Anyone into Amway? (2 Viewers)

[desmond.thai]

No, but mum and her partner has researched multi-level marketing and have found that Amway/Network 21 combo to be head and shoulders above the rest.

Don't take my word for it, research it through the appropriate channels rather than from half-informed people.

 

[Dr_Doom]

Well because most people already know about it, it is harder to recruit people. I personally think it's a waste of time. There are plenty of online ones that don't require you do input much money and possible get "big" returns.

One popular one is PTSU

 

[LeftrightOut]

Ridiculous, What a ridiculous statement.

You will not become financially free eating at that restaurant either.

Keep shopping at Woolies and Coles and in 5 years, lets see how financially free you are.

Yeah yeah JOB is a 4 letter word, JOB stands for Just Over Broke, if you are not going the Amway you are not going anywhere, If you're not core you're a loser, there is only the Amway to success. I've heard it all before, i've studied it at uni, i've brought many people out of it, nothing you or anyother ambot can say is new trust me. Quixtar was supposed to be the big rebirth of Amway that fizzled. And before you go jumping around saying it's the individual systems not Amway that is the problem all the systems have the blessing of Amway head office and it's the only way that Amway the legal entity gets away with not being labelled a pyramid.

Your statement gave nothing to deny the validity of mine. You then compare paying for a service with employment, tell me how many workplaces want you to pay them for the privilige of working for them? How many people make a profit at amway? you really think you "own your business" with an amway distributorship? Of course you are all positive you won't accept any negative opinion no matter how true it is. I can show you court documents and direct quotes from high level amway reps about the true money making side of the plan, but you won't listen, I don't expect you to because as an ambot you are predictable, I just hope others will read more about it before jumping and save themselves the embarrasment and grief.

 

[iambored]

Don't take my word for it, research it through the appropriate channels rather than from half-informed people.

What do you consider as appropriate channels?

 

[LeftrightOut]

What do you consider as appropriate channels?

People already in Amway obviously. Or those with a vested interest in you joining :rofl:

Anyone who seriously researches things will find plenty of court documents where Amway has to admit what a shambles it really is. On top of that anyone who examines the business proposal will work out the numbers that upline gives are simply not true, even company tax documents show the payouts are nowhere near the amount most claim, even if you account for those who are no longer active. Those in Amway never find out because their upline tells them the courts and all those who speak negatively are "losers" who are just over broke and are trying to steal the dream from all loyal amway followers and that they should keep working their "business" and go direct by pushing their PV above the threshold even if it does not make financial sense. It is actually quite funny to see some of them try to argue with logic but sad at the same time.

Yes people do make money off amway, but not the way that is being presented here.

 

[kow_dude]

Assuming Amway is a scam, then why do people still be part of it?

Wouldn't people want to leave Amway if it really was a waste of time? If that was the case, one by one people would quit and there would be no line of organization. Then why is Amway still in existence for 45 years?

 

[LeftrightOut]

Assuming Amway is a scam, then why do people still be part of it?

Wouldn't people want to leave Amway if it really was a waste of time? If that was the case, one by one people would quit and there would be no line of organization. Then why is Amway still in existence for 45 years?

GREED - Same reason gambling is such a big past time for many. They get sold on 10-15 hours a week for 2 years and be retired, build your own business for $150 buying from yourself, even an idiot can do it, and most people who do it unfortunately are. They see all the upline "faking it before making it" and think it's real and that they are swimming in cash so most believe they can too, and hey if they make a loss can claim it on tax right? it's the same reason people jump into emu farms and free flight homes and timeshares, they don't know any better, they get sold on promises and have no idea on how to properly analyse a situation taking a salespersons word for it.

Also if you examine the motivational side of things you will notice similarities with other groups.

They have a high turnover of members and there's a sucker born every minute. Like I said you can make money in Amway but not the way they try to tell you. You won't get rich buying for/from yourself or selling retail or by getting a cut of sales from your downline, the way you make money is off the tapes and meetings and there's a reason you have to have a high PV and downline before you get a piece (They need to know you can scam enough money before they tell you more of the inside dealings).

 

[desmond.thai]

Dear LeftRightOut,

I don't know what the hell you studied at uni, but it sure wasn't any kind of marketing that's for sure. Amway like any other business venture you take on requires certain skills.

The better you become at these skills determines the amount of success you can hope to obtain.

Direct marketing requires good work ethics, people skills, knowledge of product and a "never say die" attitude, and that is just a scratch on the surface.

Too many people get into this with the idea that without giving it their best effort, they will somehow rise to the top. That does not work in ANY walk of life, why should it here? and seeing how this is only a part time venture for most people, is it any wonder that 95% of them fall by the wayside. As far as it being a pyramid, it is structured that way by some business concepts but it is not a true or illegal pyramid simply because it does have a product line and any Independant Business Owner (IBO) can rise to the top.

As for you trying to bring people out of it, you might be better served trying to learn what makes the 5% of the people who try this successful and helping the people you know instead of standing in the way of what might be a very successful life for them. After all, you just might be taking a future Crown Ambassador out of a dream life.

We all start at the bottom of something don't we?

How much did you get paid for going to uni?

 

[desmond.thai]

What do you consider as appropriate channels?

Appropriate channels are:

Amway online - www.a2k.com.au
or
Continuing Education Program (CEP), Network 21 Global - N21Global

 

[Dr_Doom]

http://www.a2k.com.au/servlet/a2k?page=productDetail&vsNumber=2250&categoryId=50205

^^ WHAT A RIP!

 

[desmond.thai]

http://www.a2k.com.au/servlet/a2k?page=productDetail&vsNumber=2250&categoryId=50205

^^ WHAT A RIP!

Its concentrated, and lasts longer than other products...

More value for money.

Also don't just look at dishwashing products.

 

[LeftrightOut]

Dear LeftRightOut,

I don't know what the hell you studied at uni, but it sure wasn't any kind of marketing that's for sure. Amway like any other business venture you take on requires certain skills.

The better you become at these skills determines the amount of success you can hope to obtain.

Direct marketing requires good work ethics, people skills, knowledge of product and a "never say die" attitude, and that is just a scratch on the surface.

Too many people get into this with the idea that without giving it their best effort, they will somehow rise to the top. That does not work in ANY walk of life, why should it here? and seeing how this is only a part time venture for most people, is it any wonder that 95% of them fall by the wayside. As far as it being a pyramid, it is structured that way by some business concepts but it is not a true or illegal pyramid simply because it does have a product line and any Independant Business Owner (IBO) can rise to the top.

As for you trying to bring people out of it, you might be better served trying to learn what makes the 5% of the people who try this successful and helping the people you know instead of standing in the way of what might be a very successful life for them. After all, you just might be taking a future Crown Ambassador out of a dream life.

We all start at the bottom of something don't we?

How much did you get paid for going to uni?

:rofl:
Ladies and gentlemen I give you...AMWAY DISTRIBUTOR LOGIC!
:rofl:

You know why it's not classed as a pyramid? product line has nothing to do with it, go look up the legal definition of a pyramid scheme. The reason it is not legally classed as a pyramid is due to a little followed rule that you probably know nothing about.

Anyway, I think everyone should just go re-read your post and see just how illogical and silly it sounds. The promise of amways is 10-15 hours a week for 2 years will set you financially free, try showing the plan saying you spend 30 hours a week not including transport on meetings and STP all over the place and still not be making a true profit.

as for linking to a2k for the honest truth oh please, i'll go through my archives and get some court documents for you, that IS unbiased.

 

[LeftrightOut]

I don't have to tell my friends and convince them to use the more expensive restaurant because they give "concentrated" meals where the twice as expensive meal is actually twice as much as they would get in othr restaurants.

Its concentrated, and lasts longer than other products...

More value for money.

Also don't just look at dishwashing products.

:rofl: you want me to go predicting more silly amwayism that you will be spouting in the future? It's ok it's not your fault, you don't understand what is happening because you still "believe" :rofl:

 

[blue_chameleon]

Hows studying for the HSC going Desmond?
What subjects are you doing?
Any aspirations after finishing Year 12?

No, but seriously...

 

[Dr_Doom]

Why? Dishwashing products are the most expensive..

 

[LeftrightOut]

Not much happening in class so here are some more verbose answers.

I don't know what the hell you studied at uni, but it sure wasn't any kind of marketing that's for sure. Amway like any other business venture you take on requires certain skills.

I don't know what uni you studied at but the one I studied at happened to allow me to examine MLM as a distribution and marketing system, perhaps my uni is just more flexible in what they allow one to study. The skills required in Amway are not business skills, they are deception and denial skills.

The better you become at these skills determines the amount of success you can hope to obtain.

I was being shown the plan when you were still in Primary School, I know the real deal. The plan as it is shown resembles nothing of the reality of the business. Start STP with honesty and I will stop arguing amway is ripping people off.

Direct marketing requires good work ethics, people skills, knowledge of product and a "never say die" attitude, and that is just a scratch on the surface.

You just described every job or business ever created. But Amway is supposed to be "different" and "easy", isn't that the beauty of Amway?

Too many people get into this with the idea that without giving it their best effort, they will somehow rise to the top. That does not work in ANY walk of life, why should it here? and seeing how this is only a part time venture for most people, is it any wonder that 95% of them fall by the wayside.

When you STP do you mention it takes long hours or do you use the usual 10-15 hours a week for 2 years? I know the plan, I know the standard answers. Buy from yourself, get your friends to join up get their friends to join up, 10-15 hours and in 2 years you will be financially free. What they don't mention is attrition rates, real amount of hours devoted on average, real avg profit per distributor etc. You hide information that shows the true picture in showing the plan, you straight out lie, either for deceptive purposes or due to ignorance.

You can't survive from an amway income working it fulltime, there is no income unless you get other suckers under you and that is just a case of luck not trying. I have known many distributors and it is just luck if you get a good recruit to boost you up or not, there is no guaranteed mark that even an experienced pro can pick out from a crowd. It's a numbers game pure and simple. everyone hopes they get the right numbers.

As far as it being a pyramid, it is structured that way by some business concepts but it is not a true or illegal pyramid simply because it does have a product line and any Independant Business Owner (IBO) can rise to the top.

It is not classed as a pyramid due to the X retail customer/X retail PV rule that no one follows, there have been lawsuits over this and it is the only thing stopping Amway being illegal in the US and Australia. Look it up the rule is in your starter kit I forget what page, but no distributor I have ever seen meets that rule. The definition of a pyramid scheme is one whereby wealth is generated within the structure by its own members with no external input of funds or retailing occuring. Amway knows this and has implemented the retail rule that everyone ignores, heck upline will even tell you it's just a leftover and no need to pay attention to it. If Amway were not to have that rule they would be outlawed in a lot of countries. On top of this it was only one of 3 things saving them from being classed as a classic pyramid. Tell me do YOU have 10 retail customers? Of course not, no one follows the rule and Amways says it can't police all IBOs. Now how many of those 3 things are still being followed today? none? well hello pyramid, it's just a case of the govt doesn't care anymore if idiots get ripped off after all this time.

In In re Amway Corp.,(19) another landmark decision from the 1970's, the FTC distinguished an illegal pyramid from a legitimate multilevel marketing program. At the time, Amway manufactured and sold cleaning supplies and other household products. Under the Amway Plan, each distributor purchased household products at wholesale from the person who recruited or "sponsored" her. The top distributors purchased from Amway itself. A distributor earned money from retail sales by pocketing the difference between the wholesale price at which she purchased the product, and the retail price at which she sold it. She also received a monthly bonus based on the total amount of Amway products that she purchased for resale to both consumers and to her sponsored distributors.(20)

Since distributors were compensated both for selling products to consumers and to newly-recruited distributors, there was some question as to whether this was a legitimate multilevel marketing program or an illegal pyramid scheme. The Commission held that, although Amway had made false and misleading earnings claims when recruiting new distributors,(21) the company's sales plan was not an illegal pyramid scheme. Amway differed in several ways from pyramid schemes that the Commission had challenged. It did not charge an up-front "head hunting" or large investment fee from new recruits, nor did it promote "inventory loading" by requiring distributors to buy large volumes of nonreturnable inventory. Instead, Amway only required distributors to buy a relatively inexpensive sales kit. Moreover, Amway had three different policies to encourage distributors to actually sell the company's soaps, cleaners, and household products to real end users. First, Amway required distributors to buy back any unused and marketable products from their recruits upon request. Second, Amway required each distributor to sell at wholesale or retail at least 70 percent of its purchased inventory each month -- a policy known as the 70% rule. Finally, Amway required each sponsoring distributor to make at least one retail sale to each of 10 different customers each month, known as the 10 customer rule.(22)

The Commission found that these three policies prevented distributors from buying or forcing others to buy unneeded inventory just to earn bonuses. Thus, Amway did not fit the Koscot definition: Amway participants were not purchasing the right to earn profits unrelated to the sale of products to consumers "by recruiting other participants, who themselves are interested in recruitment fees rather than the sale of products."(23)

As for you trying to bring people out of it, you might be better served trying to learn what makes the 5% of the people who try this successful and helping the people you know instead of standing in the way of what might be a very successful life for them. After all, you just might be taking a future Crown Ambassador out of a dream life.

haha how many distributors are there? How many Crown Ambassadors? how long have Crown Ambassadors been in? Look at the stats, Crown Ambassadors got in early, don't kid yourself. People at the top of the pyramid make money I never said they didn't. It's just chances of someone getting to the top NOW is miniscule. There are other successful lives out there apart from Amway, try investing the same amount elsewhere you get a better return, problem is people don't have discipline, which is why they take the 10-15 hours for 2 years option which exists only in a sales pitch.

We all start at the bottom of something don't we?

Yeah but most people get paid to start at the bottom not pay someone for the privilege of buying overpriced products. Try clipping coupons and working the sales circuit you'll save more than in amway then invest that over time in some shares or a 5% bank account, then get a 10-15 hour part time job and put that money away too, in 2 years you'll be better off than in Amway and that is a guarantee. And you will be a more whole person because of it, people won't avoid talking to you because you look like a cult follower on a mad recruitment drive 24/7 you'll start seeing people for people not for recruits.

How much did you get paid for going to uni?

I am getting paid over 70k a year for having gone to uni. Uni cost me (because I fooled around) about 25k in HECS(loan) and 15k max a year in living expenses for 4 years so all up uni was a 85k investment OVER 4 YEARS, and in return I am making more than 70k a year or $1346 a week. Now work out if I had not gone to uni my living expenses would still have been around 13k a year for a place to live, food, car, entertainment so 15k is reduced to 2k for books etc. So Uni by itself cost me 33k investment OVER 4 YEARS or $8250 a year or $159 a week. Now due to the HECS system I have delayed repaying 25k of that until i earn enough (like now when my investment is paying off and I can afford it) so in effect uni cost me 8K over 4 years, or 2k per year or $40 PER WEEK. Consider I was getting youth allowance at the time, the overall cost of University was actually a profit during my attendance. If I had a part time job uni would have not cost me any more. Education is still one of the best investments one can make no matter what your upline tells you.

Now how much are you planning on sinking into Amway and what kind of payment are you looking for at the end of it? You will be spending more faking it until you are making it than I have on my education. Now who's numbers look better you tell me?

I was paid to go to university as part of my job recently so again my cost was $0 and I got a pay rise at the end, does Amway do that? What training have you received under Amway? books? tapes? Was any of it free? did any of it tell you anything really useful you could not have learnt elsewhere for less> what are they about? "follow our system you can't fail because we are rich so will you be just follow us" is all you get. Great training, makes you real employable in the future with that knowledge.

For all others reading these posts I apologise for the length, but I feel it's a good exercise for people to see how Amway people think. Let this be a warning to everyone, no matter how much you think you will stay normal if you join, you too will succumb to groupthink, it's inevitable because the systems have been in effect for decades allowing fine tuning.

 

[insider]

Not much happening in class so here are some more verbose answers.

I don't know what uni you studied at but the one I studied at happened to allow me to examine MLM as a distribution and marketing system, perhaps my uni is just more flexible in what they allow one to study. The skills required in Amway are not business skills, they are deception and denial skills.

Really? And how much experience at building an Amway business do you have exactly?

I was being shown the plan when you were still in Primary School, I know the real deal. The plan as it is shown resembles nothing of the reality of the business. Start STP with honesty and I will stop arguing amway is ripping people off.

Oh, so you've seen Desmond show the plan then? Could you let us know what he said that was dishonest?

You just described every job or business ever created. But Amway is supposed to be "different" and "easy", isn't that the beauty of Amway?

Ahh, no. Amway is certainly different, but it's not "easy". The beauty of it is that it's easier, cheaper, and lower risk, with better rewards, then any other business opportunity I've seen.

When you STP do you mention it takes long hours or do you use the usual 10-15 hours a week for 2 years?

But I thought you'd seen Desmond show the plan? You asked him to start showing it honestly, implying he wasn't already. You mean you haven't seen him show the plan?

A little dishonest of you don't you think?

I know the plan, I know the standard answers. Buy from yourself, get your friends to join up get their friends to join up, 10-15 hours and in 2 years you will be financially free.

Don't know what plan you saw, but that's not the one I saw. It was a 2-5 year plan of 10-20hrs/wk for financial freedom.

Since it took the average Diamond in Australia (income >$190K/yr) just a fraction over 5 years to qualify, and plenty did it in less than that, including less than 2 years, it seems honest enough to me.

What they don't mention is attrition rates, real amount of hours devoted on average, real avg profit per distributor etc. You hide information that shows the true picture in showing the plan, you straight out lie, either for deceptive purposes or due to ignorance.

So now you're accusing Desmond of dishonesty again - so you have seen him show the plan? Or are you being dishonest again?

I know that at one of the first seminars I went to, one of the main speakers said that most of us wouldn't still be around in 2 years. I must have misheard though, cause that would have mean we were being told about the big secret - attrition! And I guess when I was shown the "followup" and my sponsor spoke about how few people actually do anything, so hardly anyone makes any money, that must have been my imagination too ....

So please, tell us your experience - how many Network 21 seminars have you been too exactly?

You can't survive from an amway income working it fulltime, there is no income unless you get other suckers under you and that is just a case of luck not trying.

Really? Oh god, I better go call my sponsor who has spent no time or money on this business for a couple of years now ... but still keeps getting paid! Or maybe not ... geez, I hope his kids are ok, how do they survive? But hang on ... there's also that amway business I built and didn't work for several years ... but people kept on shopping on a2k, and every month bonuses were paid ... even when I wasn't even in Australia! Nah ... must have been a dream ...

LeftRightOut would know ... he's obviously BeenRightIn so is an expert!

I have known many distributors and it is just luck if you get a good recruit to boost you up or not, there is no guaranteed mark that even an experienced pro can pick out from a crowd. It's a numbers game pure and simple. everyone hopes they get the right numbers.

Obviously they didn't have statistics in your marketing course? "a numbers game" and luck are not the same thing.

It is not classed as a pyramid due to the X retail customer/X retail PV rule that no one follows, there have been lawsuits over this and it is the only thing stopping Amway being illegal in the US and Australia.

After you take a statistics course, try a law course. Then you might find out what the sine qua non of a pyramid scheme is. And here's a hint - it has nothing to do with customers!

Look it up the rule is in your starter kit I forget what page, but no distributor I have ever seen meets that rule. The definition of a pyramid scheme is one whereby wealth is generated within the structure by its own members with no external input of funds or retailing occuring.

Beep! Wrong again! That might be a ponzi scheme or illegal marketing scheme, but that's not the definition of a pyramid scheme.

But it's irrelevant to Amway, since you make no money unless there is retailing occuring. Oh - and before you embarrass yourself in your reply, I suggest you go look up what "retail sale" means. Ask the ATO.

haha how many distributors are there? How many Crown Ambassadors? how long have Crown Ambassadors been in? Look at the stats, Crown Ambassadors got in early, don't kid yourself.

You mean my friends who live on a house right on the beach at the gold coast? The ones who joined some ten years after Amway came to Australia? (you know - early). Or are you talking about my Austrian friends (well, acquaintances really) who just qualified Crown Ambassador - more than 20 years after Amway opened there?

Exactly how "early" is early then? How about 2003, which is when the Kagan's started working the business in Sydney. And last year is when they went Diamond. Was 2003 "early"?

People at the top of the pyramid make money I never said they didn't. It's just chances of someone getting to the top NOW is miniscule.

Top? What top? I thought you were an expert on this business? With all the advice you're giving here I certainly thought you must have been! But if you were you wouldn't make nonsensical statements like that. It is more than possible for some dude to join tomorrow (you know, "the bottom") and make more money than anyone else in Australia. My active upline has hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people in his business that make a lot more than he does.

There are other successful lives out there apart from Amway,

Of course, whoever said it's the only way?

try investing the same amount elsewhere you get a better return, problem is people don't have discipline, which is why they take the 10-15 hours for 2 years option which exists only in a sales pitch.

hmm, well lets do some maths here. Hardcore IBO would be working maybe 20hrs a week and spend tops $4000/yr.

Kagans took 2 years to get there, so that's $8000 investment and 20hrs/wk for 2 years and a return of ~$200,000/yr ongoing income.

I'm always looking for business ideas, so I'd appreciate it if you could tell us where we could invest "the same amount elsewhere" for "a better return"?

Yeah but most people get paid to start at the bottom not pay someone for the privilege of buying overpriced products. Try clipping coupons and working the sales circuit you'll save more than in amway then invest that over time in some shares or a 5% bank account, then get a 10-15 hour part time job and put that money away too, in 2 years you'll be better off than in Amway and that is a guarantee.

Ok ... 2 years to be getting $200K/yr ongoing ... so, say 5% return, that means you have $4,000,000 in the bank. Wow! $4,000,000 million in only 2 years! Saving $2,000,000/yr That's some pretty impressive coupon clipping!

But lets be slow, take it easy, assume wer'e bad at this, and instead of the Kagans, lets take someone who say took 10 years, twice the average time to Diamond in Australia. 10 years, $40000 total investment, plus 20hrs a week.

Your bank equivalent - saving $400,000/yr. (less with compounding)

Some damn impressive coupon clipping going on there!

And you will be a more whole person because of it, people won't avoid talking to you because you look like a cult follower on a mad recruitment drive 24/7 you'll start seeing people for people not for recruits.

If people avoid talking to you, then I suggest perhaps the problem maybe with you. This is one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever read from people about this business. I've never lost a friend and gained many. Don't blame Amway if you're an obnoxious git.

I am getting paid over 70k a year for having gone to uni. Uni cost me (because I fooled around) about 25k in HECS(loan) and 15k max a year in living expenses for 4 years so all up uni was a 85k investment OVER 4 YEARS, and in return I am making more than 70k a year or $1346 a week. Now work out if I had not gone to uni my living expenses would still have been around 13k a year for a place to live, food, car, entertainment so 15k is reduced to 2k for books etc. So Uni by itself cost me 33k investment OVER 4 YEARS or $8250 a year or $159 a week. Now due to the HECS system I have delayed repaying 25k of that until i earn enough (like now when my investment is paying off and I can afford it) so in effect uni cost me 8K over 4 years, or 2k per year or $40 PER WEEK. Consider I was getting youth allowance at the time, the overall cost of University was actually a profit during my attendance.

Well this says it all. "I was leeching off the taxpayer, so therefore I made a profit"!

If I had a part time job uni would have not cost me any more. Education is still one of the best investments one can make no matter what your upline tells you.

My upline and I all have multiple degrees. I'm considering starting a PhD now ... with no stress about needing to leech off the taxpayer or get grants. Nice feeling

Now how much are you planning on sinking into Amway and what kind of payment are you looking for at the end of it? You will be spending more faking it until you are making it than I have on my education. Now who's numbers look better you tell me?

Indeed. You tell me.

I was paid to go to university as part of my job recently so again my cost was $0 and I got a pay rise at the end, does Amway do that? What training have you received under Amway? books? tapes? Was any of it free?

Oh! Now I understand! You think Amway is a job! Duh. Terrible investment as a job, I entirely agree. Unless you're a super salesman of course.

But it's not a job. It's a business. Business owners take responsibility for their businesses. You obviously think success is about how often you can get other people to pay for things for you.

did any of it tell you anything really useful you could not have learnt elsewhere for less> what are they about? "follow our system you can't fail because we are rich so will you be just follow us" is all you get. Great training, makes you real employable in the future with that knowledge.

Well that's kind of the point - we're trying to teach people how not to be employees. Though numerous people report promotions aftering beginning on the N21 education system. Me, I quit my job, started Amway, used the education to start other businesses, sold one of them for six figures. And all using books that were cheaper than when I compared at book stores. And seminars that were cheaper when I compared to other business/leadership/personal development seminars. And tape/cd programs that weere cheaper than anything else I could find.

Bargain huh?

How's your ROI going?

For all others reading these posts I apologise for the length, but I feel it's a good exercise for people to see how Amway people think. Let this be a warning to everyone, no matter how much you think you will stay normal if you join, you too will succumb to groupthink, it's inevitable because the systems have been in effect for decades allowing fine tuning.

And this is an excellent post to see how people who are not prospects for our business think. They think like employees.

But if you want to learn how to think like a business owner, and learn about a business with low startup costs and low risk, with very high ROI, then maybe it's something for you.

Oh, after you've taken the statistic course and the law course, try a "how to read instructions" course - then you'd know amway products are often way cheaper than other brands. Some are not, like Nutriway, but that's because they're the best.

But don't believe me, go ask Asafa Powell.

 

[LeftrightOut]

Really? And how much experience at building an Amway business do you have exactly?

More than someone who is completing their HSC in 2006. Don't worry I won't try to steal your dream, i'll just get people to think about things while you go frothing at the mouth with bullshit excuses and empty sayings.

Oh, so you've seen Desmond show the plan then? Could you let us know what he said that was dishonest?

Oh so you saying Desmond is an IBO now? Certainly not what he originally claims. There is only one standard show the plan and you know it, anyone who deviates is chastised, in fact the first few plans will be shown with your upline present to make sure you follow the set guide.

Ahh, no. Amway is certainly different, but it's not "easy". The beauty of it is that it's easier, cheaper, and lower risk, with better rewards, then any other business opportunity I've seen.

What happened to easy 10-15 hours in 2 years be financially free? Don't tell me you never show the plan the proper way either by telling people it's a hard slog?
You should get out and see more business opportunities then, there are a lot of online opportunities that do not require you to cold canvas strangers in the street at all hours.

But I thought you'd seen Desmond show the plan? You asked him to start showing it honestly, implying he wasn't already. You mean you haven't seen him show the plan?

A little dishonest of you don't you think?

An ambot is an ambot he is telling me enough in his posts to let me know he is a good little ambot and would not deviate from the standard STP seeing he uses the same quotes as expected for every rebuttal. Now before you start on further ad hominems how about some facts from you then? What is your vested interest apart from being called in as his upline to argue against a dream stealer?

Don't know what plan you saw, but that's not the one I saw. It was a 2-5 year plan of 10-20hrs/wk for financial freedom.

Since it took the average Diamond in Australia (income >$190K/yr) just a fraction over 5 years to qualify, and plenty did it in less than that, including less than 2 years, it seems honest enough to me.

Oh no they upped it 2-5 years now, still 10-15 hours a week though, definitely not HARD is it? Average Diamond? haha sources please, give me a quote, even from your beloved amway endorsed literature show me your source please do, your credibility is fleeting, you keep sprouting the same upline talk as all ambots, I am not trying to steal your dream I am just trying to make others see how silly you ambots are. The only way a diamond makes over 190k is from training materials. How many diamonds are in Australia? How many IBOs? Are you a diamond? Maybe you just worked at it for 4 and a half years, your diamond status is right around the corner only half a year more to go come on nearly there.

So now you're accusing Desmond of dishonesty again - so you have seen him show the plan? Or are you being dishonest again?

I know that at one of the first seminars I went to, one of the main speakers said that most of us wouldn't still be around in 2 years. I must have misheard though, cause that would have mean we were being told about the big secret - attrition! And I guess when I was shown the "followup" and my sponsor spoke about how few people actually do anything, so hardly anyone makes any money, that must have been my imagination too ....

But wait! You said 10-15hours and 2-5 years you'll be rich, I refuse to believe that people do not have 10-15 hours a week spare. You say it's easy but now you concede lots drop out, so how is it easy to build a good line if people keep dropping out? You mean it depends on luck of numbers and not my actual work effort now? You say it's easy but why the big attrition if it's easy and anyone can do it? Are you saying lots of idiots join amway? I think you are saying lots of idiots join amway, now to figure out if they are the ones who hang around or quit that is the hard thing. What abouut a person who joins then quits then joins again? Do they become less of an idiot upon rejoining?

So please, tell us your experience - how many Network 21 seminars have you been too exactly?

How many would satisfy your curiosity to know what I am talking about? 10? 20? 200? It's a useless question because the next thing you will ask is when I was last active, so if my number is low in mettings you will attack that and if it's outdated you will attack that. But trust me it's a useless argument, amway is still amway.

Really? Oh god, I better go call my sponsor who has spent no time or money on this business for a couple of years now ... but still keeps getting paid! Or maybe not ... geez, I hope his kids are ok, how do they survive? But hang on ... there's also that amway business I built and didn't work for several years ... but people kept on shopping on a2k, and every month bonuses were paid ... even when I wasn't even in Australia! Nah ... must have been a dream ...

Of course, everyone is successful right, I bet you drive a lamborghini too and are about to buy the Sydney Harbour Bridge so you can convert it to a lawnbowls green. Sure whatever, predictable.

Obviously they didn't have statistics in your marketing course? "a numbers game" and luck are not the same thing.

The Numbers Game or Policy Racket is a lottery game where the bettor attempts to pick three or four numbers from zero to nine that will be randomly drawn.

You keep trying but you keep failing, I really should stop feeding trolls. I think it's time you went back to school.

After you take a statistics course, try a law course. Then you might find out what the sine qua non of a pyramid scheme is. And here's a hint - it has nothing to do with customers!

After you have a huge serving of humble pie how about you start reading prior lawsuit and rulings since you are now also a lawyer, I quite succinctly gave the reference of the ruling and what the FTC definition how about you take the time (since you have so much spare cos you have so much money) and read the entire thing. And here's a hint for you, you are in over your head. No matter what your silly little book of amwayism tells you the fact remains Amway is safe from one interpretation from the 70s and many of the points protecting amway are no longer enforced directly. YES IT HAS TO DO WITH RETAIL CUSTOMERS AND VOLUME. A pyramid by definition distributes money within itself from its own members heavily biased towards those at the top without external funds. I hope you are not an active lawyer i'd hate to see your track record. You can quote all the latin you like doesn't make you any more authoritative on the subject. I know what a pyramid scheme is and I know the law surrounding various schemes and how they were prosecuted. Please elaborate where you get your information from because it isn't anythig based in legal precedence in any country I know of.

Beep! Wrong again! That might be a ponzi scheme or illegal marketing scheme, but that's not the definition of a pyramid scheme.

BUZZZ Wrong again, read the FTC ruling supplied in previous post. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then chances are it is not a horse. Only thing stopping it is retailing.

But it's irrelevant to Amway, since you make no money unless there is retailing occuring. Oh - and before you embarrass yourself in your reply, I suggest you go look up what "retail sale" means. Ask the ATO.

Since in your opinion I am such a "loser" and dream stealer how about you give me a link to the ATO definition? I have given links to lawsuits and definitions how about you extend the same courtesy to me? especially since you are the one trying to prove a point, back it up with facts. Most money in Amway is made by the tools trade higher up, hardly anyone retails and you are pushed to get numbers under you not go out and sell to neighbours. When was the last time you hit 70% retail or had 10 retail customers (50PV now?). who the heck would retail when you could have another distributor under you.

You mean my friends who live on a house right on the beach at the gold coast? The ones who joined some ten years after Amway came to Australia? (you know - early). Or are you talking about my Austrian friends (well, acquaintances really) who just qualified Crown Ambassador - more than 20 years after Amway opened there?

Wow 2 IBOs real impressive, I guess they lived in a cardboard box before "seeing the light" right? never had an income beforehand, no savings ever, they were "losers" until they joined amway and after just 10-15 hours and 5 years they now live in a house on the beach, which they assumedly own. I;ve heard of "fake it till you make it" so keep going, give me hard evidence.

Exactly how "early" is early then? How about 2003, which is when the Kagan's started working the business in Sydney. And last year is when they went Diamond. Was 2003 "early"?

haha one example, I never said NO ONE makes it NOW, I am saying NO ONE will make it SUPER BIG, Diamond is not super big, and nowhere near 200k a year in amway commissions.
http://www.quixtarwiki.com/index.php?title=Kagan,_Ronnie_&_Jane
4 years to Diamond, Was I not talking about Crown Ambassadors? Just like Desmond?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Ambassador#Australian_Crown_Ambassadors

Top? What top? I thought you were an expert on this business? With all the advice you're giving here I certainly thought you must have been! But if you were you wouldn't make nonsensical statements like that. It is more than possible for some dude to join tomorrow (you know, "the bottom") and make more money than anyone else in Australia. My active upline has hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people in his business that make a lot more than he does.

Of course, "it's not a pyramid it's a trapezoid" is the classic rebuttal. Now you are being generous with numbers, hundreds or maybe thousands who make a lot more than he does? I doubt he has ever had that many in his downline active at the same time. Re-read that and see how stupid it sounds. A person who joins now has NO chance of making more than those all the way at the top of the pyramid, the structure is not supportive of that, the absolute top make more in tool sales than the bottom ever will. It is a pyramid, the guy below you will NEVER have more people than you, simply because if he has a million people under him you will have a million and one.

Of course, whoever said it's the only way?

JOB = Just over Broke. There is only the Amway. Go Diamond! Keep chanting I heard it all at meetings, oh you don't join in? that's a bad little ambot bad bad, naughty naughty must join in the chants. Do they make you sit down in turn if you haven't gone core this month or not ordered the water purifier still?

hmm, well lets do some maths here. Hardcore IBO would be working maybe 20hrs a week and spend tops $4000/yr.

Kagans took 2 years to get there, so that's $8000 investment and 20hrs/wk for 2 years and a return of ~$200,000/yr ongoing income.

I'm always looking for business ideas, so I'd appreciate it if you could tell us where we could invest "the same amount elsewhere" for "a better return"?

20 hours a week? What happened to 10-15?? is that 20 of showing the plan? or STP and attending meetings? or STP attending meetings and travelling to sites? Never hear the tapes where the people brag about driving X hours to show the plan? Where do you pull the $4k from? Sources please, back up your claims, is that $4k in buying water purifiers? or does it include meetings and tapes and rallies and getaway weekends and "business lunches". You write all that off right? Get back to us when you get an audit sometime.

You have seen their profit and loss and tax records to verify it took $8000 and they make $200k a year just in amway commissions and no tools sales? You know they spent 20 hours a week? I won't hear them on some tape telling me they left their kids in the car and they faked it till they made it? give me proof, I have proof, I have court documents and many case studies, I will just not waste my time fishing them out for a simple ambot troll like yourself until you start giving me some hard facts and showing me you are up to the challenge and not just a typical upline who tries to jump in for his newbie pupil who got involved with someone who knows more than they do.

Sure here's a business for you: domain names. Oh you don't know anything about that business? don't worry all the info is on the internet for free, no tapes needed. Outlay, AU$8 per name, return depends if you sell or commission it. Use your $150 to buy 18 names.

Ok ... 2 years to be getting $200K/yr ongoing ... so, say 5% return, that means you have $4,000,000 in the bank. Wow! $4,000,000 million in only 2 years! Saving $2,000,000/yr That's some pretty impressive coupon clipping!

Of course you are making that much too aren't you? So is everyone right? You know the Kagans personally yes? You saw their financial records through it all of course, you know they lived in a cardboard box before they joined amway. You know they make $200k purely from amway commission and not tool sales right? You have seen their tax records stating they make 200k a year? of course you do, you're a distributor, other distributors would not lie to you right? What was it again? 10-15 or 20 hours? 2 years or 5? buy for yourself but everyone retails? Keep going, put in some facts next time. Stop using your amway logic on numbers, you will never keep that going without staying active youu have no clue what happens to inactive high pins

But lets be slow, take it easy, assume wer'e bad at this, and instead of the Kagans, lets take someone who say took 10 years, twice the average time to Diamond in Australia. 10 years, $40000 total investment, plus 20hrs a week.

Your bank equivalent - saving $400,000/yr. (less with compounding)

Some damn impressive coupon clipping going on there!

Where are you pulling these numbers from? What makes you think $4k is the amount to sink into the business per year? Sources please, sources sources sources since it's your argument here it's your credibility on the line not mine, I back all of my points up you seem to not be able to. 10-15 hours in 2-5 years please if I join it's because of the "normal" timeframe as shown in the plan not 20 hours for any amount of years 10-15 is what I am told in the plan and in your post too. Which is it? consistency please this is supposed to be easy and foolproof now you're saying it's not? how many Kagans are there? How come they are the only ones you mention?

If people avoid talking to you, then I suggest perhaps the problem maybe with you. This is one of the most ridiculous comments I've ever read from people about this business. I've never lost a friend and gained many. Don't blame Amway if you're an obnoxious git.

You should hear some of the ridiculous comments ambots make about the business. Amway turns people into obnoxious gits, just look at your first posting in this forum.

Well this says it all. "I was leeching off the taxpayer, so therefore I made a profit"!

I was given support by the community when I required it and I am now a productive member of the same community contributing to the overall welfare of the nation by properly paying my taxes as due. Now say it all to anyone who cares, stop twisting things, seem to not have too much problem with my other sums? no argument about $40 a week being a good investment? no? get a clue and stop the ad hominems they just show you have no substance. give me facts, I live in a world of facts not rumours and hearsay.

My upline and I all have multiple degrees. I'm considering starting a PhD now ... with no stress about needing to leech off the taxpayer or get grants. Nice feeling

haha "leeching" oh you are really in the wrong place here. You have no idea as to what my financial situation was when I did my first degree, I am sure your first degree was probably paid for by mummy and daddy or heck you were probably a crown ambassador when you did your first degree right? never needed a hand with anything right? amway all your life born as an Executive Diamond? Foot in mouth much? Seems so.

Now how much are you planning on sinking into Amway and what kind of payment are you looking for at the end of it? You will be spending more faking it until you are making it than I have on my education. Now who's numbers look better you tell me?

Indeed. You tell me.

why should I have to? I don't see your name on the list of Diamonds otherwise you'd be throwing it at me along with all the spittle. So obviously you aren't doing too well, there are people who do well in amway, trust me you are not one of them. The people who do well don't waste their time on a forum on behalf of their silly downline who decided to pick an argument with someone more knowledgable than him. They are too busy recording their next tape of "God wants you to be rich" describing some hard lucuk story and how amway helped them overcome it which you will be buying next month as a must have.

Oh! Now I understand! You think Amway is a job! Duh. Terrible investment as a job, I entirely agree. Unless you're a super salesman of course.

But it's not a job. It's a business. Business owners take responsibility for their businesses. You obviously think success is about how often you can get other people to pay for things for you.

aha of course, why don't you go read cashflow quadrant by one of your gods (kiyosaki). There are "self employed" opportunities then there are "business" opportunities. Amway at best is a self employment opportunity, if you stop working it you will not be making anything for long, people will drop off due to attrition and your income will go down, many high pins do not requalify but still claim the pin later on. How many high pins do you NEVER see at functions? they all sign committment and appearance papers to ensure they are publicly visible, heck it's where they make their money so why shouldn't they keep endorsing events. There is no one "retired" who is in amway, those on high levels work just as hard on the circuit as they do in a normal 9-5. Amway is not a business, don't even kid yourself on it, they can yank your downline anytime they feel like it and they have done it to IBOs many times, you are not incorporated as a business, you do not have any kind of agreement with amway you just have a catalogue, a handshake and a general set of rules against which they will yank your employee status. You are a commission based free agent nothing more. You have less rights than an employee and less benefits than a proper business.

Well that's kind of the point - we're trying to teach people how not to be employees. Though numerous people report promotions aftering beginning on the N21 education system. Me, I quit my job, started Amway, used the education to start other businesses, sold one of them for six figures. And all using books that were cheaper than one I compared at book stores. And seminars that were cheaper when I compared to other business/leadership/personal development seminars. And tape/cd programs that where cheaper than anything else I could find.

Bargain huh?

One thing I will agree on is a lot of people who join have no people skills, that is one thing the tapes do help with is soft skills and motivation, in most cases only for the amway way. You won't see any motivational stuff or advice from anyone not directly involved with Amway in their training tools.

How's your ROI going?

It's going good, I help people everyday, I work when I feel like it and I have been overseas for most of last year on holidays and for my employer. I pretty much love my career. i have just come back from 2 weeks overseas and went for a 2 month holiday over Christmas, in 7 weeks or so I will be going to Europe for 2 weeks and end of the year around Asia again. I have been asked to once again return to the UAE but my European commitments would fall right on that so won't be going there for 3 months like last year. My JOB is a 4 letter word to me, GOOD.

And this is an excellent post to see how people who are not prospects for our business think. They think like employees.

Nothing wrong with thinking like employees, but you'd still take my money and sign me up.

But if you want to learn how to think like a business owner, and learn about a business with low startup costs and low risk, with very high ROI, then maybe it's something for you.

You admitted to making money with a businesses outside of Amway so I don't think it's fair to say you make money with Amway or have a high ROI just from that. Don't cloud the issue. To anyone contemplating a real business forget Amway go to a New Enterprise Incentive Scheme (NEIS) course offered for free by the government and get some real training for free.

Oh, after you've taken the statistic course and the law course, try a "how to read instructions" course - then you'd know amway products are often way cheaper than other brands. Some are not, like Nutriway, but that's because they're the best.

And after you learn to reference come back and show me an independent study to prove this. When talking cheaper they are often comparing to other high price catalogue distributuors not the supermarket or weird configurations not available elsewhere. Can I buy 2 litre bottles of coke or pepsi through amway? why should I have to buy a case of 24x600ml ones? I can get coke at around 99 cents a litre from the supermarket? I follow a balanced diet and exercise no need for pills to make me whole.

But don't believe me, go ask Asafa Powell.

haha sports stars endorsing products, now you really are showing your level of thinking. They would endorse an enema bag if they got paid for it.

Yes some people make money on Amway, SOME, most people who join WILL NEVER be making money no matter how hard they work the plan.

 

[pete_mate]

so let me get this straight:

your start up your own business which buys shit off some other amway business, and then you resell it at a higher price.

there is no way that can possibly generate any substantial returns

 

[insider]

Apologies in advance for the long post folks, but LeftRightOut has written a lot of disinformation that needs to be addressed!

Oh so you saying Desmond is an IBO now? Certainly not what he originally claims. There is only one standard show the plan and you know it, anyone who deviates is chastised, in fact the first few plans will be shown with your upline present to make sure you follow the set guide.

Umm, it was you that implied Desmond was being dishonest when he showed the plan. Given such incredible knowledge of what he does and says, I assumed he must have shown you the plan?

Are you admitting you have no idea what Desmond, or indeed myself say?

What happened to easy 10-15 hours in 2 years be financially free? Don't tell me you never show the plan the proper way either by telling people it's a hard slog?

I dunno, what did happen to it? Disappear when you woke up? Look, if someone told you that, then they misled you. It's certainly much easier than any other business (and I've started several - how about you?) but for most people it's quite tough on top of their jobs.

You should get out and see more business opportunities then, there are a lot of online opportunities that do not require you to cold canvas strangers in the street at all hours.

Really? That's great. The idea of cold canvassing strangers on the street isn't my idea of a good time. Good thing I don't have to do it.

An ambot is an ambot he is telling me enough in his posts to let me know he is a good little ambot and would not deviate from the standard STP seeing he uses the same quotes as expected for every rebuttal. Now before you start on further ad hominems how about some facts from you then? What is your vested interest apart from being called in as his upline to argue against a dream stealer?

Upline? Nope, guess again. I have no idea who he is. Never met him. I just enjoy battling ignorance like you display.

Oh no they upped it 2-5 years now, still 10-15 hours a week though, definitely not HARD is it?

"they"? Who's this "they"? Is it some big conspiracy?
10-20hrs a week for 2-5 years is easier compared to most things with similar results, but that doesn't make it easy.

Average Diamond? haha sources please, give me a quote, even from your beloved amway endorsed literature show me your source please do, your credibility is fleeting, you keep sprouting the same upline talk as all ambots, I am not trying to steal your dream I am just trying to make others see how silly you ambots are. The only way a diamond makes over 190k is from training materials. How many diamonds are in Australia?

www.thisbiznow.com gives average incomes. The payouts are the same in Australia, adjusted for exchange rates.

How many IBOs? Are you a diamond? Maybe you just worked at it for 4 and a half years, your diamond status is right around the corner only half a year more to go come on nearly there.

mmmhmmm. Or maybe I'm one of those guys that did it in less than 2 years. How about you, please, share your great experience with us? Why should we listen to you?

But wait! You said 10-15hours and 2-5 years you'll be rich, I refuse to believe that people do not have 10-15 hours a week spare.

Oh! So desmond wasn't the only one who showed you the plan? I did too apparently! I must have since you know so much about what I do. Please, enlighten me as to where and when I said "15hours and 2-5 years you'll be rich"?

You say it's easy but now you concede lots drop out, so how is it easy to build a good line if people keep dropping out?

Now I "concede"? Concede what? Less than 40% of people who register even buy anything. However ... most of those who do buy stuff renew. And some of those want to make some money. There's no secret, that's the business.

You're such an expert you didn't even know these things?

Please, explain the significance of 20-12-9-3 and where luck comes in to it.

You mean it depends on luck of numbers and not my actual work effort now?

LRO, go enrol in that statistics course, you're embarassing yourself.

You say it's easy but why the big attrition if it's easy and anyone can do it?

And don't forget to add a remedial reading course, then you wouldn't miss -

but it's not "easy".

But I guess if you can't argue facts you just have to make stuff up?

Are you saying lots of idiots join amway? I think you are saying lots of idiots join amway, now to figure out if they are the ones who hang around or quit that is the hard thing. What abouut a person who joins then quits then joins again? Do they become less of an idiot upon rejoining?

When you've finished arguing with yourself, let me know. What makes you think people who join and then elect not to do anything are idiots?

How many would satisfy your curiosity to know what I am talking about? 10? 20? 200? It's a useless question because the next thing you will ask is when I was last active, so if my number is low in mettings you will attack that and if it's outdated you will attack that. But trust me it's a useless argument, amway is still amway.

Just facts would be nice. I ask again, how many Network 21 seminars have you been too? You're such an expert on what we say and do, it must have been many.

Of course, everyone is successful right, I bet you drive a lamborghini too and are about to buy the Sydney Harbour Bridge so you can convert it to a lawnbowls green. Sure whatever, predictable.

blah blah blah. Go look in a mirror so you can see who you're arguing with.

You keep trying but you keep failing, I really should stop feeding trolls. I think it's time you went back to school.

blah blah blah.

After you have a huge serving of humble pie how about you start reading prior lawsuit and rulings since you are now also a lawyer, I quite succinctly gave the reference of the ruling and what the FTC definition how about you take the time (since you have so much spare cos you have so much money) and read the entire thing.

Taken that remedial reading lesson yet? Apparently not. That was not a definition. The FTC doesn't even make definitions. The courts do. But let's see what the FTC does say -

FTC vs Five-Club Auto

10. In pyramid schemes, each participant pays money to the scheme's promoter in exchange for the right to recruit new participants. Participants then receive benefits for each individual they recruit or who appears below them in their pyramid (commonly referred to as a "downline"). Earnings in a pyramid are derived primarily from recruiting other participants into the program, not from the bona fide sale of products or services

FTC vs Trek Alliance
49.Defendants operate what is commonly known as a "pyramid scheme." In pyramid schemes, each participant pays money to the scheme's promoter in exchange for the right to recruit new participants. Participants then receive benefits for each individual they recruit or who is added to their downline. Earnings in a pyramid scheme are derived primarily from recruiting other participants into the program, not from the retail sale of products or services.

FTC v Equinox
COUNT 12
(Operation of a Pyramid Scheme)
79. Defendants have violated and continue to violate, NRS § 598.110 by contriving,preparing, setting up, proposing, operating, advertising and promoting a pyramid promotional scheme or endless chain. Defendant Equinox is a pyramid promotional scheme pursuant to NRS § 598.100(3) because it is a program or plan for the distribution of property and merchandise by which a participant gives or pays valuable consideration for the opportunity or chance to receive any compensation or thing of value in return for procuring or obtaining one or more additional persons to participate in the program or plan, or for the opportunity to receive compensation of any kind when a person introduced to the program or plan by the participant procures or obtains a new participant in the program or plan.

Or how about other courts?

US v Gold Unlimited

B. The Definition of "Pyramid Scheme"
...
The district court's instructions do not appear misleading or incorrect, however. The district court's definition of "pyramid scheme" (by which we and it mean "illegal pyramid scheme") mirrored that used in several other cases. The district court derived the instructions from the FTC's opinion in In re Koscot Interplanetary, Inc., 86 F.T.C. 1106 (1975), which enjoined the defendants from, inter alia:2. Offering, operating, or participating in, any marketing or sales plan or program wherein a participant is given or promised compensation (1) for inducing other persons to become participants in the plan or program, or (2) when a person induced by the participant induces another person to become a participant in the plan or program Provided, That the term "compensation," as used in this paragraph only, does not mean any payment based on actually consummated sales of goods or services to persons who are not participants in the plan or program and who do not purchase such goods or services in order to resell them.

and

The Federal Trade Commission has established a test for determining what constitutes a pyramid scheme.

Such contrivances "are characterized by the payment by participants of money to the company in return for which they receive (1) the right to sell a product and (2) the right to receive in return for recruiting other participants into the program rewards which are unrelated to sale of the product to ultimate users" [quoting Koscot]. The satisfaction of the second element of the Koscot test is the sine qua non of a pyramid scheme. . . . We adopt the Koscot standard here and hold that the operation of a pyramid scheme constitutes fraud for purposes of several federal antifraud statutes.

The sine qua non of a pyramid scheme. I'll wait while you go look up what that means.

Or how about we look at the FTC v Amway case that you quoted. Funny how you ignored this part -

OPINION OF THE COMMISSION

BY PITOFSKY, Commissioner:
...

A. Allegations That the Amway Plan Is a Pyramid Scheme

...

The Commission had described the essential features of an illegal pyramid scheme:

Such schemes are characterized by the payment by participants of money to the company in return for which they receive (1) the right to sell a product and (2) the right to receive in return for recruiting other participants into the program rewards which are unrelated to sale of the product to ultimate users. . . . As is apparent, the presence of this second element, recruitment with rewards unrelated to product sales, is nothing more than an elaborate chain letter device in which individuals who pay a valuable consideration with the expectation of recouping it to some degree via recruitment are bound to be disappointed. In re Koscot Interplanetary, Inc., 86 F.T.C. 1106, 1180 (1975) (emphasis added), aff'd mem., sub nom. Turner v. FTC 580 F.2d 701 (D.C. Cir. 1978).

But then you never read it did you? You're just spouting BS you read on the 'net somewhere and believed.

And here's a hint for you, you are in over your head. No matter what your silly little book of amwayism tells you the fact remains Amway is safe from one interpretation from the 70s and many of the points protecting amway are no longer enforced directly. YES IT HAS TO DO WITH RETAIL CUSTOMERS AND VOLUME.

Oh, so I see you didn't go look up what a "retail sale" was did you? I warned you that you'd make a fool of yourself. Here's a hint from the ATO site -

retail sale means any sale that is not a wholesale sale.

Now I recommend you go lookup what a wholesale sale is.

A pyramid by definition distributes money within itself from its own members heavily biased towards those at the top without external funds. I hope you are not an active lawyer i'd hate to see your track record. You can quote all the latin you like doesn't make you any more authoritative on the subject. I know what a pyramid scheme is and I know the law surrounding various schemes and how they were prosecuted. Please elaborate where you get your information from because it isn't anythig based in legal precedence in any country I know of.

I base my opinions on courts. You apparently base yours on what you read on the internet by a handful of anti-amway zealots.

BUZZZ Wrong again, read the FTC ruling supplied in previous post. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then chances are it is not a horse. Only thing stopping it is retailing.

Good thing nobody makes any money in Amway without retail sales then.
I warned you you'd make a fool of yourself.

Since in your opinion I am such a "loser" and dream stealer how about you give me a link to the ATO definition?

Arguing with yourself again? I never called you either of those things.

I have given links to lawsuits and definitions how about you extend the same courtesy to me? especially since you are the one trying to prove a point, back it up with facts.

I'm trying to prove a point? I responded to your post I recall.

Most money in Amway is made by the tools trade higher up

Speaking of links to evidence, where's your evidence on that? And I'm not interested in the handful of folk who, quite reasonably, make a profit from other companies they've setup. You say "most money". Amway paid out over $2 billion last year around the world, so "most" is an awful lot of money ....

hardly anyone retails and you are pushed to get numbers under you not go out and sell to neighbours.

You really need to check that definition of "retail" don't you...

When was the last time you hit 70% retail or had 10 retail customers (50PV now?). who the heck would retail when you could have another distributor under you.

ahhh, now you're quoting the mythical "70% retail rule"! You really haven't investigated this yourself at all have you? Do you believe everything you read on the net and just spout it verbatim? There is no 70% retail rule. It's a 70% sales rule, and it means you need to have resold 70% of your volume. If your 1000PV and have a leg that's 700PV, voila it's done. That rule is about preventing, correctly, inventory loading. As for the 50PV rule, if you are authentically operating a business, as per ATO guidelines, then anything you purchase for self consumption is a retail sale by your business to you. Not so hard really is it?

Wow 2 IBOs real impressive, I guess they lived in a cardboard box before "seeing the light" right? never had an income beforehand, no savings ever, they were "losers" until they joined amway and after just 10-15 hours and 5 years they now live in a house on the beach, which they assumedly own. I;ve heard of "fake it till you make it" so keep going, give me hard evidence.

I think you better get another mirror. That argument you're having with yourself is getting quite passionate, I'm worried you might break one.

haha one example, I never said NO ONE makes it NOW, I am saying NO ONE will make it SUPER BIG, Diamond is not super big, and nowhere near 200k a year in amway commissions.
http://www.quixtarwiki.com/index.php?title=Kagan%2C_Ronnie_%26_Jane
4 years to Diamond, Was I not talking about Crown Ambassadors? Just like Desmond?

And if you read what I said, 2 years after they started working. They were just inactive shoppers for a while - they didn't have a business.

And there's a new Australian Crown Ambassador on the way, should be qualified within the next year or so. But is Diamond a "failure" to you is it? Only Crowns good enough? Absurd. Crown Ambassador is a BIG business. Sales in the millions. It takes years. I personally would find it hard to motivate myself past Founder's Executive Diamond (average income >$1,000,000/yr), but then I plan on living a long time, and I enjoy it, so who knows?

Of course, "it's not a pyramid it's a trapezoid" is the classic rebuttal. Now you are being generous with numbers, hundreds or maybe thousands who make a lot more than he does? I doubt he has ever had that many in his downline active at the same time.

He does. Your omniscience is slipping.

Re-read that and see how stupid it sounds. A person who joins now has NO chance of making more than those all the way at the top of the pyramid, the structure is not supportive of that, the absolute top make more in tool sales than the bottom ever will.

You have absolutely no clue at all how this business works do you? A person who joins NOW has EVERY chance of making more than those "all the way at the top". Your statement just goes to show you have no idea how this business works.

It is a pyramid, the guy below you will NEVER have more people than you, simply because if he has a million people under him you will have a million and one.

And how much do I make in that scenario? Zero. How much does he make? Depends on his business structure, but probably more than me.

You've got a classic circular argument. It's a pyramid therefore the guys at the top always make more therefore it's a pyramid ....

After your statistics course, your legal course, and your reading course, I recommend logic.

JOB = Just over Broke. There is only the Amway. Go Diamond! Keep chanting I heard it all at meetings, oh you don't join in? that's a bad little

No meetings I've been at. Sounds like you were part of that group downline of the right-wing evangelicals, I here they do that kind of thing. Their business, they can do it if they want. Not my thing. But you were telling us what we do, not some other organisation working with the amway opportunity.

ambot bad bad, naughty naughty must join in the chants. Do they make you sit down in turn if you haven't gone core this month or not ordered the water purifier still?

Who is this mysterious "they" that does these things? What do "they" do, kidnap your mother and threaten you or something?

20 hours a week? What happened to 10-15?? is that 20 of showing the plan? or STP and attending meetings? or STP attending meetings and travelling to sites? Never hear the tapes where the people brag about driving X hours to show the plan? Where do you pull the $4k from? Sources please, back up your claims, is that $4k in buying water purifiers? or does it include meetings and tapes and rallies and getaway weekends and "business lunches". You write all that off right? Get back to us when you get an audit sometime.

Sources? me. Never spent more than 4K in a year - well, not unless you are counting all those nice tax writeoffs you can claim when you own your own business.

You have seen their profit and loss and tax records to verify it took $8000 and they make $200k a year just in amway commissions and no tools sales? You know they spent 20 hours a week?

No, I haven't. But I know what it costs me. And I know what I make.

I won't hear them on some tape telling me they left their kids in the car and they faked it till they made it? give me proof, I have proof, I have court documents

You have court documents of the Kagans? Would be fun to read, please post.

and many case studies,

uhuh. More people go platinum every year than post these "case studies" on the internet. Though I will grant you one thing, virtually all of them come from that evangelical group you appear to have been a part of.

Not my thing either.

I will just not waste my time fishing them out for a simple ambot troll like yourself until you start giving me some hard facts and showing me you are up to the challenge and not just a typical upline who tries to jump in for his newbie pupil who got involved with someone who knows more than they do.

No idea who Desmond is, I just like trashing the trolls like you.

Sure here's a business for you: domain names. Oh you don't know anything about that business? don't worry all the info is on the internet for free, no tapes needed. Outlay, AU$8 per name, return depends if you sell or commission it. Use your $150 to buy 18 names.

Well, I could do that, but you see, I started one of Australia's first ISPs, and still own a number of internet companies. So I get a much better buy price than that. Why would I want to pay that much?

Of course you are making that much too aren't you? So is everyone right? You know the Kagans personally yes? You saw their financial records through it all of course, you know they lived in a cardboard box before they joined amway. You know they make $200k purely from amway commission and not tool sales right? You have seen their tax records stating they make 200k a year? of course you do, you're a distributor, other distributors would not lie to you right? What was it again? 10-15 or 20 hours? 2 years or 5? buy for yourself but everyone retails? Keep going, put in some facts next time. Stop using your amway logic on numbers, you will never keep that going without staying active youu have no clue what happens to inactive high pins

Really? I don't? You sure about that? You're omniscience astounds me. Now, you started the claims, you start backing them up. Average incomes are published on thisbiznow.com - do you claim they are lying?

Where are you pulling these numbers from? What makes you think $4k is the amount to sink into the business per year? Sources please, sources sources sources since it's your argument here it's your credibility on the line not mine, I back all of my points up you seem to not be able to.

I pull the numbers out of my accounts, where do you pull yours out of?

10-15 hours in 2-5 years please if I join it's because of the "normal" timeframe as shown in the plan not 20 hours for any amount of years 10-15 is what I am told in the plan and in your post too. Which is it?

You do understand that the plan is a theoretical model don't you? It's just to get the idea across?

Don't tell me you actually thought you'd go sponsor exactly 6 people, they'd all go sponsor exactly 4 and so on and everyone would buy exactly $300/mth did you!!!

Oh dear. I'm sorry. I really do think some times that there should be some sort of test people need to pass before they join. Most people think it's obvious it's a theoretical model, you apparently missed that part. A shame.

consistency please this is supposed to be easy and foolproof now you're saying it's not? how many Kagans are there? How come they are the only ones you mention?

I mentioned them because there one of those couples in my uplines group that make a lot more than him. You know, that impossibility.

You should hear some of the ridiculous comments ambots make about the business. Amway turns people into obnoxious gits, just look at your first posting in this forum.

It would seem that Amway isn't necessary to make people obnoxious gits.

I was given support by the community when I required it and I am now a productive member of the same community contributing to the overall welfare of the nation by properly paying my taxes as due. Now say it all to anyone who cares, stop twisting things, seem to not have too much problem with my other sums? no argument about $40 a week being a good investment? no? get a clue and stop the ad hominems they just show you have no substance. give me facts, I live in a world of facts not rumours and hearsay.

Uhuh, facts like cherrypicked statements out of court cases to suit your definition of a pyramid, while completely ignoring the section which they head "Defintion of a pyramid"?

How very honest and factual of you. But I'll let you off, 'cause I think you probably just made the mistake of quoting what someone told you, without checking it out yourself. Always dangerous you know!

haha "leeching" oh you are really in the wrong place here. You have no idea as to what my financial situation was when I did my first degree, I am sure your first degree was probably paid for by mummy and daddy or heck you were probably a crown ambassador when you did your first degree right? never needed a hand with anything right? amway all your life born as an Executive Diamond? Foot in mouth much? Seems so.

Hey, you're the guy who said it was profitable because of government payouts, not me. I did my degree the same way, but I don't claim to have made a profit doing it.

why should I have to? I don't see your name on the list of Diamonds otherwise you'd be throwing it at me along with all the spittle.

So are you saying that if I was a diamond that would make your whole argument bunk? That the existence of one diamond would make all the difference? Of course it wouldn't.

Like you, I'm interested in fighting on the publicly available facts about the business, not basing my argument on any given success or any given failure.

So obviously you aren't doing too well, there are people who do well in amway, trust me you are not one of them. The people who do well don't waste their time on a forum on behalf of their silly downline who decided to pick an argument with someone more knowledgable than him.

Ya think? And there you are with that omniscience again. Faulty omniscience alas, but I'm sure that's never stopped you before.

They are too busy recording their next tape of "God wants you to be rich" describing some hard lucuk story and how amway helped them overcome it which you will be buying next month as a must have.

Really? Good thing I never have to listen to anything like that, I'm an atheist. That would definitely put me off.

aha of course, why don't you go read cashflow quadrant by one of your gods (kiyosaki). There are "self employed" opportunities then there are "business" opportunities. Amway at best is a self employment opportunity, if you stop working it you will not be making anything for long, people will drop

Really? I actually left australia 6 years ago. Haven't been back since. My amway business there has produce PV and bonuses every single month of that six years.

Sounds like you don't know what you are talking about.

off due to attrition and your income will go down, many high pins do not requalify but still claim the pin later on. How many high pins do you NEVER see at functions? they all sign committment and appearance papers to ensure they are publicly visible,

ROFLMAO!!! And they're all actually members of the Illuminati too I heard .... :roll:

heck it's where they make their money so why shouldn't they keep endorsing events. There is no one "retired" who is in amway, those on high levels work just as hard on the circuit as they do in a normal 9-5.

And that money from a2k just keeps on coming in ..... month after month after month ....

Amway is not a business, don't even kid yourself on it, they can yank your downline anytime they feel like it and they have done it to IBOs many times, you are not incorporated as a business,

Man, you have no idea do you. Most higher pins incorporate their businesses, as any sensible business person would do.

you do not have any kind of agreement with amway you just have a catalogue, a handshake and a general set of rules against which they will yank your employee status.

Really? Then what's the contract I sign? :-O

You are a commission based free agent nothing more. You have less rights than an employee and less benefits than a proper business.

So says the self-appointed internet expert.

One thing I will agree on is a lot of people who join have no people skills, that is one thing the tapes do help with is soft skills and motivation, in most cases only for the amway way. You won't see any motivational stuff or advice from anyone not directly involved with Amway in their training tools.

Really? So what's this book I have here on my desk from Stephen Covey. And this tape here from John Maxwell. Or that seminar in the US with Dr Phil. Or that one in Sydney with Kiyosaki (before he began marketing to MLMs). Or this CD here from Ron Jensen. etc etc etc. Or that packet from Zig Ziglar. Or that book ... or that seminar ... or that cd .... etc etc etc

Don't know what business you're talking about, but it's not the same one I've been a part of for 7 years.

It's going good, I help people everyday, I work when I feel like it and I have been overseas for most of last year on holidays and for my employer. I pretty much love my career. i have just come back from 2 weeks overseas and went for a 2 month holiday over Christmas, in 7 weeks or so I will be going to Europe for 2 weeks and end of the year around Asia again. I have been asked to once again return to the UAE but my European commitments would fall right on that so won't be going there for 3 months like last year. My JOB is a 4 letter word to me, GOOD.

Great, I'm happy for you. I love travelling too. Over the last few years I've spent 2 months living on St Barths. 4 months living in Paris. 2 months in Hong Kong, a few weeks in greece, 3 months in the States, visits to russia, italy, egypt, czech republic, switzerland, sweden, norway, finland and probably some I've forgot.

Now I live in Europe, and am building my amway business in multiple countries here. It's a great business if you love to travel. But I have nothing against jobs for those who want them. I just haven't had one for nearly 7 years and don't want one.

Nothing wrong with thinking like employees, but you'd still take my money and sign me up.

If that's what you wanted to do. I believe the best person to make a decision for you, is you.

You admitted to making money with a businesses outside of Amway so I don't think it's fair to say you make money with Amway or have a high ROI just from that. Don't cloud the issue. To anyone contemplating a real business forget Amway go to a New Enterprise Incentive Scheme (NEIS) course offered for free by the government and get some real training for free.

Why not do both? I have multiple businesses, and more on the way. I love starting and building businesses. Amway is just one of those businesses.

And after you learn to reference come back and show me an independent study to prove this.

I recommend people do their own independent study. For SA8 for example, read the instructions, work out the cost per wash. Do it for whatever you're using now. But been warned, don't take the advertising on the front for "number of washes". I've found that number is often based on lightest load, lightest Ph. The number SA8 advertises is for average load, average Ph.

When talking cheaper they are often comparing to other high price catalogue distributuors not the supermarket or weird configurations not available elsewhere.

Last time I did it was just with Woolworths online. A fair comparison. But I'm sure if you really want to spend time shopping around, you can get cheaper. One maxim of business is to never try to be the cheapest - someone will always beat you. I buy SA8 because it works great, it's environmentally friendly, it leaves virtually no residual, and Amway is one of the few multinationals to have signed agreements with PETA.

Can I buy 2 litre bottles of coke or pepsi through amway? why should I have to buy a case of 24x600ml ones?

So don't. Go buy them at the supermarket if you want. Nothing in the contract says you're not allowed to shop elsewhere as well. Do you buy everything in your life from the same store?

I can get coke at around 99 cents a litre from the supermarket? I follow a balanced diet and exercise no need for pills to make me whole.

Oh ... now don't go there. That PhD I'm considering? It's in nutrition. I know what I'm talking about. Unless you're eating local produced ecological food, then you probably need supplements. And I have enough references to make your eyes bleed.

haha sports stars endorsing products, now you really are showing your level of thinking. They would endorse an enema bag if they got paid for it.

You didn't go read the press release did you? He wasn't approached to endorse the products. His brothers in-laws put him on to it and he tried it. He endorses it because he believes it worked for him - though I assume he gets paid now too.

Yes some people make money on Amway, SOME, most people who join WILL NEVER be making money no matter how hard they work the plan.

Well, that's not true. Our statistics are that less than 1 in 3 registered IBOs even do the recommended work for one month. Only 1 in 500 do it for 12 or more months. IMO it's not coincidental that the number who qualify platinum is about the same. That would indicate that if you do the work, then the results follow.

What we are lousy at doing is getting people started, with over 30% of IBOs never even placing an order after registering. Want to criticise us? Criticise that - it's an abysmal figure.