All your questions about CHIROPRACTIC answered (3 Viewers)

[samjohnno91]

You don't need a lab coat for first semester. But you need one second semester for Organic Chemistry. And then you need one second year for anatomy.

cool, thanks for the info.

 

[BoREd^7]

Something seems out of place in those calculations. how long does it take to see each person? Even if it only took 30 mins per person you would be working for 65 per week? :/ Are you sure you have the correct information? (I'm almost certain your average GP does not earn that much either).

Average chiropractic consulation is 20min for new patient (inc. history taking, orthopeadic, neuro, palpatory, and chiro tests)

Average return patient consultation therefore after is 10 min

(my chiropractor sees 180+/week owns a merc, my physio sees 80/week and owns a holden, never asked my GP how many he sees)

Hope that helps.

What a joke.

Chiropracters are quacks. Period.

Then don't apply.

 

[BoREd^7]

was that 5000k per week ?
Could you please explain what the overheads are for a business like that?

To give you an idea usual overhead is calculated at 50%+, this is an overestimation for safety. Usually the larger the practice (especially multi-doc, multi-modality eg GP, Chiro, and massage therapist in one) show much lower overhead at about 30-40%.

These costs may seem expensive, but when compared to other modalities (dentistry, GP, physio) are on average equivalent to or lower.

Untitled Document


Virtually all primary healthcare modalities, that is optometry, dentistry, chiro, GP, physio all pay roughly the same when you are fresh out of uni. The major difference is how you practice after, how much business sense you have and how you are able to sell yourself.

I know chiros who make $400k+ and i know chiros who make $50k. Same with dentists, i know some that only make $75k

Its not what you do, its HOW you do it! (There are winners and wankers in each modality)

The ones that make more $$$, are the ones which are really good at what they do, business minded and most of all you have be a "people" person.


If you are considering a career in healthcare, go and talk to practitioners before you make the choice, they will be more than happy to talk to you and explain what they do. I talked to physios, osteopaths, chiroprators, radiologists, nuclear medicine, dentists and medical doctors before i made my choice.

 

[Planck]

Don't Let Chiropractors Fool You

*quack quack quack quack quaaaaackkkkk*

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Don't Let Chiropractors Fool You

*quack quack quack quack quaaaaackkkkk*

is there possibly a link to those scientologists as well?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

[extensorindicis]

A more appropriate title for this thread would have been "For those that didn't make the cut at any mid/high level health programs but still want to play doctor, become a chiro"

ditto what wooz said earlier, chiro is a pseudoscience. The treatments they provide have not been shown in clinical trials and respected medical journals to produce any clinical benefit whatso ever.

If you want more info on the quackery that is chiro here are some links:

Chirotalk: The Skeptical Chiropractic Discussion Forum - Home

Chirobase: Your Skeptical Guide to Chiropractic History, Theories, and Practices

example of the quackery of the chiro profession: Most chiros refer to themselves as Dr. So and so, without even completing a doctorate and pretend to be doctors like gp's etc

The future of chiro in the US at least is very uncertain, incomes for many chiros have fallen dramatically. This is because of a changing perception among patients about the fallacy that is chiro. Such marketing campaings were driven by doctors, specialists, and physios. Luckily this hasn't happened here but why would you want to spend 5 years studying heavy anatomy and science and end up in a profession that isn't thought of too highly among medical practisioners and patients? If you can't get into med, dent, optom or phyio don't pick chiro.

 

[extensorindicis]

Average chiropractic consulation is 20min for new patient (inc. history taking, orthopeadic, neuro, palpatory, and chiro tests)

Average return patient consultation therefore after is 10 min

(my chiropractor sees 180+/week owns a merc, my physio sees 80/week and owns a holden, never asked my GP how many he sees)

Hope that helps.



Then don't apply.

sorry to burst your bubble but chiros make no where near 300-400k.

Deal in facts and statistics and not what you're chiro said or what you heard a friend's chiro earns.

Here is data on the average earnings of the health professions:

http://www.ebc.com.au/product/product.asp?loc=4.24 make sure you multiply average income by net profit you'll get about a 100k

sure sounds sweet right but you'll need to own a practice, and with the hundreds of chiro students graduating each year from mac the pool is pretty saturated. And because you guys can't work in hospitals unlike physios, its much harder to open a clinic up and even more competitive to get patients through the door to drive that mercedes that you crave.

Sorry dude but the glory days of chiro are pretty much over. Nursing has way better career prospects and more respect than chiros.

 

[extensorindicis]

Don't become a chiropractor | All-Students Forum | Student Doctor Network

this thread pertains to whats happening in the US but if you read it, you can see how its already starting to happen here.

 

[:kaz.n:]

Chiro student here (just about finished my course)- Clearing up a few misconceptions:

Average new patient consultation is ATLEAST double the 20 minutes you quoted...It is very hard to do a throrough assessment of a patient in just 20 minutes. Sure you can assess their biomechanical function but in terms of screening for more serious pathology you really should need to leave more time for an initial consult.

Depending on how you practice (we have such diversity in chiropractic...from practitioners big on neuromusculoskeletal rehabilitation and neurology [fyi. what I am interested in] which would take atleast 15-20 minutes for a general consult and maybe even 40-60 mins for an initial, to practitioners who just 'crack ya back' which could take 30 SECONDS to 2 minutes [I personally find this much less effective but each to their own] and even practitioners who use very soft/low force techniques and do not rotate or torque the spine at all [generally for geriatric patients and those disliking spinal manipulation], this can take up to 30 minutes).

Such diversity in practice brings about diversity in remuneration, and I can tell you that most chiropractors will tell you they see more patients than they actually do, and people who do not actually look at the books in running a clinic will never know how much money goes in taxes n overheads! Look at an average of 90-140K a year realistically.

Furthermore, if you plan on working in the Sydney region, you can lessen that salary substantially as Sydney is majorly oversaturated. For the amount of time and effort and hard work you put into studying chiro, you really do not make that much money. Do not be fooled about how much money you make please refer to the previous post I made about earnings etc.

"Luckily this hasn't happened here but why would you want to spend 5 years studying heavy anatomy and science and end up in a profession that isn't thought of too highly among medical practisioners and patients? If you can't get into med, dent, optom or phyio don't pick chiro."

I strongly agree with this statement. If you want to do chiro you must know that it is a super challenging course (41 contact hours a week including clinic this year...average of 16 exams at the end of semester) and, when you graduate, you are not well respected by many people in the real world.

Thankfully, if you are truly passionate about making a change in a persons life, if you are open minded and open to the idea of collaborating with other health care professionals (please do not be dogmatic in your beleifs as this is what I beleive has caused the chiropractic profession to be so segregated historically speaking) and you are really ethical in your thoughts and meticulous & precise in your intervention whatever you choose to do, you will do well.

At the end of the day, there are so many anti-chiro websites out there and the general public seem to not respect chiropractors the same as they would a medical doctor, yet we still get a suprising number of patients seeking out our care. In essence, we are an industry driven by public demand.

Im really keen and open to chat to anyone about chiro related issues, and this is why I created this thread. I am an ex chiro skeptic (but am still super skeptical about many chiro techniques) so I can associate. I welcome these debates.

K.

 

[BoREd^7]

A more appropriate title for this thread would have been "For those that didn't make the cut at any mid/high level health programs but still want to play doctor, become a chiro"

And what about those that just want a different choice? Lay your bias aside and look at reality, you don't know much about chiro, so reframe from commenting on things you don't know

ditto what wooz said earlier, chiro is a pseudoscience. The treatments they provide have not been shown in clinical trials and respected medical journals to produce any clinical benefit whatso ever.

Only if you been living on mars for previous 20 years.
extensorindicis, are you serious?? So what you are basically saying is that spinal manipulation therapy, soft tissue therapy and the like of what chiros do is all pseudoscience right?

Reality check: Well what do physios do?? All of the above!!! Physio, chiro, osteo are all the same, they all treat patients manually and using their hands, and physiotherapeutic aids such as laser, ultrasound, TENS, etc

Physio = soft tissue therapy, rehabilitation, exercise programs, etc (and if physio wants to do spinal manipulation that is an extra year of study [atleast here in victoria])

Chiro= all of the above + spinal manipulation as standard , radiographic license to take their own xrays, nutritional education, doctors title, etc

So how about you look at the facts and maybe get a prescription to some journals? BMJ, JMPT, SJ, etc...

What makes it more funny, is that every picture in your signature can be used by a chiro student and no one would know the difference!!!! Same consulting rooms (even same plastic spine for explaining to patient, but I think chiro benches are more expensive and complex), you use same ortho tests to assess that knee, both have speciality training in sports & paediatrics, same xray interpretations, same diagnostic process, etc

example of the quackery of the chiro profession: Most chiros refer to themselves as Dr. So and so, without even completing a doctorate and pretend to be doctors like gp's etc.

FACT: Currently, in all states, except NSW, Chiropractors are legally allowed to use Doctor title. This also includes Osteopaths.
With the introduction of NATIONAL Health Act as of July 2010, ALL chiropractors will carry the Doctor title through out Australia (finally putting NSW in line with rest of country).


So again, stick to the facts, not useless bias

The future of chiro in the US at least is very uncertain, incomes for many chiros have fallen dramatically. This is because of a changing perception among patients about the fallacy that is chiro.

You told me to use facts, so this rule just doesn't apply to your statement, huh?? All I see is bias opinion (its "usually the person that knows the least, is the loudest sceptic")

Find me ANY profession which is not suffering in the US under the current economic downturn?

As for changing perceptions? You ever been to the US? I have, regularly.
FACT: Go to an MD (in US or Canada) with unspecific acute or chronic back pain, neck pain and see where they refer you… its usually to a DC (Doctor of Chiropractic) or a DO (Doctor of Osteopathy, which are usually a rarity these days), not a physio.

 

[BoREd^7]

sorry to burst your bubble but chiros make no where near 300-400k.

Deal in facts and statistics and not what you're chiro said or what you heard a friend's chiro earns.

Here is data on the average earnings of the health professions:

http://www.ebc.com.au/product/product.asp?loc=4.24 make sure you multiply average income by net profit you'll get about a 100k

Thank you for bringing up MAUS/EBC… now if you look at their stats at the higher end certainly do. Even the patient quota per week says 188 just like what I said.

And as for listening to what people say, I think I said to always be cautious.

MAUS just reiterates my point that all physios, chiros earn on average roughly the SAME!

What I quoted is correct for the chiro and physio. I work with these people on daily basis, I refer patients to both of them, and most of all I have seen the books for both which I am not going to publicly state their figures but their choice of cars reflects it.

Like I said in another post, there are physios and chiros who make large sums of money, but they usually are very good, have a good network referral system, and must also be good at business side (the tax man does not discriminate).

In the end, remember healthcare is a business like all others! Physio, Osteo, Chiro, GP, Dentist, etc We may get into it to help people but after you get your title (what ever it maybe) you have to face the facts! It’s a business.
Number of patients X $$ Consulting Fee = Earnings

sure sounds sweet right but you'll need to own a practice, and with the hundreds of chiro students graduating each year from mac the pool is pretty saturated. And because you guys can't work in hospitals unlike physios, its much harder to open a clinic up and even more competitive to get patients through the door to drive that mercedes that you crave.

I do not know in regard to NSW, but I assume it may be same picture as here in Victoria, but here are the FACTS!

Melbourne:
Physio: 3 university programs (La Trobe, Melb Uni, and now also Monash) pushing out 100+ students EACH per year
Chiro: only 1 university (just like in NSW) RMIT Uni, graduates 60 students

Fact: most physios work privately, only minority work in hospitals. Hospital work also pays less.

Saturated? I think you better take a look at reality, if anything physio is a saturated market, but no one has a problem finding work.

Sorry dude but the glory days of chiro are pretty much over. Nursing has way better career prospects and more respect than chiros.

Nursing is completely different occupation. So please stop giving such novice opinions to people who are looking to get advice as what to do with their future.

(Remember the forum is to help students choose a direction, not air your bias views)

Nursing is a great career which can lead you into a multitude of directions, however to compare nursing and chiro together is ridiculous they are simply vastly different.

As for glory days? What are you a fortune teller? Then please put your powers to better use and tell me the lottery numbers in advance.
All I see is every healthcare modality going up and up, especially with the aging population and the over exerted hospital system. No wonder there is a bigger push now for research conducted as to the viability of preventative care (inc chiro, physio, etc). Look at Canada, their Medicare system now includes Chiropractors and Physios.

 

[BoREd^7]

Chiro student here (just about finished my course)- Clearing up a few misconceptions:

Average new patient consultation is ATLEAST double the 20 minutes you quoted...It is very hard to do a throrough assessment of a patient in just 20 minutes. Sure you can assess their biomechanical function but in terms of screening for more serious pathology you really should need to leave more time for an initial consult.

Congratulations on almost finishing, if your in 5th year and considering this late stage of year you should be finishing your patient quota, and you should no longer require 40min to assess new patient like you would have when you were starting out (I know there are some circumstances where require more time).

Depending on how you practice (we have such diversity in chiropractic...from practitioners big on neuromusculoskeletal rehabilitation and neurology [fyi. what I am interested in] which would take atleast 15-20 minutes for a general consult and maybe even 40-60 mins for an initial, to practitioners who just 'crack ya back' which could take 30 SECONDS to 2 minutes [I personally find this much less effective but each to their own] and even practitioners who use very soft/low force techniques and do not rotate or torque the spine at all [generally for geriatric patients and those disliking spinal manipulation], this can take up to 30 minutes).

Its great if you want to incorporate neuromuscular and functional neurology into your practice, it is probably the best and most effective field in my opinion. If that is the case I take it you know of (or atleast attended seminars by) Dr Michael Hall and Prof Allen Terrett who are leaders in the field. If not, do so.

But I still stand as to what I said. In practice, usually practitioners with experience are consulting 20min on initial consultation. Sure, if you want to incorporate advanced neurological examination (your distaxias, dystopias, proprioception, etc) it might take longer depending on conditions exhibited, however you will not be doing this for every patient through the door. Amazingly 98% of practice if pretty straight forward.

Such diversity in practice brings about diversity in remuneration, and I can tell you that most chiropractors will tell you they see more patients than they actually do, and people who do not actually look at the books in running a clinic will never know how much money goes in taxes n overheads! Look at an average of 90-140K a year realistically.

90-140k is quite a comfortable salary, considering the Australian average wage is $38k.
As I have said before, “I know chiros who make $400k+ and i know chiros who make $50k. Same with dentists, i know some that only make $75k”

I have never said all chiros make $400k, I just said it is possible and minority that work their balls off do.

There is no free ride in this world. There is NO profession where you are guaranteed to earn $200k+ where you will not have to work your balls off to get it!

Even when the average Investment Banker starting wage is $89k for first year (prior to financial downturn, unaware what Macquarie Bank, PBS, etc pay now a days), people think “wow”, but they do not understand that this involves them working 70hour per week (usually even sometimes sleeping in the office), especially when a project deadline is coming up. Also, to get to that stage you would have to have done a Law degree AND a Masters in Law, accounting, Finance, or an MBA. That’s 7yrs of uni minimum.

People look at Anesthesiologists starting wage of $150k+ and think that’s too much for “just sticking needle of morphine down someone’s vein”, but factor in that this involves 10yrs+ to get to that stage, doing 60-70 hr weeks in intern years for measly $40k a year, sucking up to other anesthetists to recommend you for specialty training, then actually busting your balls for years doing the specialist training, and when you finally get there your jaw drops when you get your quote for indemnity insurance (more then most people’s cars are worth) so you have to work full time just to be able to pay that off.

You want to get paid, you got to work hard!
So relatively speaking a chiro having done 5yrs of uni, earning $100k and paying indemnity of only what? $2-3k a year I consider a good deal.

I strongly agree with this statement. If you want to do chiro you must know that it is a super challenging course (41 contact hours a week including clinic this year...average of 16 exams at the end of semester) and, when you graduate, you are not well respected by many people in the real world.

No doubt, anyone considering doing chiro, it is a hard course, and it is 5yrs of your life, but in relative terms as I mentioned before, it is a good outcome.

Respect for chiros is low compared to physio here in Australia, because medical students are taught what physios do, but never explained as to what chiros do. Can you blame them? Why would they refer to you if they don’t know what they do and all they have ever heard are chiro jokes and misconceptions (eg the physio that just commented earlier!)

There are qwackes/idiots in every profession, I would not refer a patient to just any given chiro without knowing what they do and how, as would I not refer to just any given physio. That is why you build up a network and refer to the ones that get results, not the ones that just have a title!
Want respect? show others you deserve it! When your good, no one cares what your title is!

Im really keen and open to chat to anyone about chiro related issues, and this is why I created this thread. I am an ex chiro skeptic (but am still super skeptical about many chiro techniques) so I can associate. I welcome these debates.

And this is fair enough, i have never said anything about your opinion, and would not contradict it in any way, unlike others who commented and are really not aware of what chiropractors do.

I hold a very non-bias view as to all health care professional because I network with all of them including physios, chiros, osteos, medical radiations, orthopedic surgeons, etc. I know what each one does. That is why I try to provide facts to anyone who wants to hear it.

As for patients being skeptical, well everyone is because of old stigma and bad jokes as you hear from the physio... do people really know what chiros do? Do they really care? The answer, NO. People don’t care what you call yourself, they just want to get pain-free. Start practicing, get results and those very people refer others to you.

As for your own skepticism, welcome to your final year of uni, everyone becomes skeptical and wonders whether spending so long in uni was worth it. And considering in every healthcare profession everyone tries to screw over newly grads by offering them very little retainer, and dismal patient base just so they can line their own pockets... everyone goes through it, be it physio, chiro, osteo, podiatrist, etc. But get through it, home your neurology skills and set yourself apart, and word spreads, and patients start coming.

Remember, university taught you the basics and how not to kill someone, spot any red flags, and now your true learning begins to build on top of that.

Chiro/physio are professions where your results dictate how much you earn!

To be exact all medicine is like this, the unfortunate part is that there are too few doctors these days and too many “inferior” kind (softer word I can use) are getting the jobs they should not have.

but am still super sceptical about many chiro techniques

Good that means you can think for yourself. Avoid NET and other wank ones (that aren’t even taught at university level for a reason), practice more evidence based and you should be fine.

I welcome these debates.

I welcome any debate so long as it is constructive and not involve imprudent and unfounded comments like those of the previously commenting physio when he states that “nothing in chiropractic is scientific”. This just proves he/she knows nothing of other healthcare modalities, especially when physios utilise all the same treatment options, and therapeutic aids as chiropractors.
I comment on physio/chiro/osteo/med rad/medicine because I actually take the time to know what options I can provide for a patients, not just from unfounded old scepticism.

 

[extensorindicis]

Kaz n: great post and congrats for graduating thanks for clearing up a few misconceptions.

Bored guy: WOW! Just wow! Sorry but I have better things to do than reply to all your extended and often unfounded criticisms. Also I fear if I had to quote and reply to each one that BOS forum's servers will implode. But, certainly your username has been served well, perhaps look into changing it to bored^infinity, because I fear your life is very very very boring. You've written a mini-phd thesis about how chiro and physio are similar.

Firstly, may I ask are you a GP? You seem to do alot of referring, that is why I ask.

I will try to briefly critique your long criticism.

Re 1: "
Reality check: Well what do physios do?? All of the above!!! Physio, chiro, osteo are all the same, they all treat patients manually and using their hands, and physiotherapeutic aids such as laser, ultrasound, TENS, etc

Physio = soft tissue therapy, rehabilitation, exercise programs, etc (and if physio wants to do spinal manipulation that is an extra year of study [atleast here in victoria])

Chiro= all of the above + spinal manipulation as standard , radiographic license to take their own xrays, nutritional education, doctors title, etc"

Physio, chiro and osteo ARE NOT THE SAME, a similarity is that they use their hands, but the treatment modalities are different. Chiro is based on the notion that "Chiropractors believe that all of a patient's problems can be traced back to the spine. This includes problems involving the endocrine and respiratory systems as well as obvious problems in the back and in the joints. Chiropractics believe that if the spine is fixed, the other ailments will heal as well - this includes asthma, cancer, heart burn, acne etc etc THIS IS WHY ITS A PSEUDOSCIENCE NON OF THESE HAVE BEEN MEDICALLY PROVEN!.

Chiro's are not trained in soft tissue therapy, rehab or exercise prog, they mainly do and are taught spinal man. Yes and with that radiographic license you xray every new patient coming in LOL. Chiro's have fiven themselves doctors titles, its often seen by real medical doctors, dentists, physios etc the non-alternative health modalities as quite frivolous and hilarious for chiro's to be calling themselves doctors.. Because your training is no where near those professions.

Chiro's arn't employed in hospitals because it isn't a medical/or allied health profession but rather alternative health discipline like reflexology, iridology, homeopathy, acupuncture etc so no the picture of physio's in the ICU doesn apply to chiro's nor does the sports field picture.

For prospective students: Health Tips: Difference Between Physiotherapists And Chiropractors
What’s the difference between Osteopathy, Physiotherapy and Chiropractic? - Osteopathy, sport injury and healthcare in Uxbridge
What Is The Difference Between A Chiropractor And A Physiotherapist?

to keep Mr Bored happy a journal article not that you provided one despite preaching their importanceNEJM -- A Comparison of Physical Therapy, Chiropractic Manipulation, and Provision of an Educational Booklet for the Treatment of Patients with Low Back Pain

I have provided links to various discussions in forums regarding the decline of chiro in the US. So how about you do the same. This is not america, nevertheless the MD's arn't refering to chiro's anymore in the US its to physio's over their Docs of PT which are much harder to get into gpa of min3.6/4 to get in where as chiro schools are easy to get into similiar to Aust requirements.



RE:2

MAUS does not reiterate the exaggerated incomes you proposed. Physio is not saturated at the moment and wont be, because

a) graduates get guaranteed places like the doctors at hospitals and can remain there if they wish.
b) can open up private practice relatively easily and profitably with minimal to moderate competition.
c) many physio's are retiring
d) high number of female physio's who have families and work part time for a while....

Chiro's must work in private practice why do you think there are only 2 schools besides the fact that its a psydosciences? Do you think if the US market where chiro was once accepted is saturated do you think the aus market will survive? The increase in physio schools is because demand for our skills are outstripping supply.

LOL i'm not a fortune teller, I have provided links for numerous forum links and discussions some by disgruntled chiro's themselves professing the dilemma they face. Unlike your anecdotal dribble.

Lastly, to prospective physio/chiro students, physio and chiro are distinctly different professions, with different modalities, a chiro cannot perform the same treatment that a physio can perform. Different philosophies one based on pure belief and one that has been proven clinically and medically for centuries. Hence different career and financial prospects. Do not choose Chiro if you cannot get into Physio they are very different.

 

[catandmouse]

Extensoridicis: enemy of the chiropractic profession lol.
I have a different view of chiropractic. I myself am a 4th year physio at CSU while my brother is a 3rd year chiro at MQ so I have been exposed to what you call 'pseudoscience' for a while. We often discuss our education differences and similarities. Despite your foreign sources, no visceral adjustments are taught to chiropractic students by universities in NSW. Chiropractors are trained extremely well in soft tissue therapies and do study rehab. Physio students like us are trained much more extensively in rehab I believe. We also are trained to work in hospitals so we learn our Cardiopulmonary stuff ect. Where does your thoughts towards chiropractic come from? And what are your thoughts on doing post grad for manip physiotherapy? Also chiropractic is allied health, hence the equal right for claiming as us through medicare and they are also eligible for allied health scholarships Allied Health Clinical Placement Scholarship Scheme

 

[BoREd^7]

Bored guy: WOW! Just wow! Sorry but I have better things to do than reply to all your extended and often unfounded criticisms.
But yet, as if by certain miracle, you just can’t help yourself
I am sorry, I will try be brief this time. I am only trying to provide information to people that are looking into different careers, and I happen to come across this.

Firstly, may I ask are you a GP? You seem to do alot of referring, that is why I ask.
Is that a stab at GP’s? What if I said I were an orthopaedic resident? Do I not refer patients for pre/post rehab? Or maybe Sports physician, I still refer. Or what if I am a janitor at a high school or a physio just like you (minus the bias)? I don’t think I need to flash my name or credentials to get a point across (especially on an internet forum last thing I need is this to be popping under my name on google).
As for referral... heres a new concept for you, MULTIDISCIPLINARY management of patients! Usually entails referrals [or do you need a link to medical dictionary with that?]

Chiro is based on the notion that "Chiropractors believe that all of a patient's problems can be traced back to the spine. - this includes asthma, cancer, heart burn, acne etc etc
As far as I am aware this is just remnants of old thinking from ancient days of conceptualisation. At one point good old medicine was consisted of nothing more than useless potions and surgeons were considered barbarians hence why they were not allowed to use the doctors title (as respect for those founding fathers that is why a doctor reverts back to Mr/Mrs after specialising as a surgeon [does not apply in US]).
What, now you going to say medicine is still the same witchcraft it used to be? Adjust your clock now.

No chiro I know believes in the above stated, as far as I know no chiropractic program here in Australia teaches such crap, and if they do, then they simply should be avoided at all cost.

The RMIT, Parker, CMCC graduates I have met never use such retardation, as all revert to evidence-based treatment plans backed by literature to substantiate their claims.
(Perhaps :kaz.n: can you clear up if Macquarie teaches this as core principle?)

Chiro's are not trained in soft tissue therapy, rehab or exercise prog, they mainly do and are taught spinal man.
No, you are wrong again! Chiropractors are taught soft tissue, rehabilitation, and exercise programs. All chiropractors graduating from RMIT University in Melbourne undergo all above mentioned. In fact their soft tissue is taught by qualified massage therapists. And they must demonstrate full competency in all areas prior to graduation and registration.

In addition all the same physical therapeutic aids: including Ultrasound, Laser, TENS, Interferential, etc

Again, :kaz.n: would have to clear up if Macquarie uni is the same.

Again, this just proves you know profoundly little about what Chiropractors do, and it was my intention to correct that!

Chiro's have fiven themselves doctors titles, its often seen by real medical doctors, dentists, physios etc the non-alternative health modalities as quite frivolous and hilarious for chiro's to be calling themselves doctors.. Because your training is no where near those professions.
Ok, what the hell does “fiven” mean?

Do you honestly think, considering how long chiropractic has been around it would be allowed to continue if it was “pseudoscience”?

Do you honestly think that a healthcare modality, in this day and age, which is a registered and regulated by government bodies would be allowed to exist if it was “pseudoscience”, if it was unproven, “frivolous”, if it posed dangerous hazard to public? If most of all it did not yield results?

Seriously? What do you think the medical doctors, that make up those government registration bodies, advisory committees and health regulatory bodies are that F***ing stupid? F***ing blind? For all these years? All these numerous laws and health acts, gone and present? And that now you, a graduating physio is so much more wiser then all of them, put together?

Or maybe, and here me out on this... you might just be wrong?

No, how can that be right? we must all be wrong! All hail our exuberant leader; we should just scrap all medical research from now on [who knows, maybe save a billion or 10] and just solicit to your advice ONLY!

Your ignorance is Bliss!

Chiro's arn't employed in hospitals because it isn't a medical/or allied health profession but rather alternative health discipline like reflexology, iridology, homeopathy, acupuncture etc so no the picture of physio's in the ICU doesn apply to chiro's nor does the sports field picture.
1. Technically, chiropractic is defined under “complementary medicine”. And note acupuncture is now actually regarded as mainstream in medicine these days, even though it too, is part of CAMs (Complementary and Alternative Medicines).
2. No, chiropractors are not in Intensive Care Unit (ICU) as that usually means patients are critical status. Don’t see any optometrists in there either, are they not allowed Doctor title either? However, for the record; chiropractors (minor percentage) do perform manipulation under anaesthesia, usually during orthopaedic surgery, in hospitals OR’s. [Shock, Mr know-it-all didn’t know that either]
3. Again, Chiropractors are actually hired by AFL teams, Rugby league teams, NBL, Netball and even the Aust. Ballet company. Not to mention the hundreds of teams in American Football (NFL). As well as being regular on PGA tours since 80’s (usually I do not provide names but look up Dale Richardson, a chiro who used to work for PGA tour, now only caters for highend athletes privately). Just because you, a great master don’t know of any, don’t mean its not true.
So YES, there are chiros are on the sports fields, they are just not doing the pre/post-training rub downs that physio/message therapist does because they are usually involved in patient maintenance and injury prevention. There is no point providing manipulation when brutal forces are excreted on the field, usually provided post game/trauma.

MAUS does not reiterate the exaggerated incomes you proposed.
Your illiterate. I never said “all” chiros make that much!

But here are some more links I pulled up for Australian chiro/physio wages.
Chiro:
http://getaccess.westone.wa.gov.au/careers/profiles/data/OCC84.asp

http://www.smh.com.au/news/mentor/it-pays-to-be-pushy-and-manipulative/2006/02/10/1139542389223.html?page=2

http://www.myfuture.edu.au/services/default.asp?FunctionID=5050&ASCO=238711A


Physio: http://getaccess.westone.wa.gov.au/careers/profiles/data/OCC36.asp
http://www.myfuture.edu.au/services/default.asp?FunctionID=5050&ASCO=238511A


Physio is not saturated at the moment and wont be, because
a) graduates get guaranteed places like the doctors at hospitals and can remain there if they wish.
b) can open up private practice relatively easily and profitably with minimal to moderate competition.
c) many physio's are retiring
d) high number of female physio's who have families and work part time for a while....


Chiro is not saturated at the moment and wont be, because
a) all graduates find work [shock]. Amazes me how much you reiterate point about hospital positions when only minority physios work in them, they get paid less than private prac, and no one likes it all while they look for another job [am I wrong? Be honest]
b) can open up private practice relatively easily and profitably with minimal to moderate competition.
c) many chiro's are retiring
d) high number of female chiro's who have families and work part time for a while....



I have provided links for numerous forum links and discussions some by disgruntled chiro's themselves professing the dilemma they face. Unlike your anecdotal dribble.
Internet is always full of people ready to bitch at drop of a hat. You can probably find people bitching about any career path (inc. physio), hence why I tried to be realistic and un-bias (unlike some)

As they are allowed to express their views, so am I allowed to back a profession that gets a lot of undue flack. As you expressed your opinion, I did mine. Don’t go crying foul because it does not match your point of view.

You appear to have little clue what a chiro does and you’ve proved that so well. It appears only facts you derive are from some minor reading from American website, have you been to a chiro? Ever talked to one? Then how can you presume to be an expert and call everything I say “dribble”?

Since we are getting personal, how do I label your comments? Biased, unfounded, load of crap. Sounds about right!?!


So mate maybe you should crawl out of your cacoon and take a sniff of the wide world for once... not everything is as it seems and just because you did a physio degree does not make you an expert in chiropractic or medicine.

Stick to what you know about physio, because you blatantly do not know what chiropractors do!

 

[Kwayera]

Okay. You say chiropractic is not a psuedoscience? Give me proof for the existence of chiropractic subluxations (as distinct from medical subluxations, according to WHO), the entire basis of chiropractic.

Go on.

EDIT: I further my comment by stating that except for minor effects in relieving lower back pain, except as a placebo chiropractic has not been shown to be effective for any medical condition. (Ernst, E. 2008. "Chiropractic: a critical evaluation". J Pain Symptom Manage 35 (5): 544–62)

 

[BoREd^7]

For prospective students: Health Tips: Difference Between Physiotherapists And Chiropractors
=Looks like crap [no comment, didn’t even bother reading it], you can find many more stupid shit on the net.

What’s the difference between Osteopathy, Physiotherapy and Chiropractic? - Osteopathy, sport injury and healthcare in Uxbridge
=wow, no wonder you have this point of view

What Is The Difference Between A Chiropractor And A Physiotherapist?
= actually under physio when it says “specific injury and reducing a patient's pain while increasing his function” is how all chiropractors I have met describe whats they do.
Plus for some reason its only mentioned under physio that phystherapeutic aids are used.
I take it this is where your knowledge of chiropractic comes from...


to keep Mr Bored happy a journal article not that you provided one despite preaching their importanceNEJM -- A Comparison of Physical Therapy, Chiropractic Manipulation, and Provision of an Educational Booklet for the Treatment of Patients with Low Back Pain
=Any chance you actually read the article?

Quick glance:

1. This study is pretty useless as No Soft Tissue therapy was allowed, only exercise programs and manipulation was permitted.

Unless your in first year of physio and never examined a patient, you should know that soft tissue injury is usually the primary cause of back pain, and yields best results when treated. Exercise programs seem to have been used in Acute stage [don’t know what idiot would prescribe that to an inflamed area of only 7 days duration, unless they wanted have them back in their office next day, very least wait till sub-acute stages]

2. In case you have not noticed, both chiro and physio use same McKenzie protocol for exercise program… maybe this gives you a clue that chiros are trained in rehab?? Or does this suddenly become “dribble” now that it proves your full of sh*t?

3. To anyone unfamiliar to medicine, note that studies proving and disproving any modality or treatment come and go regularly, thou the overall trend suggests that both chiro/physio help for low back pain and no one can place one significantly better than the other.

This study Conclusion: For patients with low back pain, the McKenzie method of physical therapy and chiropractic manipulation had similar effects and costs

Wow. Astonishing? [shock] Chiro and Physio are just as effective? Although if you look closely to every graph, chiro patients exhibited mildly lower pain ratings in both outcome measures, Bothersomeness and Roland index.




So what is it that you were trying to prove?

I can flood you with articles preaching benefits of either physiotherapy or chiropractic. Unlike you I never said chiro [or physio for that fact] was “unproven” and “frivolous”, which you just help disprove on your own.

I always stated both have a role in healthcare.

If chiro is frivolous, you just help to undermine physio in suggesting they are equally as “frivolous” [maybe marginally more]

Anything else there Wonderbread?

 

[Kwayera]

I always stated both have a role in healthcare.

Chiro has about as much role in healthcare as any other placebo does.

 

[BoREd^7]

Okay. You say chiropractic is not a psuedoscience? Give me proof for the existence of chiropractic subluxations (as distinct from medical subluxations, according to WHO), the entire basis of chiropractic.

I was going to say, i'll leave this to the chiros to answer, BUT quick search showed wonders:

Am I going to shut you up if i use your very own mentioned WHO (World Health Organization)???

Officially, the WHO definition of the chiropractic vertebral subluxation is: "A lesion or dysfunction in a joint or motion segment in which alignment, movement integrity and/or physiological function are altered, although contact between joint surfaces remains intact. It is essentially a functional entity, which may influence biomechanical and neural integrity."
when refered to in medical definition or in legal court they refer to it as Biomechanical Joint Dysfunction (BMJD)


If WHO is good enough to define medical sublux for you, than its good enough for chiro one


and if you say thats not enough, then mate, you can discover google while you try to convince yourself! So don't ask me!

 

[Kwayera]

I was going to say, i'll leave this to the chiros to answer, BUT quick search showed wonders:

Am I going to shut you up if i use your very own mentioned WHO (World Health Organization)???

Officially, the WHO definition of the chiropractic vertebral subluxation is: "A lesion or dysfunction in a joint or motion segment in which alignment, movement integrity and/or physiological function are altered, although contact between joint surfaces remains intact. It is essentially a functional entity, which may influence biomechanical and neural integrity."
when refered to in medical definition or in legal court they refer to it as Biomechanical Joint Dysfunction (BMJD)


If WHO is good enough to define medical sublux for you, than its good enough for chiro one


and if you say thats not enough, then mate, you can discover google while you try to convince yourself! So don't ask me!

A definition doesn't mean it exists (or indeed that even if it does, it actually causes diseases). I could define a unicorn for you - doesn't mean it exists.

Try again.

EDIT: Or, more appropriate to the context, I could define the "chakras" used in acupuncture for you (an equally pseudoscientific "treatment" based on the placebo effect). Doesn't mean they exist.