[Dilemma, dilemma: Dentistry, Optometry and Pharmacy] My insights - need advice. (1 Viewer)

[bigheadache99]

Hi everybody, I am a somewhat older, graduate applicant who is intending to embark upon a 2nd career after being chronically underemployed for several years in a rather moribund occupation. Now, a bit on my background - I am quite good at Biology and okay in General Chemistry at Yr12/UniYr 1 level (HD, High C-D). I have never done Physics beyond Yr10 and my maths abilities are hoo-hum.

Anyway, the various choices I am facing are (at various Unis around the nation) - Dentistry, Optometry & Pharmacy (in alpha. order).

Here're my thoughts on studying for the various courses:

1. Dentistry

Pros:
1. Reportedly good return-on-investment ~ good starting salaries
2. Profession is of a high social standing
3. The course structure is more focussed on Biology
4. A form of art, really
5. Self-employment or partnership opportunities abound

Cons:
1. Education is really expensive.
2. Training is long - 5 years
3. BIGGEST CONCERN: Needle-stick injuries are a constant concern and according to research, far more prevalent than expected. Blood-borne diseases like HIV & Hep will usually screw up one's training and even career because of immense restrictions placed upon oneself.


2. Optometry

Pros:
1. Fairly high starting salaries
2. For now, good employment opportunities abound
3. Clean, safe working environment
4. Lobby group strengthening by the year, trying to extend scope of
practice
5. Few schools = less graduates, less competition for jobs
6. Services reimbursible by Medicare = wide apppeal to public
consumption

Cons:
1. Lengthy education (4 - 5 years long whereas in UK - only 3 years+1 ??). Yet not a recognised major health profession in many countries
2. Limited scope of practice - no LASIK-nothing intrusive, few procedures, fewer drugs usable, prescription not PBS meaning patients rather see GPs
3. Politically motivated competition from lesser-trained but AMA-backed orthoptists who claim to be able to do almost the same thing here
4. The course requires a lot of very dry Maths & Physics?? (Reader: please confirm)
5. Economy of scale/bulk-buying power: hard to compete against big-chains, e.g. OPSM? Independent stores & smaller groups generally don't do well these days
6. BIGGEST CONCERN: A majority of an optometrist's income seems to be derived from selling spectacles/optical aids (80% sales/20% services or something) - a pseudo clinical mathematician salesman than health professional?


3. Pharmacy
Pros:
1. Above average starting salaries (after pre-reg)
2. Profession is of a high social standing
3. The training has far more medical aspects now
4. Reportedly high employment rates: (95%-99%)

Cons:
1. Lots, lots & lots of organic chem (Reader: please confirm)
2. Clinical/medical training is reportedly underutilised (turf wars with GPs)
3. Supermarket threats - commodisation of the profession+economy of scale
4. Self-employment harder & harder. Buying a (small) pharmacy can cost over $500K.
5. BIGGEST CONCERN: Fast increasing number of Pharmacy schools means intensifying competition for jobs

Which path should I take? At my age, I can ill afford to make a wrong 2nd career choice. Therefore, I would appreciate some insight and advice from knowleadgable sources with due consideration of what I described in the above. Oh yes, Medicine is not an option, unfortunately.

Thanks for reading.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

the needlestick thing is still pretty rare..
and with the low levels of HIV.. i wouldnt be worried

dentistry is only 5 yrs if ure a yr 12 leaver.. who dun have a background in biology

for grads u can goto Usyd dentistry for 4 yrs..
it depends on dexterity too.. and rates of arthritis is high..

 

[bigheadache99]

the needlestick thing is still pretty rare..
and with the low levels of HIV.. i wouldnt be worried

dentistry is only 5 yrs if ure a yr 12 leaver.. who dun have a background in biology

for grads u can goto Usyd dentistry for 4 yrs..
it depends on dexterity too.. and rates of arthritis is high..

No, didn't do or plan to go with the GAMSAT route. Besides, it is now a choice between available offers.

Another thing: HIV infection rates have been steadily rising among certain segments of our community. Hep C is as well. These are real career breakers and a major disincentive as I have family to take care of and all.

 

[Spon888]

I've been researching such pros and cons throughout the year so I myself could make such a decision, since Medicine wasn't really on the cards for me too. Although I only researched Optom and Dent, not Pharm. Also keep in mind that all the info I found is as a Year 12 student surfing through forums/internet and talking with practicing dentists/optometrists.

Dentistry
Pros: Well you pretty much said it all here, also not to mention that there is a serious shortage of dentists in aus...i don't think the media gives it enough recognition and there simply arent a lot of places at university, although demand is very high.
From talking with a few dentists, its a very good lifestyle simply because financially you will be set for the rest of your life. Also there are many many options available such as specialisation, research and teaching.

Cons: I haven't come across needle stick worries, where have you heard this from? Also, what kind of situations would you be put in potential danger of needle stick injuries?
Also, if you've been looking into optom/dent/pharm i don't think length of education should be a worry, because it should be expected if you want to go into such fields.

Optometry
I've talked to a few optoms, from completely different ends of the spectrum. One is a small time optometrist who doesn't make a lot, most of his assets comes from owning his own shop. He says that medicare actually works against profits, because you can get glasses for around $30, when normally glasses would normally go from $120+ and even up to $400+. Also, being a practicing optometrist will require a high degree of retail ability, which works against being a health professional. He admitted most of his income came from selling glasses.
I also questioned him on his thoughts about the Opthamologist/Orthoptist combination who together can basically do everything that an Optometrist does and then some. But he told me you have to remember Optometry is a Science degree, not really a part of the medical field.

Another optometrist I talked to was a polar opposite, and is running a very successful business. They have no regrets about being Optometry and are very happy with what they are doing.

Another one is an Associate Lecturer at UNSW. He's doing research into sports vision, and then I think he'll go on to be a Lecturer. So thats also another option Optometry opens up, although he does it because he loves it. So I recommend picking an area that most appeals to you because of the work thats involved, other factors including money should be secondary considerations.

So overall Optom is a great profession if you like that area, and it really depends on your own ability+luck to make your own way through the field.

And yes the University Course requires a lot of Maths/Physics/Chem in the first and second year. Clinical practice only comes in at 3rd year in UNSW, but you have to realise its a Science degree, and thus requires you to learn the basics of maths/phys/chem.

So thats what I found out, hope its useful, but in the end I cannot stress how important it is to do what you enjoy. It may sound cliched, and it actually is, but success is built on happiness.

 

[je2obrien]

3. Pharmacy
Pros:
1. Above average starting salaries (after pre-reg)
2. Profession is of a high social standing
3. The training has far more medical aspects now
4. Reportedly high employment rates: (95%-99%)

Cons:
1. Lots, lots & lots of organic chem (Reader: please confirm)
2. Clinical/medical training is reportedly underutilised (turf wars with GPs)
3. Supermarket threats - commodisation of the profession+economy of scale
4. Self-employment harder & harder. Buying a (small) pharmacy can cost over $500K.
5. BIGGEST CONCERN: Fast increasing number of Pharmacy schools means intensifying competition for jobs

With respect to con 3, I thought the pharmacy guild/fed govt said that it would not allow supermarket pharmacies within the next ten years (position being reviewed then)?

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

oh ok..
yes they are.. amongst males that have sex with males and females 18-35... Iv drug users and usually low socioeconomic too.. given the state of public dentistry... i realli doubt ull be treating them as much as you think

Hep C diagnosis is increasing this is in impart due to the incubation period ending.. for alot of ppl that tried IV drugs in the early 80's...

i just want to tell you that those are valid fears but they rarely happen.. in medicine and nursing these are more likely to occur and yet we know ppl dun contract it as readily through the needle.. safety protocol if followed reduces incidences of needlestick

personally I am convinced that you dun realli want any thing to do with needles..
here is a british dental study... it outlines the epidemiology.. their rates are similar if not higher than australia.
http://www.nature.com/bdj/journal/v190/n12/full/4801064a.html

nothing is without risk.. is how i feel

optometry pays well too.. but they are cutting student numbers from wat i heard d/t over saturation of them

pharmacy.. is good too... given that they are the only one that can own a chemist under govt legislation.. good course... heavy in chem.. but ive never realli seen it..
pharm guild is very influential... compared to say AMA ... they have problems cos the UK and US govt were cracking down on their eqv in their respective countries for the perceived monopoly..

the last 2 have growing influence in patient management roles compared to the times of old... very diverse career choice.. u can also be a pharmaceutical researcher.

 

[bigheadache99]

oh ok..
yes they are.. amongst males that have sex with males and females 18-35... Iv drug users and usually low socioeconomic too.. given the state of public dentistry... i realli doubt ull be treating them as much as you think

On the flip side, you don't get to choose who you treat as a student.

personally I am convinced that you dun realli want any thing to do with needles..
here is a british dental study... it outlines the epidemiology.. their rates are similar if not higher than australia. nothing is without risk.. is how i feel

Obviously. Stepping out of your home to go to work doesn't always mean you would be coming back. Life is that risky.

Perhaps, I was looking to quantify the risks somehow. I cannot imagine having invested all the time, money and effort to study Dentistry only to get my ambitions dashed due to cross-infections. The HCW infection control policy is rather harsh towards dentists/dental students.

I must concede that I am partial towards Dentistry though I have to consider the 5 years of worrying about needle-stick injuries screwing up my education. That also reminds me - dental students/dentists must practice superduper safe sex if hanky-pankying about is a hobby. Disclaimer: not a problem for me though.

Lastly, how much Maths & Physics are required for Optometry? I would appreciate links to reference material.

With respect to con 3, I thought the pharmacy guild/fed govt said that it would not allow supermarket pharmacies within the next ten years (position being reviewed then)?

I assure you that the supermarkets are finding ways around it. As I understand, the "grandfathering" scheme is a backdoor entry currently utilised by Coles through PharmacyDirect. When there is a will, there is a way. The Guild's cause is not helped by the proliferation of super chemist discounters, either.

Pharmacy looks like a profession headed for vast oversupply, given the number of Schools and shrinking of the workforce when supermarkets come in. The only hope is that Pharmacists diversify outside the dispensary and take on cognitive health services and GP-like roles.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

Pharmacy looks like a profession headed for vast oversupply, given the number of Schools and shrinking of the workforce when supermarkets come in. The only hope is that Pharmacists diversify outside the dispensary and take on cognitive health services and GP-like roles.

they wont.. unless they want to train lik a GP... NP are barely allowed and they train lik crazy..

pharmacist pay is also too high for that...
they arent viable as a GP-type too except for the things they currently test like BPs and sugar levels..
there is also too much conflict of interest.. the prescriber-practitioner system exists as a double checking mechanism..

 

[bigheadache99]

they wont.. unless they want to train lik a GP... NP are barely allowed and they train lik crazy..

pharmacist pay is also too high for that...
they arent viable as a GP-type too except for the things they currently test like BPs and sugar levels..
there is also too much conflict of interest.. the prescriber-practitioner system exists as a double checking mechanism..

Indeed. Not that I am an advocate for role substitution, still you have to appreciate the predicament and agree that unless the pharmacist's role extends beyond dispensing soon, the profession will be in deep decline in status and prospects, given the intention of big business when it finally enters pharmacy.

Maybe I am being naive but it seems to me that it is in the interests of the pharmacists and GPs to maintain the present status-quo and hinder the entry of supermarkets into pharmacy, indefinitely. It is not hard to observe that the only professional roles that pharmacists would evolve into once pharmacy is invaded by big business, would be ones that cut deeply into GP turf - it is an open secret. Thus, it is due to my dislike for hardcore chemistry and the above reason that I find myself undecided on the Pharmacy offer.

 

[vodkacrumble]

i think your concerns for needlestick injuries are too high.

as a nurse i'm dealing with more injections and contaminated waste, and being careful plays a big part. good technique and proper disposal will ensure you're staying fairly safe. i have spiked myself with an (unused) syringe of insulin when i was recapping the syringe and the needle went through the cap, but that is technically against policy so it's my fault and could've been avoided (note: i would NEVER recap a used syringe).

also, i would say that nurses in a public hospital will deal with many more 'high-risk' patients than dentists in private practice (anyone can rock up to a hospital under medicare, not everyone can afford to go to the dentist).


base your decision around lifestyle and what would interest you most. don't always look at the dollar amount. if you're interested in something, you'll do better at it.

 

[kimmeh]

Thought about a Master of Pharmacy? Its only 2 years + 1 registrative year, or was that what you were referring to ? =/

Needlestick injuries? i think youd have to be pretty unorganised to get pricked. i havent at all had any needle related injuries in all my animal handling experience, including the crazy animals i have to hold with one hand and have to prick them with the other. As long as you dont leave them lying around uncapped, respect that they are potentially dangerous and just use common sense then it shouldnt happen.

 

[lala2]

I agree with the others so far that your concern of needlestick injuries is rather too high. You sound as though you'd rather take Dentistry than the other two options, so why not? I'd also think it's a waste if you've received a good offer for a good course (Dentistry) and you rejected it only because of concern of needlestick injuries. Just be careful and use your common sense. Also, not everyone can go see a dentist due to the consultation costs, but people can just walk into a GP practice or a hospital, so your relative risk there is rather low. I would say that most people who are likely to be HIV-infected, Hep C-infected and what not would usually be of a lower socio-economic class, and wouldn't think about just maintaing "teeth" either, even if they had the financial resources for it.

 

[redorangeish]

hi bigheadache. as i see it, your main concerns at this time are financial security and return on investment. truisms like "just do what you enjoy and not worry about the money" probably don't hold so true anymore yeah

being a somewhat older student, i think i share similar concerns. if i was in your shoes, i'd pick dentistry. that way, it's a subject you're comfortable with(bio) and your finances are secure - a big load off your mind. which actually allows you to start enjoying what you do instead of worrying about bringing home the bacon.

also, not having to worry about your next paycheck lets you focus on the job at hand, and that way, you're less likely to prick yourself.

 

[salsydney]

i agree with everyone who has said your concern for needle stick injuries is too high.. i work as a dental assistant, and the dentists i work for are very careful with needles.. its all about maintaining a safe working environment... make sure you use a careful handling procedure, and double glove for high risk situations (e.g. surgical extractions), and we're yet to have any issues... the dentists i work for have been working for over 20 yrs, and have yet to run into any issues..

 

[hobbit]

Hi, I'm a current UG Pharm student in the middle of exams......and all I have to add is, if you choose pharm, Organic chem will kill you to the end.
Also, Pharmacy also offers other pathways eg. industry and hospital jobs

 

[mixt]

first off, sorry for the bump

So thats also another option Optometry opens up, although he does it because he loves it. So I recommend picking an area that most appeals to you because of the work thats involved, other factors including money should be secondary considerations

So thats what I found out, hope its useful, but in the end I cannot stress how important it is to do what you enjoy. It may sound cliched, and it actually is, but success is built on happiness.

true true, shouldnt everyone be looking for what they enjoy? i personally dislike everyone who just rush into med/dentistry just for the $$$, and yeah i suppose it is one of the good points of NSW Gov. gradually phasing out undergraduate medicine (although it means if u want to become specialist in med, its going to take you at least 3yrs + 6 + 4 = 13 yrs at uni)

i suppose i should go ask abt jobs, uni students and assess the bad points abt the courses im gonna study at uni too...

 

[bigheadache99]

true true, shouldnt everyone be looking for what they enjoy? i personally dislike everyone who just rush into med/dentistry just for the $$$

mixt, with the "WorkChoices" gambit, one can only hope folks like you'll grow up quickly enough to realise the vacuousness of your statement.

Don't kid yourself, kid. With a family to support, a mortgage to pay and having to put food on the table quite consistently, after several different careers later, I assure you that in the end, it's always about the money.

Unless you're a survivalist hermit.

 

[waltac]

222

 

[ZZZZZZ]

Hi, I'm a current UG Pharm student in the middle of exams......and all I have to add is, if you choose pharm, Organic chem will kill you to the end.
Also, Pharmacy also offers other pathways eg. industry and hospital jobs

I on the other hand am doing Med science, but i'm planning to transfer to Pharmacy or if that doesn't work out, do Pharmaceutical science instead. Does anyone know more abt the Master of Pharmacy course?

 

[Goodbye]

Well based on your responses and the pro/con list ... Dentisty it is. That and the fact the are no UG Dentisty courses in NSW.

For Pharmac- I have always been under the impression its more Biochem then Organic chem though.