Accounting vs Investment Banking (2 Viewers)

[mr_shittles]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

Not if it started from my post, but my post merely corrected turtleface's statement that an accounting degree could get you *any* position in finance.

Yeah, i think even turtle probably doesn't beleive that statement.

To be honest, no investment banking VP could make the switch to audit partner of say, an insurance company. Clearly, there are technical elements of auditing an insurance company that preclide anyone other than an experienced CA-qualified auditor from undertaking such an engagement.

The notioon that by simply doing a degree you can walk into a job in a particular field is just stupid. You need to be a suitable candidate that is appropriately qualified, has the right mix of skills, intellectual ability, etc. Its the same for any job you apply for . . .

 

[ND]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

ND, lots of people regard it as 2nd tier as its quite small here. Not to downplay your good work in securing the internship

Who exactly?

I really find it hard to believe that anybody can consider it 2nd tier (especially given that it's the 3rd largest, as indicated by Mr Shittles).

 

[lizbon]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

Yeah, i think even turtle probably doesn't beleive that statement.

To be honest, no investment banking VP could make the switch to audit partner of say, an insurance company. Clearly, there are technical elements of auditing an insurance company that preclide anyone other than an experienced CA-qualified auditor from undertaking such an engagement.

The notioon that by simply doing a degree you can walk into a job in a particular field is just stupid. You need to be a suitable candidate that is appropriately qualified, has the right mix of skills, intellectual ability, etc. Its the same for any job you apply for . . .

i agree, people saying how an auditor is a shoe in for an IB job when they want is kidding themselves, the reason it might tbe easier to get into IB for auditor or any accountant for that matter is the fact they've had experience in a professional environment & dealt with business fundamentals. But, this is the case for anyone whos worked in any business specialisation....not just audit.

 

[turtleface]

Re: Accounting Cadetships

The notioon that by simply doing a degree you can walk into a job in a particular field is just stupid. You need to be a suitable candidate that is appropriately qualified, has the right mix of skills, intellectual ability, etc. Its the same for any job you apply for . . .

i agree, people saying how an auditor is a shoe in for an IB job when they want is kidding themselves,

who's actually said that though?

Maybe I was misinterpreted. I originally said that you could get into Finance jobs with an Accounting major only (no Finance major), but you could not get into an Accounting job with only a Finance major.

I'll stand corrected on the more mathematical Finance-y jobs where it is conceivably more difficult for a pure Accountant to get into as they usually require a more quantitative, numbers based background than accounting provides.

However, for jobs in Investment Banking, Retail Banking, Fund Management, Equities Research/Analysis etc., Financial Planning etc. I think its well established that just having an Accounting background can get you in. Hence why CAs, CPAs and non qualified Accountants do fill those roles.

Obviously just having a major won't get you in automatically. But thats stating the obvious. Just having a Finance major won't get you in either. I'm talking about initial academic requirements for eligibility to apply for certain jobs.

I also stand by the second part of my comment. A single Finance major won't get you into most mainstream Accounting roles. The only *possible* areas of Accounting I can envisage where a single Finance major is viable is in the areas of Corporate Finance (aka investment Banking big 4 style, without the funding aspect) and more obscure quasi accounting/finance areas like Financial Planning, Risk Management, Internal audit etc.

I really find it hard to believe that anybody can consider it 2nd tier (especially given that it's the 3rd largest, as indicated by Mr Shittles).

yeah GSJBW is definately first tier imo. Doesn't it have the biggest IBD internationally as well?

---
edit:
come to think of it I have never know anyone to get into the IBD of an IBank based on Finance qualifications alone. They are always of either an Accounting, Engineering, Science etc. background, or are a single major in Finance with a degree in Law.

 

[turtleface]

My take on salary comparisons for graduates (most of these figures are pulled outta my *** but they're my best estimate)
Please correct me if you disagree

Base Pay:
Big 4 audit: 45K
IBD Corp Fin/M&A advisory: 70-90K

Hours:
Big 4 audit: 40-45hrs per week on average
IBD Corp Fin/M&A advisory: 80-120hrs per week on average

Bonuses:
Big 4 audit: none/some nominal amount of a few thousand
IBD Corp Fin/M&A advisory: 0-80K+ most likely about 20-40K

Grads taken each year:
Big 4 audit: ~1000
IBD Corp Fin/M&A advisory (top 4 - I'm guessing): ~30
(I guessed the no. of grads taken each year for the top 4 IBDs...pls correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[csmg]

lol listen to you grad smartasses...

who am i?

someone who has actually been there and done that "succesfully".... unlike naive grads who have been completely brainwashed into thinking they're king shit at the firm.

my problem is smartasses like you lot, who spread misinformation about what is possible.

i want you kids to look back on this thread one day, and realise how dumb and naive you are.

 

[csmg]

expected fkn imature reply: (in the honky english accent)

OHHHH HE TRIED TO GET INTO IB, BUT WAS REJECTED... THAT'S WHY HE HAS THAT POINT OF VIEW.

No fktard. Nothing like that at all.

Hey, I got an idea, let's all share who we really are... so we can see how UNQUALIFIED and NAIVE you kiddies are.

LETS ALL SPREAD MISINFORMATION HOW WE'RE GOING TO SAVE THE WORLD BY BEING AN AUDITOR IN A BIG 4 FIRM.. AND WE'RE GOING TO GO PLACES!!!!!

 

[ikabod]

I never actually thought I would post in this forum...but I couldn't resist after reading the posts of the obviously intelligent and charasmatic csmg.

First of all, I'd like to point out that putting quotation marks around a remark that is not a quote implies sarcasm. So with regard to your comment below, to people out there with grammar skills it reads as though you are implying sarcasm when you say you are successful. Though I wholeheartedly agree that you are not successful, I don't think that is what you intended to say.

someone who has actually been there and done that "succesfully"

Secondly, I would like to remind you csmg that this forum is targeted to high school and university students who have not (for the mostpart) entered the workforce. This implies the following:

a) If you indeed have "been there and done that", and been successful in your career endeavors, you may wish to consider how sad it is that you are frequenting a forum designed for people to whom you are so obviously "superior"
***see the correct use of quotation marks for sarcasm - fantastic isn't it?!"***

b) People here are predominantly students looking for career information, so of course they are relatively "unqualified and naive" - they aren't qualified to enter the workforce in thier chosen fields yet and therefore can't have a huge level of firsthand knowledge. So if you want to make an insightful comment, try not to state the obvious.

c) You are a dougebag. :rofl:


To the rest of you Bos'ers:

It's unfortunate my first post here has been so negative. I started reading this forum a few months ago when applying for Summer Internships, and found everyone's opinions/experiences/knowledge really helpful. So thanks to all for your posts!

/end rant

p.s Go Investment Banking!!! hehe

 

[csmg]

I applaud you for seeing the sarcasm.

Except, you seem to have misunderstood the extent of the sarcasm.

Please learn. Please.

 

[Conspirocy]

expected fkn imature reply: (in the honky english accent)

OHHHH HE TRIED TO GET INTO IB, BUT WAS REJECTED... THAT'S WHY HE HAS THAT POINT OF VIEW.

No fktard. Nothing like that at all.

Hey, I got an idea, let's all share who we really are... so we can see how UNQUALIFIED and NAIVE you kiddies are.

LETS ALL SPREAD MISINFORMATION HOW WE'RE GOING TO SAVE THE WORLD BY BEING AN AUDITOR IN A BIG 4 FIRM.. AND WE'RE GOING TO GO PLACES!!!!!

again I said that I will not work in audit. I'll be the first to admit I haven’t worked anywhere, and have done so the whole time. If you want to share who you are feel free, and if you do and prove it, I have no problem saying who I am. But in my naive defence, I might have to name drop the people I know who have told me about the respective fields in length. I'd probably have to post up everything I have ever read from a credible source about these topics, even though I will admit that there are some areas where this will probably be misinformation. It will probably be misinformation that was sent out by the firms in the first place, so I wouldn't go judging people for being mislead by dishonest *cough cough*



No one said they were going to save the world; those are your own words. In fact I pointed out there are many roles in accounting that are not audit, I'll list them again: tax, risk management, business recovery, insolvency, business reconstruction, company secretarial services, and compliance to name but a few

 

[csmg]

Finally, a decent response! Someone who wants to open their eyes, and not just swallow everything which is given to them.

If you listen only to people who work in an industry and are positive about it, you should realise one very important thing: To a large extent they will be SELF VALIDATING.

They will be saying it's all great, it's all possible, and it's all good, to MAKE THEMSELVES FEEL GOOD.

Most of the people here who claim to know everything about this audit v IB debate, about jumping from audit to IB, know jack shit. They have not been there, they have not done it.

They're fresh university grads who are willing to believe everything which is told to them, to give themselves hope.

They're fresh university grads who will say it's great, to make themselves feel good about their job and long hours.

As for your list...
tax = not audit
risk management = glorified audit
business recovery = glorified audit
insolvency = glorified audit
business reconstruction = glorified audit
company secretarial services = glorified audit
compliance = audit

 

[redruM]

Isn't the general thought: audit to Corp Fin to IB?

 

[Conspirocy]

As for your list...
tax = not audit
risk management = glorified audit
business recovery = glorified audit
insolvency = glorified audit
business reconstruction = glorified audit
company secretarial services = glorified audit
compliance = audit

You must have a very interesting definition of Audit. I forgot to post forensic (but im sure you would probably call that audit as well).

im sorry unless something is audit, its not. kinda a weird statement by me there but i dont know how else to say it any clearer.

you seem to have such a knowledge of every single area of accounting, and IB. You must have either worked everywhere, or be a fresh undergrad like me. you know like i didnt even bother to mention cost accounting, but im sure you will say that is audit as well. So basically your definition of audit is what? any job where you have to comply with regulation? I mean you should have just included tax as glorified audit as well.

So when a CEO of a company, hey lest use telstra as an example and their new NEXT G network, decides to reconstruct a business, thats glorified audit? Sorry, kinda don't agree, if that was the case consultants wouldnt have jobs.

lets have a look at what you would do in IB

if we are going to make everything as simplistic as you have then i would say this is what you do:

"Research investment opportunities, strcuture them, and sell them off" now sure you can go into heaps of different areas but essentially you are doing the same thing in different ways, given all the divisions. Whether your selling a deal, a fund or investment advice as a product. All you do in IB is research ideas and try to sell them.

Now I never said that wasnt interesting, but let me again re-emphasise, all you do is research, package and sell. Isn't that what everyone does? What makes you any better?

Heres another list:
reasons why not to do investment banking
- long hours (i wonder what they take to stay up so late)
- poor job security
- stress
- lack of social interaction
- they will probably try to force you into working overseas if you are any good
- you make all this money...when will you get time to spend it???
- you cant take your money with you when you die, and chances are if your in IB you want have any kids to give it to
- competition with your own workmates, who are disloyal,work against you, and would stab you in the back without thinking twice
- you will change as a person, for the worse

Then again im not judging i can see that some people like IBs
reasons why they would are
- money
- they want to be sucessful
- they enjoy the kill or the chase
- they have a genuine interest in the work they do
- they enjoy a challenge
I would consider working in IB because of these points

these are generalisation, and if they dont apply to you I concede that they dont. They do apply to me.

EDIT:
on another point, if you worked in accounting in audit id say it makes sense that you could go into areas in investment banking easily. It would depend on who you audited, if you had experiance in a particular area, that matched one of the research departments of an IB then id say you would fit in nicely. I agree with you that it is probably a bit far fetched to move from audit to IB as if it was nothing. I dont think anyone made the point that it was easy, all they said is that it is possible.

 

[turtleface]

You must have a very interesting definition of Audit. I forgot to post forensic (but im sure you would probably call that audit as well).

Forensic Accounting is often known as forensic auditing

Heres another list:
reasons why not to do investment banking
- long hours (i wonder what they take to stay up so late)
- poor job security
- stress
- lack of social interaction
- they will probably try to force you into working overseas if you are any good
- you make all this money...when will you get time to spend it???
- you cant take your money with you when you die, and chances are if your in IB you want have any kids to give it to
- competition with your own workmates, who are disloyal,work against you, and would stab you in the back without thinking twice
- you will change as a person, for the worse

unsubstantiated rumours around uni are that the Investment Banking analyst community is all jacked up on cocaine.

Supposidly its like:
8am-4am: work
4am-8am: partying
8am: work again

not a bad thing if you're wanting to emulate Paris Hilton

Isn't the general thought: audit to Corp Fin to IB?

I think so. I think most of the 2nd tier IBanks will consider accountants only if they are either from a Corporate Finance/Transactional Services/Financial Services audit background

On a related note, more proof of Accounting going to IBanking (but honestly, do we really need more? I think theres been more than enough so far):
http://www.kpmg.com.au/Default.aspx?TabID=214&KPMGArticleItemID=1576
(read last sentence)

As for your list...
tax = not audit
risk management = glorified audit
business recovery = glorified audit
insolvency = glorified audit
business reconstruction = glorified audit
company secretarial services = glorified audit
compliance = audit

:rofl: I agree! Actually the first thing I agree with you on. But then we all know Investment banking is just glorified Microsoft Excel number crunching.

I do have to say, I am seriously considering IBanking as a career now, it does seem to have some pros as well as cons

 

[ND]

- you will change as a person, for the worse

??

not a bad thing if you're wanting to emulate Paris Hilton

Paris Hilton does work?

 

[Conspirocy]

I dont want to bag out one of my own relatives. But my unlce was really a nice person, i remember he had a heaps active role in my life. When he started working for an IB he changed as a person, became superficial and pretty rude. Hardley see him that much anymore or speak to him, either because he cant be bothered speaking to the rest of his family, or he just doesnt have the time to.

I think working in an environment like an IB changes a person, ive only seen it second hand. They start to lose out on their own personality, and are moulded into the 'perfect employee' for an IB. He is nearly 40, has no children or the prospect of marriage, and is very successful. He is probably happy, but he isnt who he used to be.

 

[seremify007]

Am I the only one here who notices that despite csmg's big speech, he still hasn't revealed what it is that he's accomplished "succesfully" in his "been there done that" life... but rather, all he has done is put down what others feel are their own personal accomplishments?

For someone who's oh so wise you do make alot of assumptions that we're all grads in audit in Big4.

On a sidenote, not everyone here is trying to compete with each other- let alone you. If you think everyone out there aspires to be in IB, or even worse, like you, then you're even more deluded than the people you "believe" are brainwashed.

 

[seremify007]

My take on salary comparisons for graduates (most of these figures are pulled outta my *** but they're my best estimate)
Please correct me if you disagree

Base Pay:
Big 4 audit: 45K
IBD Corp Fin/M&A advisory: 70-90K

Hours:
Big 4 audit: 40-45hrs per week on average
IBD Corp Fin/M&A advisory: 80-120hrs per week on average

Bonuses:
Big 4 audit: none/some nominal amount of a few thousand
IBD Corp Fin/M&A advisory: 0-80K+ most likely about 20-40K

Grads taken each year:
Big 4 audit: ~1000
IBD Corp Fin/M&A advisory (top 4 - I'm guessing): ~30
(I guessed the no. of grads taken each year for the top 4 IBDs...pls correct me if I'm wrong)

Where'd you get the 1000 figure for Big4 audit? Considering my firm is the largest of the lot, I don't even think we take in more than a tenth of that in the entire graduate program per year (ie not audit specifically).

 

[ND]

I dont want to bag out one of my own relatives. But my unlce was really a nice person, i remember he had a heaps active role in my life. When he started working for an IB he changed as a person, became superficial and pretty rude. Hardley see him that much anymore or speak to him, either because he cant be bothered speaking to the rest of his family, or he just doesnt have the time to.

I think working in an environment like an IB changes a person, ive only seen it second hand. They start to lose out on their own personality, and are moulded into the 'perfect employee' for an IB. He is nearly 40, has no children or the prospect of marriage, and is very successful. He is probably happy, but he isnt who he used to be.

Sample size = 1?

 

[Conspirocy]

sample size is 1/100 which is 10% if you want to see what it takes to be an executive director at macquarie bank. but thats just playing with numbers

Also read the good weekend article from the weekend on Mac Bank

EDIT: here ill put some choice quotes for you from it

"A former Melbourne office staffer has no doubt the people who do best at Macquarie are those unhampered by outside commitments. "There were guys in the office who'd work a whole day, the go to the gym at 10 at night, then come back in to work the next day. Obviously there was a lot of coffee drinking on." Some ended up driving themselves into the ground. "Health was an issue for a lot of poeple" she says. "Because when you're working those long hours, you do get sick""

here is a good one

"Thirty-four of the 35 people who worked for Bates had no children. "My boss had no children," Bates adds. "My boss's boss had no children. And my boss's boss had no children. That was Alan Moss. It went all the way up the line." " -- Tony Bates headed private banking for five years and thrived in the entrepreneurial atmosphere.