Citizenship - The Citizenship Testing Discussion Paper (1 Viewer)

[Generator]

Andrew Robb: "Formal Citizenship Test" discussion paper released.

Citizenship Testing Discussion Paper
SMH: Australian citizenship discussion paper

The discussion paper seeks public comments on four key issues:

• Should Australia introduce a formal citizenship test?
• What level of English is required to participate as an Australian citizen?
• How important is knowledge of Australia for Australian citizenship?
• How important is a demonstrated commitment to Australia's way of life and values for those intending to settle permanently in Australia or spend a significant period of time in Australia ?

What do you have to say about the four key issues?

It isn't necessary for anyone to read the discussion paper before replying (it would be best, however, if everyone at least read the Herald article that outlines the key points), but the thread does have a specific focus as such any tangents will be either a) deleted or b) moved to a more appropriate thread.

 

[wheredanton]

The whole *must speak english* thing is simply bigot vote getter. You really can't survive in Australia without some level of English ability. Those who can't speak English at or or very well usually take it upon themselves to learn enough English so they can get around. Any English test should be very basic and limited to being able to communicate in verbally. Anything more and some native Australian's might fail it.

Knowledge of Australia is important for everyone, not just immigrants. If they were to introduce such a test new immigrants into Australia would probably know more about Australian history and government than many Australian born people.

As for 'Australia values and way of life'...what the hell does that mean? The baseline culture is essentially get on with your work and don't break the law. I just get these mental images of trying to get new immigrants to like AFL.

 

[ujuphleg]

Should Australia introduce a formal citizenship test?

Yes, most definatley. At the moment, sitting the "test" they have involves telling the immigration officer who the Prime Minister is. And from what I could gather the day I went for my interview, at least 50% of the people around me didn't have a bloody clue.

What level of English is required to be an Australian citizen?

The same level of English that someone in Year 2 would be able to speak - ie, one should be able to go to the shops and purchase groceries, to use public transport without a hassle and interact with people on an everyday basis.

And wheredanton, it is a HUGE assumption to to say that

ou really can't survive in Australia without some level of English ability. Those who can't speak English at or or very well usually take it upon themselves to learn enough English so they can get around.

There are immigrants who believe that English is inferior and deliberatley don't learn it because they hate it and because they can speak their own language to everyone else around them.

How important is knowledge of Australia for Australian citizenship?

Absolutley vital. How are you supposed to be proud of a country that you don't know about? How are you supposed to be able to bring yourself to defend a country if you've got no clue? How are you supposed to be able to call yourself an Australian if you simply don't care?

Basic knowledge of Australia, its history and its voting processes (because it is compulsory to vote) is critical because without it you cannot have people participating fully in the state.

How important is a demonstrated commitment to Australia's way of life and values for those intending to settle permanently in Australia or spend a significant period of time in Autralia?

This is less important, but the level has to be raised from where it currently stands. It relates to the point above - I can't see how one would give a damn if they didn't know about our history, culture or values.

One would ask, why would you want to become a citizen if you didn't give a damn to start off with and I'd say to those people, that seeking Australian citizenship is not always about wanting to be Australian and it damn well should. There are plenty of people out there who immigrate from less than stable countries and seek citizenship to be guaranteed the protections that so many of you take for granted.

It is my belief that you should want to be Australian first, have an understanding of what it means to be Australian before you actually become Australian.

EDIT: I agree that people over 60 shouldn't be tested as most of these people are elderly relatives brought to Australia to be cared for by family - in essence, to put it harshly they will be dead soon anyway.

But I vehemently disagree with being under 18 and exempt. There were SO many people I knew at school from China/Korea who hated Australia, disliked it immensely but came here for an education, are fully intending on getting citizenship and my elderly Chinese grandparents put them to shame in the English speaking department. Thats just wrong.

 

[iamsickofyear12]

Should Australia introduce a formal citizenship test?
Yes

What level of English is required to be an Australian citizen?
Enough to be able to communicate effectively. Currently this rules out 90% of overseas university students who can't put together one sentence of coherent english.

How important is knowledge of Australia for Australian citizenship?
Very important. If you don't care enough to want to know about Australia then you shouldn't be here.

How important is a demonstrated commitment to Australia's way of life and values for those intending to settle permanently in Australia or spend a significant period of time in Autralia?
This is the most important part. If you come to Australia you should adopt Australian values. I am sick of people coming to Australia and basically taking advantage of the good things we have but otherwise not giving a shit.

I don't expect people to completely give up all their other values but people should not be allowed to move here if they are going to just treat it like a different location where they keep their same values, rather than a community they can integrate into.

 

[*Minka*]

EDIT: I agree that people over 60 shouldn't be tested as most of these people are elderly relatives brought to Australia to be cared for by family - in essence, to put it harshly they will be dead soon anyway.

Indeed. My Great-Grandmother is now 88 - she came with us to Australia ten years ago so we could care for her. She is wheelchair bound and unable to care for herself without assistance, so we were not going to just leave her behind in Croatia in some dingy nursing home or to die. Since she is not working, and not really able to leave the house, she has no way of learning English or about Australia other than what I have told her myself.

 

[HotShot]

Should Australia introduce a formal citizenship test?
I dont think its necessary. Most 'citizens' can speak english. I dont believe in forcing people to do things.

What level of English is required to be an Australian citizen?

Enough to be able to communicate effectively. Currently this rules out 90% of overseas university students who can't put together one sentence of coherent english.

Firstly the majority of overseas students are not citizens of AUstralia. I think people are getting confused on the defintion of citizenship and the present requirements of citizenship in Australia. The form u need it fill out to apply for citizenship is in English for gods sake and if u can read it - then i believe thats enough english.

How important is knowledge of Australia for Australian citizenship?
Not very important. the common public have very little knowledge of australia in terms of its history, economy etc. it would be sad to see an asian who became an australian citizen to know more about australian than true blue australian counterpart. Its not very necessary to know about Australia to be its citizen, all thats required is simple understanding of the general laws and general know how.

How important is a demonstrated commitment to Australia's way of life and values for those intending to settle permanently in Australia or spend a significant period of time in Autralia?

This is the most important part. If you come to Australia you should adopt Australian values. I am sick of people coming to Australia and basically taking advantage of the good things we have but otherwise not giving a shit.

I think as people we should respect people's diverse range in culture. they have every right to come to this country and to share their culure and values as long as they respect laws that made for everyone in AUstralia. a lot of the people that come from overseas, have given a lot to Australia and by shooing them away with these tests, australia as a whole will a lose a lot in all areas. IT is a diverse culture that attracts people in the first place.

I don't expect people to completely give up all their other values but people should not be allowed to move here if they are going to just treat it like a different location where they keep their same values, rather than a community they can integrate into.

its not easy to integrate into a different community that hold drastically different values. especially when they are felt 'not welcome'. it is important to realise the world as whole through globalisation is really beginning to merge. it is now lot easier to move about from one country to another and it is important to adapt to this changing and growing environment (instead of sulking). It is not rite to blame overseas people for Australia's problems. the bulk of Australia's population is primarily aussie and then followed by the poms. The minority are the asians, europeans etc.. and if the minority are causing problems (which i dont believer they are) then it is the government to blame for their lack of committment to help these people settle in. there is nothing lose by receiving with different backgrounds. if the government helped in involving these people into community driven activities rather than secluding them. then you will these people will develop their 'australian values'.

Generator: if you could put up the current citizenship requirements that would be great.

 

[gerhard]

the government shouldnt tell individuals how to live
speak whatever language you like
as long as they understand the laws

 

[katietheskatie]

Any English test should be very basic and limited to being able to communicate in verbally. Anything more and some native Australian's might fail it.

lucky they don't test grammar, or some native australians would really be fucked.

 

[iamsickofyear12]

We let people into this country who are only here to take advantage of the benefits and don't care about Australia at all. They don't consider themselves Australian at all and don't have any interest in integrating.

There are plenty of good people who want to come here and be Australian, not just live here but become a part of the community, and any new tests will not trouble them. They might even benefit from more available spaces if we can prevent less deserving people from taking their spot.

You can't put a price on our Australian identity. We need to protect it and letting people in who just don't care is not helping that. If your values are so different that you can't become one of us then you don't belong here.

 

[yy]

although i think a test is a good idea, but i can see now some coaching colleges spring up preparing for such test, so that people who cannot speak the language can still pass.

and also, just because they can answer questions on democracy etc. doesn't mean they believe in it. but it's still a good start.

 

[ujuphleg]

Should Australia introduce a formal citizenship test?
I dont think its necessary. Most 'citizens' can speak english. I dont believe in forcing people to do things.

I don't think you're getting the point. The first question is not about whether current citizens can speak english, its about whether people who are going to become citizens should sit a test. Theres no mention of English in the term "formal citizenship test"



What level of English is required to be an Australian citizen?

Firstly the majority of overseas students are not citizens of AUstralia.

We didn't say they were. Again, what we're saying is that they WANT to become citizens but they can't speak English properly!! Even to the most basic level!

I think people are getting confused on the defintion of citizenship and the present requirements of citizenship in Australia.

No I think you are confused. This thread is for the discussion of the proposals to be applied to the current citizenship requirements

The form u need it fill out to apply for citizenship is in English for gods sake and if u can read it - then i believe thats enough english.

Is it? I don't think a lot of them fill out their own application I think they get their kids/friends to fill them out for them

It would be sad to see an asian who became an australian citizen to know more about australian than true blue australian counterpart.

Here you are starting to make assumptions about what makes a "proper" Australian. Why is it sad if an "Asian" knows more about Australia?

Its not very necessary to know about Australia to be its citizen, all thats required is simple understanding of the general laws and general know how.

Thats probably true but even that is lacking in some of the current citizens coming through.

I think as people we should respect people's diverse range in culture. they have every right to come to this country and to share their culure and values as long as they respect laws that made for everyone in AUstralia.

Truest and most sensible thing you said so far.

a lot of the people that come from overseas, have given a lot to Australia and by shooing them away with these tests, australia as a whole will a lose a lot in all areas. IT is a diverse culture that attracts people in the first place.

Other countries (such as the USA, UK and Canada) have citizenship tests and that doesn't detract people from wanting to immigrate there does it?

its not easy to integrate into a different community that hold drastically different values.

True, but why the fuck do you bother immigrating in the first place if you didn't want to make a go of embracing the other country?

especially when they are felt 'not welcome'.

I think Australia is far nicer to immigrants than alot of other places.

it is not rite to blame overseas people for Australia's problems. the bulk of Australia's population is primarily aussie and then followed by the poms. The minority are the asians, europeans etc.. and if the minority are causing problems (which i dont believer they are) then it is the government to blame for their lack of committment to help these people settle in.

Thats why they are trying to introduce these measures to help people integrate better.

there is nothing lose by receiving with different backgrounds. if the government helped in involving these people into community driven activities rather than secluding them. then you will these people will develop their 'australian values'.

Yes and by speaking English to a higher level you're helping them do this. Allowing them to remain closeted in their own little ghetto suburbs isn't helping anyone.

You have quite alot of double standards. On the one hand you're saying Let people do what they want to do then you're saying its the governments fault for not doing enough to help people integrate.

By introducing these citizenship measures they will improve upon this but then you're saying that they aren't good because they will drive people away and impede them. You can't have it both ways.

 

[walrusbear]

what is 'our Australian identity' exactly?

it's a very unclear response

 

[HotShot]

I don't think you're getting the point. The first question is not about whether current citizens can speak english, its about whether people who are going to become citizens should sit a test. Theres no mention of English in the term "formal citizenship test"

in background, there is notion of the level of english as being a significant aim of the test, as reflected in the second question.

I didn't say they were. Again, what I wassaying is that they WANT to become citizens but they can't speak English properly!! Even to the most basic level!

Correction! This was reply to:

Currently this rules out 90% of overseas university students who can't put together one sentence of coherent english.

No I think you are confused. This thread is for the discussion of the proposals to be applied to the current citizenship requirements

again u took this out of context, this was a specific reply to somonelse and not to the thread topic in specific.

Is it? I don't think a lot of them fill out their own application I think they get their kids/friends to fill them out for them

its illegal then isnt it. thats out of the equation, but makes u think then they will do these tests legitamely if they cant fill our form legally?

Here you are starting to make assumptions about what makes a "proper" Australian. Why is it sad if an "Asian" knows more about Australia?

it wasnt an assumption - its a situation that may arise and may cause problems in the future.

Other countries (such as the USA, UK and Canada) have citizenship tests and that doesn't detract people from wanting to immigrate there does it?

yeah, their society is so much better than ours!

True, but why the fuck do you bother immigrating in the first place if you didn't want to make a go of embracing the other country?

trust me obviosly it was a lot easir to to move here than to integrate into aussie culture.

I think Australia is far nicer to immigrants than alot of other places.

with 20million people... and bulk in sydney and melbourne..

Yes and by speaking English to a higher level you're helping them do this. Allowing them to remain closeted in their own little ghetto suburbs isn't helping anyone.

as is said its not necessary for them to speak such levels of english to integrate.

You have quite alot of double standards. On the one hand you're saying Let people do what they want to do then you're saying its the governments fault for not doing enough to help people integrate.

ultimately it is the government fault, they are responsible for the way we act towards foreigners, in terms of foreign policies. also they are responsible as they are the ones that set laws and to some extent influence law enforcement.

By introducing these citizenship measures they will improve upon this but then you're saying that they aren't good because they will drive people away and impede them. You can't have it both ways.

i am saying they are not necessary. there better things to do than put a test. this is a ineffective way of solving our problems.

 

[iamsickofyear12]

My example of 90% of overseas university students not being able to speak english properly was just an example. They live in Australia for the majority of the year and some of them do end up applying for citizenship after they have completed their degree. Their level of english is in my opinion below what should be required for an Australia citizen.

 

[*Minka*]

I am an Immigrant from Croatia, so I probably have some different thoughts than most people.


1. To what extend are immigrants expected to integrate into the community? Are we expected to never speak our first languages again once in this country. Poeple constantly pick on the migrant community for speaking our own languages, but younger immigrants like me are often in the company of eldery relatives unable to speak English. Sometimes I walk down the street speaking Croatian to a brother - I don't even realise I am doing it half the time because it was natural to us. Are we migrants expected not to teach our children our first language? I know that if I ever have children, I intend to speak Croatian/Serbian with them so they grow up knowing the language because it is such a skill to speak another language and they can visit the place I came from and read some Croatian books to know about where I came from. I also was a refugee in Italy and Switzerland and would like to pass on the knowledge of Italian, French and German I know.

Am I meant to forget about anything that is Croatian? I am totally Australian now and have really embraced this place to the point that I cheered when we knocked Croatia out of the world cup, but I don't totally forget where I came from. I am Australian, but via Zagreb. Part of being who you are and knowing who you are is knowing where you came from and remebering that. I am still interested in Croatian news, Croatian music and knowing what is happening in the Balkans. I log on and read The Australian and the Sydney Morning Herald online, but I also go and read Vecernji list and Jutarnji list and Politika and Blic and Vecernje Novosti. I am not going to lose the interest with ym home land and the affection I have for it. I can have my heart here, but also have my past with the Balkans. I watch both Croatian and Australian Idol, have both Croatian and Australian CDs, have clothes from both Croatia and Australia. I am Croatian Australia - I have not FORGOTTEN my Croatian heritage and roots, I have ADDED to them by embraacing a new country and embraced both.

1a. I am aware my English is not perfect and I constantly make mistakes, but I do try my best. I probably wouldn't pass a formal test asking about grammer and things like that. but I can get by, with a bit of a Balkan accient and some embarassing stuff ups form time to time, but I can do it. Don't make it so pressure though. I know if I was going for my citizenship again, I'd be scared of passing formal english tests.

2. How are immigrants meant to learn Australian History when it is not really taught in schools? I will admit it - until i did Australian History at University, I knew shit all about Australian History, but could have written you a 20000 word dissertion on Balkan History and told you almost anything you wanted to know about it. If they really want young Australians to be aware of their countries history, they need to teach it. Don't just assume we know it, make us aware of it in our schools. I also think it wouldn't hurt for Australian Born children to be actively taught their hsitory. I am NOT complaning about learning it, just the opposite. I want to see it taught in schools to ALL Australians, reagrdless of where they was born.

3. I guess this comes back to the whole immigrant ghettos thing. We tend to stick together and that was because when I was first here I didn't know anyone and my English wasn't good so it was nice to have people who understood me. Now I have more friends, but the people I was with then are still my friends now. It is not a case of not immigrating, just keeping friends for life.

4. What is Australian Identity? I wouldn't know what to say - not everybody is the same and I don't buy into stereotypes all 'Aussies drunk lots of beer, watch cricket and dress in this horrible blue singlets they don't have in Zagreb'? It is like saying the American Identity is republican bush loving and the Croatian Idenitity is killing every Serb you see on sight. Inaccurate and generalised. Honestly, what would they want me to say? Drawing cartoons of Howard?

5. Indeed. If you want me to like AFL more than Football (note: Soccer) than dream on.

Maybe I learnt too much English. I talks too much.

 

[madwoman]

after reading everyone's points so far...i agree with everyone to a degree

there is a stigma attached to integration...thats because it didnt work. like minka said, you cant expect immigrants to give up their culture to "integrate" into our society. here i should point out that im a leftie pinko, which means i agree with whitlams policy of multiculturalism, which went further than a lot of governments in recognising that Australia is a country of immigrants! all of us! and the second lot of immigrants, ie the first fleet, were mostly crims, so the Aborigines probably win - we should all be integrating into their culture.

i also think that there should be some context attached to this whole citizenship discussion in parliament. in the couple of days surrounding the suggestions, john howard also asked the islamic community to learn english...with the subtext of "terrorists hate the west, therefore they dont speak english, therefore any muslim who doesnt speak english is a terrorist". I know he didnt say that, so dont blast me for that, but i think there is a subconscious link in a lot of people's minds that if people refuse to "integrate" and instead spend time in enclaves of other cultures, that crime festers. this is seen not just with fears of extremist terrorists but the fear of "ethnic" gangs or Lebanese hoodlums. in which case, we dont need to test whether immigrants/people seeking citizenship (which arent necessarily the same thing) speak english/know aus history/have australian values (whatever they are)...we should instead make sure they know the laws of australia and that violent behaviour isnt cool.

so, in conclusion (sorry - is this a long post? its my first one, so yeah), i dont reckon we do need this kind of citizenship testing system. sure US can have one...but its been a united country for longer than us. once federated australia is a bit older, and actually has values rather than a strange perception of simpsons donkey, THEN we can discuss stuff like this.

thankyou and goodnight.

 

[littlewing69]

If someone could define "Australian values" for me without gagging I'd love to hear about it. Howard's hijacking of implicit characteristics of the national psyche into shallow, propagandistic drivel is depressing.

A basic level of English should be a pre-requisite for citizenship. I'm not offended in the slightest when people walk down the street speaking their own native language--God knows I've done it in other countries--but for the sake of national cohesion we need a common language, and every citizen needs to be able to communicate at least at the most basic level in that language. It's not hard to reach a basic level of fluency in a language when you're surrounded by it daily, so this is not a big ask at all.

Knowledge of Australian history is irrelevant. Most Aussies unfortunately don't know much about our history, and most don't really care. I'm torn between the belief that we should teach Australian history and the knowledge that this would no doubt be hijacked by the pollies into some US-style laughable national meta-narrative. Much more important is a knowledge of civics. I've never been taught what rights I possess if approached by police etc. IMHO, civics and a good knowledge of the workings of democracy is far more important to our society which has lately been all too quick to let go of freedoms without much thought. Until we can teach our own populace this stuff, there's not much point testing immigrants on it.

 

[_dhj_]

Total rubbish. You become a citizen of a country, not of a nation and therefore should not be forced to speak the language nor share any "values".

 

[*Minka*]

Until we can teach our own populace this stuff, there's not much point testing immigrants on it.

Thank you. I attended Australian schools from 1998-2005 and was not even taught the most basic of Australian History. The Australian born people in my class were just as clueless as I wwas.

 

[*Minka*]

Total rubbish. You become a citizen of a country, not of a nation and therefore should not be forced to speak the language nor share any "values".

What is the difference between a country and a nation? Sorry for the stupid question, but I am not a native English speaker.