Abortion debate (3 Viewers)

[Xayma]

erm...this has NOTHING to do with religion - it's just common sense that the foetus is a living thing. Look at the science - by 4 weeks after fertilisation the foetus has eyes, a beating heart, a central nervous system and infact the part of the brain that controls consciousness is identifiable by this stage. Keep religion out of this.

A central nervous system? That's a fair jump. Ok keeping religion out of this, why is it unethical to remove something from a system where it cannot survive on it's own but uses the resources of another? The mother can't surgically transfer the baby, if that could happen there would be greater reasoning but they can't.

 

[davin]

You continue to use it like you know what it actually means. Clearly you don't. Left wingism isn't exactly against killing adults who break the law. Communist China and other left wing dictatorships happen to quite like the death penality. I think you are getting left wing confused with libertarian views. I don't think anyone is surprised anyway.

a "communist" country is not left-wing. its a dictatorship, and dictatorships, in many regards, aren't left-wing when it comes to personal freedoms, as communism is just an economic form.
Most of Europe, though, would be considered more left-wing, which is why there's a continuing movement to get rid of the death penalty. In The U.S., is the political left wing that is trying to remove the death penalty.

 

[HotShot]

A central nervous system? That's a fair jump. Ok keeping religion out of this, why is it unethical to remove something from a system where it cannot survive on it's own but uses the resources of another? The mother can't surgically transfer the baby, if that could happen there would be greater reasoning but they can't.

doesnt the heart, the brain - might as well remove those too. stupid statement.

the fact is the the mother owns the baby, but so does her relatives. thus the choice to have an abortion is only justified if, it approved by close relatives. Because trust me, having an abortion, doesnt only affect the women, but will have the same or greater affect on her relatives.

The abortion should not lie on ethics, if you feel its rite and you have ur family to support me, then by all mean u have every right to have an abortion.

 

[Xayma]

doesnt the heart, the brain - might as well remove those too. stupid statement.

the fact is the the mother owns the baby, but so does her relatives. thus the choice to have an abortion is only justified if, it approved by close relatives. Because trust me, having an abortion, doesnt only affect the women, but will have the same or greater affect on her relatives.

The abortion should not lie on ethics, if you feel its rite and you have ur family to support me, then by all mean u have every right to have an abortion.

Umm why should relatives have a say? It isn't their body. Last time I checked my mother or father don't have control over what I do, nor would I wish them too no matter how much my decisions might affect them emotionally.

 

[davin]

father of child is only one that has a strong claim to it.

anyway, i'd differentiate between a fetus, or the brain or heart is that the fetus is, effectivly, a parasite. its like a tapeworm a woman gives birth to

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

Umm why should relatives have a say? It isn't their body. Last time I checked my mother or father don't have control over what I do, nor would I wish them too no matter how much my decisions might affect them emotionally.

yeah unless u were a disabled kid.. or unable to fend for urself..

 

[Xayma]

yeah unless u were a disabled kid.. or unable to fend for urself..

If I required parental care to such an extent that my parents become responsible for me I would hope that they stopped me getting pregnant. If I can not look after myself, then the whole issue changes.

 

[musik_junky]

why is it unethical to remove something from a system where it cannot survive on it's own but uses the resources of another?

Wait hang on - what you just said has other implications. Are you saying its not unethical to kill the foetus because it can't survive on its own? Well even after birth, the baby can't survive on its own - its still dependent on its mother to provide it with food etc. This includes nutrients from the mothers body (breast milk). So are you saying its ok to kill the baby after birth because its still reliant on the mother, so the mother has the right to kill it?

Also the fact that it uses nutrients while still in the womb shows that it is infact living.

 

[ihavenothing]

I think that women should be the ONLY people to make an ultimatum, male politicians such as Tony Abbott have hijacked this debate have no idea what it must feel like for the woman and use their religious values to further hinder the process.

 

[erawamai]

a "communist" country is not left-wing. its a dictatorship, and dictatorships, in many regards, aren't left-wing when it comes to personal freedoms, as communism is just an economic form.
Most of Europe, though, would be considered more left-wing, which is why there's a continuing movement to get rid of the death penalty. In The U.S., is the political left wing that is trying to remove the death penalty.

Economic left wing.

 

[Xayma]

Wait hang on - what you just said has other implications. Are you saying its not unethical to kill the foetus because it can't survive on its own? Well even after birth, the baby can't survive on its own - its still dependent on its mother to provide it with food etc. This includes nutrients from the mothers body (breast milk). So are you saying its ok to kill the baby after birth because its still reliant on the mother, so the mother has the right to kill it?

Also the fact that it uses nutrients while still in the womb shows that it is infact living.

A cancer tumor uses nutrients as well.

Society has accepted that the mother cannot in all cases provide for the baby, so things like adoption are available because society wants babies to live.

 

[musik_junky]

Society has accepted that the mother cannot in all cases provide for the baby, so things like adoption are available because society wants babies to live.

Then instead of having an abortion, she can have the baby and give it away for adoption.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

Then instead of having an abortion, she can have the baby and give it away for adoption.

live adopted babies and parents of adopted babies have psychological problems too.. there are hundreds of studies on it..

i agree its the lesser of 2 evils but its not always the solution..

Well even after birth, the baby can't survive on its own - its still dependent on its mother to provide it with food etc. This includes nutrients from the mothers body (breast milk)..

yes before birth its EXPLICITLY the mother that the foetus is dependent on... u cant bottle feed in the womb... or palm it off to dad.

Post partum its 'recommended' (yep ..NHMRC guidelines)
- to be breast fed for at least the 1st 6 months..

but we can say.. feed the child bottle milk and get nutured by another person(e.g. Dad).. if the mother had HIV and mabbe associated depression.. and the child would still live

2 very different scenerios

Also the fact that it uses nutrients while still in the womb shows that it is infact living.

living.. it maybe..
but so do plants.. it does not show a higher level of consciousness nor CNS development... unless u can prove otherwise

 

[musik_junky]

living.. it maybe.. but so do plants.. it does not show a higher level of consciousness nor CNS development... unless u can prove otherwise

hey, check out this book - Encyclopedia of Human Biology. Academic Press, 1997. Volume 3. It says that the portion of the brain associated with consciousness (the cerebrum) is identifiable by 4 weeks after fertilisation.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

does it say if it were working?
cos i can identify penis at about 6 weeks.. and it develops finish by 14 weeks but it doesnt do jack in the womb

 

[musik_junky]

Volume 113 of the American Medical Association Journal states that brain wave activity (indicating that the brain is functioning) is identifiable only 40 days after fertilisation.

 

[davin]

I think that women should be the ONLY people to make an ultimatum, male politicians such as Tony Abbott have hijacked this debate have no idea what it must feel like for the woman and use their religious values to further hinder the process.

i agree fully. similarly, only men can talk about rape laws vs women, because they're effectivly the only ones capable of raping a woman under traditional definitions of it.


guys may not be in the position of aborting ever, but we ALL were in the position where we could've been aborted.

 

[HotShot]

Umm why should relatives have a say? It isn't their body. Last time I checked my mother or father don't have control over what I do, nor would I wish them too no matter how much my decisions might affect them emotionally.

well maybe the baby should have his/her say? according to you. Just imagine, your mom "aborted" u for whatever reason, you wouldnt be here now....

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

Volume 113 of the American Medical Association Journal states that brain wave activity (indicating that the brain is functioning) is identifiable only 40 days after fertilisation.

i am familiar with JAMA.

and that article from "Volume 113 "would have to be from mid-1950's..
how u got that is beyond me so if ud forward it to me

lolz even JAMA online don't have articles pre-dating 1966

see id love to believe u
but brain wave activity is a sign of functioning but not consciousness
.. some reflexes are not conscious..
but are result of nerve impluses and lower brain function..
they exist in brain dead ppl too...

which
incidently i am trying to think hard how 50 yrs ago they measured brain waves.. prolly EEG...somewhat a crude method compared to modern imaging and dyes..

srsly tho.. does the article specifically refer to consciousness or just the brain.. ?

 

[musik_junky]

Look lets just put all the religion and emotional debate aside.

Look at the facts already discussed on here:

1. The portion of the brain associated with consciousness (the cerebrum) is identifiable by 4 weeks after fertilisation.

2. Brain wave activity (indicating that the brain is functioning) is identifiable only 40 days after fertilisation.

3. The heart is beating by 4 weeks.

The SCIENCE shows that the foetus is alive.