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Does God exist? (127 Viewers)

do you believe in god?


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ad infinitum

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Quanitify and qualify?

And on Tolle... I really think he misunderstood the point of Cogito ergo sum. It's not to do with Identity and being. It's about existing. The singular quantifiable proof that you exist is justified by your thoughts... seperating them makes no difference. You can't really seperate yourself from your thoughts. Because you're thinking about your thoughts then aren't you.

Just as in Buddhism, enlightenment is actually impossible... because you can never be desireless due to the desire to BE desireless.
Buddhism says that though meditation one can invoke a state of mind in which the sense of self- of subject/object dualism in perception and cognition- is made to vanish....
 

Aquawhite

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It's interesting, but as the child says: Darkness does not exist... for it is the absence of light. Well is that not the definition of darkness? Nice attempt to make religion seem real, but kinda fails.
 

louy

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That child is suppose to be Albert Einstein, and he was quoted to have actually said that.

I think it is a true event, I think I heard it sometime back, ages ago
 

trickx

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That child is suppose to be Albert Einstein, and he was quoted to have actually said that.

I think it is a true event, I think I heard it sometime back, ages ago
Yet they fail to mention that he believed in a Spinozan God. Far from any theistic God. Einstein was an agnostic ffs. How can you use that as a basis for teaching religion? Epic fail.
 

Smile_Time351

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Quanitify and qualify?

And on Tolle... I really think he misunderstood the point of Cogito ergo sum. It's not to do with Identity and being. It's about existing. The singular quantifiable proof that you exist is justified by your thoughts... seperating them makes no difference. You can't really seperate yourself from your thoughts. Because you're thinking about your thoughts then aren't you.

Just as in Buddhism, enlightenment is actually impossible... because you can never be desireless due to the desire to BE desireless.
Personally I think Descartes was taking slightly too simplistic an argument here, in taking the nature of thought to be co-dependent on existence. Essentially placing too much stock in the nature of the thinker. By definition the pre-requisites attached for one to in fact exist are slightly broader than this. One does not exist simply because one thinks that one does. Self-evident though it may seem. The key way to dispel this does in fact come about from Buddhism, which Teclis (great name BTW...but High Elves are very feminine) provided a great, although not entirely holistic definition for:

None of us in fact exist. Existence is an illusion, and any thought thereof even more so. The statement "You do not exist" certainly contains a logical fallacy therein, but cannot be disproved if said with enough conviction. The philosophers amongst us might label this solipsism, but that's not entirely it either, more collective solipsism. Orwell described it best in 1984. If I believe the sky is red, and everyone else believes the sky is red as well, no matter how hard a single person might protest that it is blue, they are wrong.
Cogito Ergo Sum can thus be dispelled, given sufficient weight of counter-thought. Ridiculous? Welcome to metaphysics ladies and gents... Feel free to provide a counter-theory, I'm not saying this is definitive, only a distinct possibility.
 

KFunk

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Someone just randomly sent this to me. What do you guys think ?

YouTube - "Does God exist?" -- Social campaign on education (TV commerc
It's pretty wild that this exists(?) as a social campaign. It's all rhetoric of course. Just as proofs against god typically only target a particular conception, or set of conceptions, of god, the argument in the advertisement only targets one such argument which itself targets a certain conception of god (i.e. typically an Abrahamic-ish god which is benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient). The add does nothing to demonstrate a positive knowledge claim in favor of religion - it is only a negative attack on a specific disproof.

Nonetheless, it is very interesting socially.
 

mirakon

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Initially, let us assume that the universe was infinitely old and an infinite regression or cyclical in nature. However, by the laws of entropy (the second law of thermodynamics), where the amount of energy in a system that is available to lose work is decreasing, this means that at some point the usable energy in the universe would have been depleted. However this is evidently not the case, hence a contradiction occurs.
Hitherto it is evident therefore that at some point, the universe had a beginning. Thus the universe was caused, particularly since it is governed by time.
This force, by definition of a force which is an interaction between objects, must have been caused by an Object. Although some can claim that this argument is contradictory since this Object in the nature of applying a force must apply it to something else, hence proving God is not one, they fail to realise that something can apply a force to oneself. Hence a singular Object can exist. Also, supposing that two objects did exist, as one and only one of the Objects applied a force to the other object, it created the Universe with this force and hence only one Object could have possibly created the universe.
Via causality, as this Object was present before the Universe (the Universe being defined as what encompasses time and space), the Object was not governed by time and space and as causality is a result of time, this Object does not need to be caused or created by anything else.
It is deduced therefore that the Object that initiated the force that created the Universe was uncaused. By definition it created the universe and since it created all matter, it can destroy all matter and is hence omnipotent.
As consciousness must also have been created by the Object, once again by definition as we proved earlier the Object created everything, the Object must be the root of consciousness. Consciousness is the root of knowledge. Thus the Object created all knowledge and is hence omniscient.
Also, over time, due to the laws of entropy (the second law of thermodynamics), ‘chaos’ or ‘disorder’ ensues. However, as Object existed before and obviously at time 0 (otherwise the Object could not have created the Universe if it did not exist which is in contradiction with the definition that the Object did create the Universe), this Object had no entropy and thus no ‘disorder’ or ‘chaos’ and was hence ‘ordered’ and perfect.
The Object is eternal as to create something you must initially be outside it and hence is not governed by time or space and is thus timeless and eternal.
By definition, an omnipotent, omniscient, perfect and eternal Object that created the Universe is God.
Thus God exists.
Q.E.D
 

Continuum

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Initially, let us assume that the universe was infinitely old and an infinite regression or cyclical in nature. However, by the laws of entropy (the second law of thermodynamics), where the amount of energy in a system that is available to lose work is decreasing, this means that at some point the usable energy in the universe would have been depleted. However this is evidently not the case, hence a contradiction occurs.
Hitherto it is evident therefore that at some point, the universe had a beginning. Thus the universe was caused, particularly since it is governed by time.
This force, by definition of a force which is an interaction between objects, must have been caused by an Object. Although some can claim that this argument is contradictory since this Object in the nature of applying a force must apply it to something else, hence proving God is not one, they fail to realise that something can apply a force to oneself. Hence a singular Object can exist. Also, supposing that two objects did exist, as one and only one of the Objects applied a force to the other object, it created the Universe with this force and hence only one Object could have possibly created the universe.
Via causality, as this Object was present before the Universe (the Universe being defined as what encompasses time and space), the Object was not governed by time and space and as causality is a result of time, this Object does not need to be caused or created by anything else.
It is deduced therefore that the Object that initiated the force that created the Universe was uncaused. By definition it created the universe and since it created all matter, it can destroy all matter and is hence omnipotent.
As consciousness must also have been created by the Object, once again by definition as we proved earlier the Object created everything, the Object must be the root of consciousness. Consciousness is the root of knowledge. Thus the Object created all knowledge and is hence omniscient.
Also, over time, due to the laws of entropy (the second law of thermodynamics), ‘chaos’ or ‘disorder’ ensues. However, as Object existed before and obviously at time 0 (otherwise the Object could not have created the Universe if it did not exist which is in contradiction with the definition that the Object did create the Universe), this Object had no entropy and thus no ‘disorder’ or ‘chaos’ and was hence ‘ordered’ and perfect.
The Object is eternal as to create something you must initially be outside it and hence is not governed by time or space and is thus timeless and eternal.
By definition, an omnipotent, omniscient, perfect and eternal Object that created the Universe is God.
Thus God exists.
Q.E.D
theology with a veil of pseudo-science.
 

KFunk

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By definition it created the universe and since it created all matter, it can destroy all matter and is hence omnipotent.

As consciousness must also have been created by the Object, once again by definition as we proved earlier the Object created everything, the Object must be the root of consciousness. Consciousness is the root of knowledge. Thus the Object created all knowledge and is hence omniscient.

Also, over time, due to the laws of entropy (the second law of thermodynamics), ‘chaos’ or ‘disorder’ ensues. However, as Object existed before and obviously at time 0 (otherwise the Object could not have created the Universe if it did not exist which is in contradiction with the definition that the Object did create the Universe), this Object had no entropy and thus no ‘disorder’ or ‘chaos’ and was hence ‘ordered’ and perfect.
You provide no argument for the statement that if something is the first cause of everything then it can destroy anything - intuitively this strikes me as plainly false. That X is the efficient cause of Y does not seem to entail that X has the power to destroy, or is omnipotent relative to, Y. This requires further argument.

The claim of omniscience seems to rest on the dodgy logic that if X is the efficient cause of Y then X can be said to possess the properties held by Y, noting that this would lead us to conclude that your first cause is also the origin (and hence the possessor?) of faulty logic, malevolence and short-sightedness. Incoherence quickly emerges.

Finally, I'm no physicist, but I suspect that the concept of entropy makes no sense when applied to an object which is outside of space and time. Also, your use of the terms 'order/disorder', 'chaos', etc. rests on pure equivocation - you are taking technical terms from the physical sciences and giving them an unwarranted moral-teleological overlay.

Bullshit with a veil of pseudo-science.
 
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mirakon

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@ KFunk

You are obviously a highly intellectual individual, but let me attempt to refute some of your points.

Initially, we have deduced that the Object was the only thing before the Universe, in which case anything created from it (the Universe) is a part of it. Hence, everything is a product of the Object (by definition of Creation and the only 'materials' were the Object itself. Therefore the Object made the Universe out of itself.) Hence everything humans etc, are parts of this Object. The Object conceives itself (like we know each arm and leg of our body) and hence as everything is a part/product of it, it can conceive everything. Therefore as it can conceive everything, it is omniscient.

Also, said Object had the abilities to create something. Destruction of something is merely the reverse process. If one is capable of a process, he is capable of the reverse process. Every force has an equal and opposite force. Therefore it can destroy everthing. Therefore it is omnipotent.

Faulty logic etc, are notions, they aren't physical things and hence these are not necessarily consequently part of the Object asc you claim. I mean, can you really prove fact exists at all? And hence, is there really anything such as 'faulty' logic? Faulty logic is an emotional aspect of the mind, it is not a physical object, rather we developed it over time. Also, by the definition of omnipotence proven earlier, even if the Object did create 'faulty logic', then it is potent over logic and hence does not have to abide by logic.

Also, yes, entropy does not apply to the Object as it preceded time and space, but it does apply to the beginning of the Universe, which is where I applied the argument. The beginning of the Universe was at time and space 0, which neverhteless still exists as a point in time and space. A useful analogy is the point circle in the Cartesian plane, it had radius zero but nevertheless still exists as a circle albeit as a point-circle. Therefore the laws of entropy apply to the beginnings of the Universe.

Also, you claim I misconstrued scientific terms to be relvant in a theological sense, yet how do you know these theological terms aren't symbolic of the scientific terms. Disorder theologically may be symbolic of scientific disorder, not just 'evil' as some people claim. To not link theology to science is to be extremely narrow-minded.
 
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SJ851

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"I tell you Winston, that reality is not external. Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else..."

If somebody believes there is a god then I guess 'it exists'? God exists because they consciously recognise it, same as I consciously recognise that I am breathing, that my keyboard is black etc.

The bigger question of 'did god do all of this stuff to make the universe' cannot be answered. Do not confuse science with religion, religion requires a certain dogmatic refusal to change your mind, a bad scientist follows this line of thought - science is all about following the evidence and what is perceived to be correct (using best practice and evidence). Religion is about 'faith', both parties weaken their argument substantially when they attempt to use 'science' to prove or disprove 'religion'.
 

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@ KFunk

You are obviously a highly intellectual individual, but let me attempt to refute some of your points.

1. Initially, we have deduced that the Object was the only thing before the Universe, in which case anything created from it (the Universe) is a part of it. Hence, everything is a product of the Object (by definition of Creation and the only 'materials' were the Object itself. Therefore the Object made the Universe out of itself.) Hence everything humans etc, are parts of this Object. The Object conceives itself (like we know each arm and leg of our body) and hence as everything is a part/product of it, it can conceive everything. Therefore as it can conceive everything, it is omniscient.

2. Also, said Object had the abilities to create something. Destruction of something is merely the reverse process. If one is capable of a process, he is capable of the reverse process. Every force has an equal and opposite force. Therefore it can destroy everthing. Therefore it is omnipotent.

3. Faulty logic etc, are notions, they aren't physical things and hence these are not necessarily consequently part of the Object asc you claim. I mean, can you really prove fact exists at all? And hence, is there really anything such as 'faulty' logic? Faulty logic is an emotional aspect of the mind, it is not a physical object, rather we developed it over time. Also, by the definition of omnipotence proven earlier, even if the Object did create 'faulty logic', then it is potent over logic and hence does not have to abide by logic.

4. Also, yes, entropy does not apply to the Object as it preceded time and space, but it does apply to the beginning of the Universe, which is where I applied the argument. The beginning of the Universe was at time and space 0, which neverhteless still exists as a point in time and space. A useful analogy is the point circle in the Cartesian plane, it had radius zero but nevertheless still exists as a circle albeit as a point-circle. Therefore the laws of entropy apply to the beginnings of the Universe.

5. Also, you claim I misconstrued scientific terms to be relvant in a theological sense, yet how do you know these theological terms aren't symbolic of the scientific terms. Disorder theologically may be symbolic of scientific disorder, not just 'evil' as some people claim. To not link theology to science is to be extremely narrow-minded.
I have numbered your paragraphs for convenience (and I should briefly note that I appreciate the time taken to cosntruct your response. While I disagree with you I can see that you are being thoughtful - a BoS rarity?):

(1) That something is made from me, or arises from my creative force, does not entail that it is part of me. I could make a wig using my own hair, but I would not therefore consider it part of me, or expect to share in its extension or experience, similarly I might donate a kidney. There is no reason to expect any being to have perfect self-knowledge - I have two proofs for this, one of which is empirical/contingent whilst the other derives from logic (i) we lack perfect knowledge of our physical bodies; certainly, we possess experiences associated with our limbs as you indicate, but I have no sense nor necessary knowledge or conception of the enzymatic activities of my pancreas or of hormone production in my thyroid gland, which is enough to show that there is no necessary connection between the physical extension of a being and that being's possessing knowledge of the structure/nature of everything within the area of extension (that is to say, you cannot assume it as a general law - you require a positive proof that this reasoning holds in the case of the origin), and (ii) IF (big if) cognition can be modelled as an axiomatic or computational system then Godel's incompleteness theorem would seem to imply a limit to self-knowledge.

Your claim of omniscience is either invalid or in need of further proof.

(2) On creation/destruction: certainly while talking about an intelligent being you can use a workshop metaphor to say, for example, that putting an analogue clock together is much the same as pulling it apart. Note, however, that destruction need not be so ordered - smashing a clock with a sledgehammer is entirely different to unscrewing the parts and removing the cogwheels one by one. The artisan cannot assemble a clock in so violent a manner, for example by summoning together shredded materials with a single movement of a hammer. You seem to depend on a principle of symmetry which does not obtain in many common examples of creation-destruction. Furthermore, the concept of entropy which you invoke depends on asymmetry in such processes:

Thomasina (from Arcadia): When you stir your rice pudding, Septimus, the spoonful of jam spreads itself round making red trails like the picture of a meteor in my astronomical atlas. But if you stir backward, the jam will not come together again. Indeed, the pudding does not notice and continues to turn pink just as before. Do you think this is odd?

Further, in some cases we are not talking about the kind of creation where the workshop image of the symmetry of ordered destruction even applies in a straight forward way - e.g. the creation of energy, or of being simpliciter. At such limits of thought I hesitate to extend metaphors of the everyday.

(3) Faulty logic is no less physical than consciousness, in so far as if you wish to dismiss 'logical capacity' on the basis of its being non-physical then surely the same objection could be levelled at consciousness? Also, following point (2), I reject your claim to ominipotence, or minimally, request a more substantial proof, and hence reject your defence of 'faulty logic' which depends on omnipotence. More than this, I would claim that your argument for creative-destructive omnipotence stands separate from arguments for omnipotence in the realm of the logos - for example, by varying the terms of the Euthyphro Dilemma we might ask "Do the gods set the limits they do in accordance with logic? Or is logic in accordance with the limits set by the gods?". Omnipotence can be conceived in a variety of ways. Proof in one domain does not necessarily extend to others unless some bridging principle can be found between them.

(4) Granted, though I think you still need to explain how an object which is fundamentally independent of space and time can be bound up, or inscribed, in space and time to the extent required to make entropy applicable.

(5) Simple example: I can conceive of physical systems in which an increase in entropy corresponds to an increase in the degree of 'moral perfection'. Have a think about this (Edit, to provide a simplistic example: destruction, and dissolution of the material, of an atomic bomb).
 
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mirakon

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@ Kfunk. An excellent argument, and for once I struggle to argue back for now(perhaps in some time I can refute your points, as I enjoy this debate:shouting::D but as for now consider yourself the victor.)

Really, I would just like to ask, how do you personally define God? As the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient etc. being or simply whatever created the Universe?
 

KFunk

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Really, I would just like to ask, how do you personally define God? As the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient etc. being or simply whatever created the Universe?
To be honest I don't have a definition of god. To me that question is somewhat like asking of Lewis Carroll's Alice - how tall do you think she is, 5"2, 5"5? Sure, I have encountered a number of definitions of god put forward in the history of religious thought (to pick some random categories which are themselves broad: deism, pantheism, polytheism) but for me quibbling over which one is right or best suits me is like discussing what shade we should use between blonde and black to describe Alice's hair.

Compare also, to make the problem less a matter of fiction, a cryptozoologist who asks 'given that there may be an ancient, unobserved beast living at the bottom of the ocean, what do you think it looks like? Black, transluscent, fluorescent, tentacled, scaly? Would it be driven by instinct or intelligence, or guided by universal omniscience?'.
 

KFunk

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A query in response would be: what do you view the value of that question to be?
 

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