Does God exist? (2 Viewers)

[*yooneek*]

What? You really think that is 'easier'? It becomes a much more complicated ball game when nothing is truely right and wrong.



Yea but that's just stupid, you believe because you believe... congratulations - that's not an answer.

look i cant give you the answer set in stone that you are looking for... sorry

 

[StGeorgeDragons]

see i believe in God, this thread has made me think, why do i believe in God. The truth is there is no answer and its got me thinking. Im sure is the case with all christians, and i think this is a great link between all people. We all have to find our true believes.

The reasons u give for people believing in God, are irrelevent. You cant believe in God just because u want something. This has lead me to believe, simply believing in God is a lifelong journey, possibly one of the reasons of life.

However, maybe it is the need for God, that leads us to believe in him in some spiritual way instead of physical. There may be a time in life when believing in God is the only way, and this could make you realise. This hasnt happened to us all yet.

Is there anyone out there who can personally say how they believe in God?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The reasons u give for people believing in God, are irrelevent. You cant believe in God just because u want something. This has lead me to believe, simply believing in God is a lifelong journey, possibly one of the reasons of life.

What so you don't believe that people believe in things just because that's their pre-concieved belief? You don't believe that the reason they don't bother questioning it properly might be because the belief its self gives them comfort?

I don't understand where you find the problem.

 

[StGeorgeDragons]

What so you don't believe that people believe in things just because that's their pre-concieved belief? You don't believe that the reason they don't bother questioning it properly might be because the belief its self gives them comfort?

I don't understand where you find the problem.

Thats not a true belief, u even say urself, its not answer saying i believe because i believe. To believe in something u need evidence, but obviously God is different. God is not a thing of this world.

maybe ur right, people dont bother questioning. However these people dont have true faith. If you think you have full faith, then your not gonna bother searching for God. So you have to cosider why you believe in God. The answer might take a lifetime.

My point is also athiests are on the same journey as religious people. However it would be a really bad thing to hear an athiest say, God cannot exist.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Thats not a true belief, u even say urself, its not answer saying i believe because i believe. To believe in something u need evidence, but obviously God is different. God is not a thing of this world.

Oh no, 'I believe because I belief' is a belief based on 'faith' (basically nothing). It's not a real logical reason to believe tho.

maybe ur right, people dont bother questioning. However these people dont have true faith. If you think you have full faith, then your not gonna bother searching for God. So you have to cosider why you believe in God. The answer might take a lifetime.

Why not just.. not believe in God and REALLY step out of the box and question life?

My point is also athiests are on the same journey as religious people. However it would be a really bad thing to hear an athiest say, God cannot exist.

The possibility of the christian God, as most christians I gather imagine it... existing... is so remote that I'm willing to dismiss it out of hand. It requires supernatural abilities which are beyond the realm of our universe (as we know it). There is more of a possibility that you are really just a brain in a science experiment, and not 'really' alive... than there is that the christian diety exists.

 

[StGeorgeDragons]

The possibility of the christian God, as most christians I gather imagine it... existing... is so remote that I'm willing to dismiss it out of hand. It requires supernatural abilities which are beyond the realm of our universe (as we know it). There is more of a possibility that you are really just a brain in a science experiment, and not 'really' alive... than there is that the christian diety exists.

but that links to my thread before, we know nothing about the universe. God obviously doesnt follow the laws of science this generation believes in. We dont know these laws are correct, there have been scientific laws in the past which have been ruled incorrect. We will continue to uncover features of the universe we once considered impossible.

As i said, God isnt part of the world anyway. God exists in Heaven. You cannot just say God cant exist because its impossible in this world, even though is seems ridiculous to you, you dont know that there may be other worlds. This is actually thinking realistically.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

but that links to my thread before, we know nothing about the universe. God obviously doesnt follow the laws of science this generation believes in. We dont know these laws are correct, there have been scientific laws in the past which have been ruled incorrect. We will continue to uncover features of the universe we once considered impossible.

As i said, God isnt part of the world anyway. God exists in Heaven. You cannot just say God cant exist because its impossible in this world, even though is seems ridiculous to you, you dont know that there may be other worlds. This is actually thinking realistically.

Ok... you are partially right. That is an agnostic world-view, that it is impossible to know truth for certain.

Anyway, I wasn't saying that God can't exist... of course anything is possible, but I'm just saying that it's extremely unlikely, we are talking about unlikely up there in the terms of 'do you really exist?' type questions....

 

[*yooneek*]

i have an idea...
"Evidence That Demands A Verdict"
by Josh McDowell...

give it a serious read-

Part I addresses the reliability of the Bible;
Part II offers historical evidence and supporting attestations for Jesus' claim to be God;
Part III addresses "radical Christian criticism" of the Bible;
Part IV is devoted to quelling the voice of numerous skeptics, including "a defense for the existence of miracles" and "answers to divergent worldviews."

 

[gerhard]

but that links to my thread before, we know nothing about the universe. God obviously doesnt follow the laws of science this generation believes in. We dont know these laws are correct, there have been scientific laws in the past which have been ruled incorrect. We will continue to uncover features of the universe we once considered impossible.

As i said, God isnt part of the world anyway. God exists in Heaven. You cannot just say God cant exist because its impossible in this world, even though is seems ridiculous to you, you dont know that there may be other worlds. This is actually thinking realistically.

we have no evidence of god existing. this does not mean that 100% god does not exist, but it gives us no reason to believe in his existance.

its just the same thing thats been brought up before. you and i dont believe in flying dolphins that speak french because we have no evidence of them. now our understanding of the world might be wrong and flying dolphins that speak french may exist, but do you believe in flying dolphins that speak french? no, because we have no evidence.

really, the evidence of gods existance is the same as the evidence of any other magical creature.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yea but I can supply a tonne of atheist books too... I don't really like recommending books or whatever, as interesting as they might be. Theists are more than welcomed to post up the arguments from the book/articles/whatever up here tho.

 

[gerhard]

i have an idea...
"Evidence That Demands A Verdict"
by Josh McDowell...

give it a serious read-

Part I addresses the reliability of the Bible;
Part II offers historical evidence and supporting attestations for Jesus' claim to be God;
Part III addresses "radical Christian criticism" of the Bible;
Part IV is devoted to quelling the voice of numerous skeptics, including "a defense for the existence of miracles" and "answers to divergent worldviews."

christians seem to have alot of trouble with the faith/reason concept. Alot of times christians are like, 'here is proof that my god exists and no other do', and alot of the time they are like 'god is about faith, if you could prove it was true then there would be no point as every person would be christian'.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yea I find it kinda interesting too. Christians come here and attempt to present their case logically, then claim that it's pointless to do so and that you actually shouldn't attempt to justify it logically..

Then why do you actually do it? Just shut up and believe, don't bother with the rest of us... just keep believing. I mean, your 'faith' is strong enough - right?

 

[*yooneek*]

oh ok...regarding the book... i shall go read it then and give you what it's got as i go... i love the archaeological stuff!

goodnight <3

 

[Bookie]

theres no proof unless someone had a video camera on the scene.

god is something which we little mortals arent meant to understand, and yes i believe god exists. but aimlessly arguing about god is stupid. its a topic that shouldnt be touched. you should believe what you believe then fuck off.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

If you do not wish to participate in this thread, then you do not have to.

However, please leave those who do enjoy discussion of such topics in peace.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Can you really ever see this thread being worn out? There is no answer to this question or the worlds problems would be solved.

Personally I just think it's the ultimate debate question and a great way to practice some reasoning skills

 

[StGeorgeDragons]

we have no evidence of god existing. this does not mean that 100% god does not exist, but it gives us no reason to believe in his existance.

its just the same thing thats been brought up before. you and i dont believe in flying dolphins that speak french because we have no evidence of them. now our understanding of the world might be wrong and flying dolphins that speak french may exist, but do you believe in flying dolphins that speak french? no, because we have no evidence.

really, the evidence of gods existance is the same as the evidence of any other magical creature.

yeh i totally agree with u, i never said once u should believe for no reason. All im saying is u cant rule out God, which leaves the opening for u to believe, maybe one day someone who doesnt believe will believe.

Religious people dont just believe in God because there told to, or are wanting more meaning to life. Probably, a combination of events occur in ones life which brings them closer to God, if they wish to find him.

At the end of the day its all a mystery, for everyone.

Theres no way you can collectively show God exists, its an inidividual thing and a spiritual thing.

 

[transcendent]

So there are those conspiracy theorists who believe the pyramids where the concepts of aliens. Anyone watch 'Chariots Of The Gods'? There are people convinced that they have met aliens, live in awe or fear of them. Are they in fact those who have been the lucky few who have been invited to met these higher beings or are they nut cases who belong in a mental institute? What makes believing in aliens any more justifiable then believing in God? To me they are the same thing, cause you can't say that aliens didn't create the Earth as they made be far more advanced than our civilisation. Who's to say that pagan rituals or witchcraft doesn't work? I works in the minds of the believers. How about the cultural practises of forgotten civilisations locked in the middle of jungles still practising sacrificial offers of young virgins to the Gods? To them it is what they believe in and to them it works. There's alot to be said about belief.

 

[Wilmo]

The gospel is very interesting. 4 versions of the same story. Why would we need this? we could have one story which can include everything in it.
Im sure there is 4 versions for a reason. Has anyone out there come up with a reason. The 4 versions show some evidence to me of the life of Jesus, as it is documented by 4 men, we can see there stories are different, but in the end they all show Jesus' life and give the same message.

Having four different versions adds to the credability. Having one version, one could say it was just made up by a few people who wanted to invent a story. But because 4 different people with different backgrounds have written pretty much the same things, then it highlights a standard belief. It's not just four friends who got together and wrote their own versions.

When we say 'theist', we typically mean someone who believes in God, so 'theist' includes Christians and Muslims (for arguments sake). Now in your response you talked about how God guides his believers through the spirit.

Although you did address how differing beliefs could exist, in doing that you somewhat 'equalised' the probability of Christians reading from the bible and being right with the 'chance' that the Muslims reading from the Quran are right. In effect, for me to believe you, I would also have to be prepared to believe the Muslims because they also claim to be 'guided by god'.

Now, given that there are some factions of Islam that would kill women who have been raped (this might be an extremist example, but it's still valid because they claim to be 'guided by god'), it comes from the same authority that you have. Why should I believe what you believe and NOT what they believe?

At the moment, I am afraid I cannot answer that question for you. That is because I do not know what the basic Islamic thought is on how they are guided by God.

BUT by no means does that mean I will not try to answer your question. But it does mean I will have to do more research before I start. No point in shooting off stuff off the top of my head

So yeah. Hopefully this afternoon I will be able to get back to you.


Edit:

This is what I found at www.shia.org/fundamental.html, where it explains the fundamental muslim beliefs (my Islamic pamphlets conveniently left out the section on how muslims understand the Qur'an )

Imamat - (Guidance) - Belief in the divinely appointed leadership after the death of the Holy Prophet (PBUH&HF) to protect and guide mankind with the revealed Truth, the Holy Qur'an and the true practices of the Holy Prophet himself. The roles of these leaders is an integral part in the protection of all the Messengers and their divine Messages. The Almighty Allah appointed through the Holy Prophet himself, twelve Guides (Imams) to protect mankind from misrepresenting and misinterpreting the Truth. Belief in this is most important in Islam and no doubts about their positions should be allowed. They are indeed sinless (ma'soom) and perfect in the highest sense of the word. The Imams have direct knowledge from God, and their verdict is the verdict of God. After the Holy Prophet, only they can interpret and guide mankind in every aspect of life and death and all believers must acquire guidance from them or else they will certainly be lost. They do NOT bring any new laws nor do they ever innovate their own laws. They always exempliy and elucidate the practical (Sunnah) and the written (the Holy Qur'an). It is also important to note that they NEVER disagree with each other in their manners and duties nor in their representations of the Divine Laws. They are from the best and the most blessed and purified lineage of the last Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUT) and their names are as follows: (1) Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin and son-in-law of the Holy Prophet who called him his only brother in this world and in the next, (2) Imam Hasan son of Ali, (3) Imam Husain son of Ali, (4) Imam Ali son of Husain, (5) Imam Muhammad son of Ali, (6) Imam Ja'far son of Muhammad, (7) Imam Musa son of Ja'far, (8) Imam Ali son of Musa, (9) Imam Muhammad son of Ali, (10) Imam Ali son of Muhammad, (11) Imam Hasan son of Ali, and the last and living Imam Muhammad son of Hasan, the establisher of the Truth till the end of this world (PBUT). There is no successor to the Twelfth Holy Imam Muhammad ibnul Hassan (PBUH) and he is LIVING today but is in occultation and appears only to those who are most in need and to those who are most virtuous and pious. By the Command of Allah, he will reappear to all when he will establish true justice on earth and will rule mankind compassionately with utmost perfection as is the Will of the Almighty Allah. He will abolish the evil establishments on earth and mankind will live under true guidance as should have been many centuries ago!

Ok... The first part that got me about that: Allah appointed men through another man to keep people from misinterpreting and misrepresenting what is said in the Qur'an. That gets me thinking "How does a man stop someone from misrepresenting God? Men do not understand God"

Then it tries to answer that question by saying these Imams are "sinless and perfect in the highest sense of the word". Then I think how on earth does someone become sinless and perfect? I have not met one person who could stand up to the claim of being perfect, so how do i know these people werent just really good?

How can I not have doubts about the position of these people when it's fundamental to believe that they were perfect. And not just one perfect person, but 12 of them. And for me to be a good muslim i have to accept their perfection and have them guide me.

The next thing i found it dificult to understand: All the Imams but one are from the family of the Holy Prophet. My question is this: Do I pretty much need to be related by blood or marriage to this Holy Prophet in order to be perfect?


My intent with what I just said is not to attack the muslim beliefs, but I was wondering what muslims believe about being guided by God.

As I said earlier, Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit (who is God) in order to interpret God's message. We also believe that Jesus, who was fully man and fully God, is the only person who is sinless and perfect.

It appears to me that the muslim belief is Alah appointed perfect men (who coincidently are related to the Holy Prophet in some way) to be the only ones capable of interpreting the Qur'an. And one cannot be a muslim if they doubt the position of these men.


So in answer to Volition's question - I would say when someone is guided by the Holy Spirit, then they are guided by God. But if it is necessary to go to a man, even a "perfect" man, to be guided by God... then something might be a little off with that.

That's where my quirble lies. Why go to men to get guidance from God when we can go to God himself? Even men with the best intentions are not God and will therefore be less capable of offering God's guidance.

 

[volition]

As I said earlier, Christians are guided by the Holy Spirit (who is God) in order to interpret God's message. We also believe that Jesus, who was fully man and fully God, is the only person who is sinless and perfect.

It appears to me that the muslim belief is Alah appointed perfect men (who coincidently are related to the Holy Prophet in some way) to be the only ones capable of interpreting the Qur'an. And one cannot be a muslim if they doubt the position of these men.

So in answer to Volition's question - I would say when someone is guided by the Holy Spirit, then they are guided by God. But if it is necessary to go to a man, even a "perfect" man, to be guided by God... then something might be a little off with that.

It looks an awful lot like you're trying to make it look like Jesus is 'better' than these so called 'perfect imams'.

See, I don't have to actually accept that Jesus WAS the son of God, even if I accept that Jesus existed. So, really, to me, Jesus could just be 'any other guy claiming to be guided by god', which brings me back to what I was saying earlier. Why believe Jesus and not the 12 imams? They still act based from the 'same authority' (at least from our perspective, even if one of them is 'better' than the other, we have no way of knowing)

That's where my quirble lies. Why go to men to get guidance from God when we can go to God himself? Even men with the best intentions are not God and will therefore be less capable of offering God's guidance.

My point here might not be as strong, but in at least some branches of Christianity, we go to priests for guidance don't we? Priests are human just like us, and yet they are able to 'forgive us' for our sins through confession.

What do you mean when you say 'we can go to God himself' for guidance? Have you ever heard God himself speak to you? What made you sure it was God?