being that it asks us to worship and accept the love of and is thus entirely and completely morally repugnant.

As I said about five posts ago (and as you have ignored, while making a hollow, pointless and irrelevant argument) is that whilst the Bible can construct and claim that God is perfect and loving and then make excuses for his slaughter that may form a circular argument, this is not the point. His disgusting slaughter should be morally repugnant to any rational human being no matter what the Bible claims.

However your logical circle that you have created is, again, highly flawed. You are repeating the same phrases over and over again with little meaning, so let's start again.

God is claimed as loving to all, amongst other things. I hold that the wanton slaughter of some of his creations for the political or emotional gain of some of his other creations (he slaughters 42 children for making fun of Elisha, 300 men who oppose Moses politically) is inconsistent with the Biblical idea that he loves all of his creations equally (I also hold that it should be morally repugnant to any rational human being). The Bible is extremely clear in using the words hate and vengeance to describe the actions and rhetoric of God in regards to some of his creations, and this position is a polar opposite to a position of equal love.

Now the fact that the Bible concurrently claims that God and all he does is perfect does not in anyway make this any less contradictory. The Bible can say whatever the fuck is likes about God (and evidently does), but it is clearly inconsistent and contradictory.



Yes, you said that before. The problem is that you're flat out fucking wrong. Would you like to address my list of people killed by God in the Bible (not complete there are many more) and his reasons complete with Bible verses that I posted?

You do not understand, so many people place so much emphasis on the fact God is Love, that they also ignore that he is Powerful, and just and will and has already has in some ways judge. This is well within his rights the punishment for our sin is death.

God does not let any sin go unpunished. He is completely just.

 

[Ferox]

His disgusting slaughter should be morally repugnant to any rational human being no matter what the Bible claims.

Evidently I'm extremely stupid. So you'll have to explain, why can't God kill his creation? I made a valid argument a few posts back on why he could; you haven't addressed that. Instead you've appealed to common reason, which is, of course, a logical fallacy! Say it with me: 'logical fallacy'!

 

[Bereie]

mcflystargirl your posts are all shit.

 

[Ferox]

Wow, as shit-full as mcflystargirl's post may or may not be, you managed to make the worst post in this thread yet.

 

[mcflystargirl]

mcflystargirl your posts are all shit.

ok

 

[Name_Taken]

No. You're clearly not listening to me.

I am arguing that God's biblical actions should be morally repugnant to any rational human being regardless of the conditions that the Old Testament places on his existence. I hold simply that the Bible is a book full of disgusting slaughter on the part of the being that it asks us to worship and accept the love of and is thus entirely and completely morally repugnant.

Take this up with some Orthodox Jew.

Yes, you said that before. The problem is that you're flat out fucking wrong. Would you like to address my list of people killed by God in the Bible (not complete there are many more) and his reasons complete with Bible verses that I posted?

Ok, firstly, this isn't your list. The exact same list can be found here:
The Argument from the Bible

Even so, I'll got through the first three on the list, seriously ceebs going through all of them (I think that is reasonable enough).

1. A man who refused to impregnate his brother's widow (Ge 38:7-10).

Gen 38:7-10 reads; But Er, Judag's firstborn, was wicked in the Lord's sight; so the Lord put him to death. Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fufill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother". But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whnever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the Lords sight; so he put him to death also.

Read the Mosaic code, what he did was sinful and punishable by death anyway.

2. Two men who offered God incense that he had not authorized (Le 10:1-2).

Leviticus 10:1-2; Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fore before the Lord, contrary to his command. So fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord.

Again, hardly inncent of any crime at all.

3. A group of about 300 people who opposed Moses politically (Nu 16:1-35).

Well I can't be bothered writing out all of this, its a long set of passages. The number of people was 250 however (so either the author of the list is not familiar with the passage himself or is blatently dishonest). And it wasn't a political killing, the passage even says it because they treated the Lord with contempt >.>

Have you even read the Bible or does your limited knowledge come from googleing "bible contradictions"?

God told the Israelites to "move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram" (Numbers 16:24). Moses told them this, but instead they organised a rebellion. The ground opened up beneatht them and they got owned.

In this passage we can see God not only punishing the unrighteous, but also warning those who have done nothing wrong, so that they do not suffer either. God does love everyone, but if you show nothing but contempt for Him, then what can you expect, aside from punishment as justice for your crimes?

Numbers 16:28-30 (Moses addressing the Isralites, just before the 250 were consumed).
Then Moses said, "This is how you will know the Lord has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea: If these men die a natural death and experience only what ususally happens to men, then the Lord has not sent me. But if the Lord brings about something totally new, and the Earth opens its mouth and swallows them with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the grave, then you will know that these men have treated the Lord with contempt.

Sin does not go unpunished.

 

[trickx]

[youtube]PK7P7uZFf5o[/youtube]

[youtube]AqfGu6vTxFY[/youtube]

... address the implications and notions of these videos convincingly and you may have the ghost of a point.

 

[Name_Taken]

[youtube]PK7P7uZFf5o[/youtube]

[youtube]AqfGu6vTxFY[/youtube]

... address the implications and notions of these videos convincingly and you may have the ghost of a point.

First, please justify why I should bother wasting my time responding to videos you simply have just linked from another website, when I know that even if I did go to the effort of actually explaining each of those passages, that you would most likely dismiss everything I have to say on face value, and would be completely unable to respond to my arguements anyway, except by perhaps linking us to a new video.

By googleing "bible contradictions," and expecting every thiest you meet to drop everything and respond is not actually proving anything. I suggest you read the Bible yourself, and make up your own mind, rather than subscribing to the views of others so willingly, and passing their arguements as justification for your own position.

In fairness, I could seriously copy paste walls of text of religious justification here for you and endless videos about the legitimacy of the Bible, and then ask you to respond to every point made. Would you do it?

I have nothing wrong with actually discussing questions or your own arugements or anything, but come on, anyone can copy + paste.

Sorry if this comes off as harsh or anything, but like seriously mate, please be reasonable.

 

[trickx]

First, please justify why I should bother wasting my time responding to videos you simply have just linked from another website, when I know that even if I did go to the effort of actually explaining each of those passages, that you would most likely dismiss everything I have to say on face value, and would be completely unable to respond to my arguements anyway, except by perhaps linking us to a new video.

By googleing "bible contradictions," and expecting every thiest you meet to drop everything and respond is not actually proving anything. I suggest you read the Bible yourself, and make up your own mind, rather than subscribing to the views of others so willingly, and passing their arguements as justification for your own position.

In fairness, I could seriously copy paste walls of text of religious justification here for you and endless videos about the legitimacy of the Bible, and then ask you to respond to every point made. Would you do it?

I have nothing wrong with actually discussing questions or your own arugements or anything, but come on, anyone can copy + paste.

Sorry if this comes off as harsh or anything, but like seriously mate, please be reasonable.

Well, I could not phrase my inquiry better than nonstampcollector. I share his views and the two videos are quite brilliant in displaying them.

I don't have the slightest intention of proving anything, let alone the unusual spritual contrast of old and new testaments. I'm asking you to respond to how you take the old testament so morally seriously and defend the actions of yahweh, and why you burden yourself with such a thing. But more importantly, why the context within which yahweh threatens, commands, condemns and commits these acts display optimal morality?

I highly doubt you could address them reasonably, but if you can .. I won't be so quite as intellectually dishonest as you suppose.

Check the user out btw, quite famous around the atheist community - very underrated. His videos are very much theologically based and takes on concepts very fairly even though his videos are satirical. I think he's speaking at the Australian Atheist Convention in Melbourne later this year along with Dawkins.