Does God exist? (14 Viewers)

[Planck]

nine eleven was an inside job

 

[SeCKSiiMiNh]

To say "God exists because you can't prove he doesn't exist" is like saying that someone is "guilty until proven innocent" in the context of the Salem witch trials. There is no reliable evidence for or against witchcraft ("it is an invisible crime, is it not?"), therefore the accused, whether they committed the "crime" or not, is always guilty (you can relate this to Arthur Miller's play The Crucible ).

Screwed up system/thinking much?

Therefore, because there is no evidence for or against a higher supernatural being, you cannot say if it exists or not.

EDIT: But, one thing. God (as Christians perceive it to be), does not make sense at all. He gives free will, but threatens to send people to hell if they do not use it in a way that HE wants them to. That's blackmail. So loving, eh?

Awwww you make me miss english so much.

 

[ilikebeeef]

nine eleven was an inside job

lol

 

[Name_Taken]

Therefore, because there is no evidence for or against a higher supernatural being, you cannot say if it exists or not.

Teapot, I know, but I wans't making the assertion that God exists (in that post, but I do believe in Him), I was giving an answer to Toenails why (should you accept the notion of God) bad things happen to good people.

(He brought up this article before, of this 4 year old boy who got hit by a stay bullet fired by some dickhead while he was in church with his parents and died).

 

[Name_Taken]

That's too easy! Bad things happen because god must have his reasons?!?!?! That's not good enough! What are these reasons?

Lol, no offense or antyhing, but its not like you would understand the arguement (or give it any credibility at all, which I assume you don't) if you have already rejected the notion of a God existing at all...

 

[SeCKSiiMiNh]

Lol, no offense or antyhing, but its not like you would understand the arguement (or give it any credibility at all, which I assume you don't) if you have already rejected the notion of a God existing at all...

None taken.

Lol, so I trust you know what god's reasons are?

 

[Name_Taken]

None taken.

Lol, so I trust you know what god's reasons are?

I understand where the arguement is comming from, and I can sorta empathise with the writer, but to answer your question, no I don't, and can't imagine what such reasons would be. I can see they'd be specific to a case-by-case sorta basis but other than that, your best guess is as good as mine

 

[ilikebeeef]

Teapot, I know, but I wans't making the assertion that God exists (in that post, but I do believe in Him), I was giving an answer to Toenails why (should you accept the notion of God) bad things happen to good people.

(He brought up this article before, of this 4 year old boy who got hit by a stay bullet fired by some dickhead while he was in church with his parents and died).

Oh, I wasn't replying to you, lol. I was just saying to people in general. ^ ^

But now that you bring it up, I shall.

No, you are making the assertion that God exists. All monotheistic religions do. If you didn't make any assumptions, and considered the "evidence" for and against the existence of a higher supernatural being, then you would be agnostic.

Say you have a brother and I've never met him and hence do not know him. Let's say you are merely describing your brother to me, saying something like "he's mean". This is opinion, not fact. When I meet him, what you said might not apply.

In that post, you are not defining God factually, you are merely stating your beliefs, or your perception of what you THINK he should be. Belief is not the same as fact. You cannot talk for God. It is just an idea in your mind. Someone's perception of God may be different to others.

Whose one is "right"? No opinion can be "right". There is no evidence for God to be what you say he is, therefore your post is invalid.

we must remember that God is good, just, loving, and merciful. Often things happen to us that we simply cannot understand. However, instead of doubting God's goodness, our reaction should be to trust Him. ”Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make your paths straight” (Proverbs 3:5-6).

See my earlier post. It makes no sense to "trust" in an idea. Things happen to us that we simply don't understand, and that is why we have Science. "God is good, just, loving, and merciful" because someone told you that. Amirite?

 

[CecilyMare]

Name_Taken do you believe in karma??

 

[Name_Taken]

Oh, I wasn't replying to you, lol. I was just saying to people in general. ^ ^

But now that you bring it up, I shall.

No, you are making the assertion that God exists. All monotheistic religions do. If you didn't make any assumptions, and considered the "evidence" for and against the existence of a higher supernatural being, then you would be agnostic.

Lol, I said in that post I wans't argueing for His existence, simply if you accept that He does exist, why he would allow said bad things to happen to good people.

Say you have a brother and I've never met him and hence do not know him. Let's say you are merely describing your brother to me, saying something like "he's mean". This is opinion, not fact. When I meet him, what you said might not apply.

Sadly I have both a brother and a sister

No when you meet my brother, he may not appear mean to you, which could lead you to conclude that (in your opinion) that he isn't mean. You could however have faith that I was telling the truth, and explain his "not-mean" behaviour as simply good acting (in which case now it's your opinion he's a good acotor). Both are plausible explanations (and there's prob like millions more).

As a result of your conclusion (if you thought he was a nice person), you could assert I am a liar and as a result of that, I could in fact be the mean person and w/e but thats a seperate issue...

In that post, you are not defining God factually, you are merely stating your beliefs, or your perception of what you THINK he should be. Belief is not the same as fact. You cannot talk for God. It is just an idea in your mind. Someone's perception of God may be different to others.

Point taken, but the door swings both ways.

Whose one is "right"? No opinion can be "right". There is no evidence for God to be what you say he is, therefore your post is invalid.

Its not invalid, but I see where you're comming from, it would be an opinion.

I admit however this is a ridiculously circular debate, owing to the lack of evidence on both sides. Fun though

See my earlier post. It makes no sense to "trust" in an idea. Things happen to us that we simply don't understand, and that is why we have Science. "God is good, just, loving, and merciful" because someone told you that. Amirite?

Icwhaudidther

But going back to your example. If I tell you my brother is mean, and you never get to meet him, or talk to someone else, would you believe me, and conclude that in fact he is mean?

It comes down to a matter of faith, how much you trust me, when I say that he is mean as to whether or not you believe he is mean or not. If you have faith in the source, you would conclude he's mean, if you doubt the source(s), you can only speculate what in fact he is (and what in fact, I am).

And on a side note, my brother isn't that bad

 

[Name_Taken]

Name_Taken do you believe in karma??

Um there is an element of truth to it (everything does have consequences), in the physical and social sense, as in if I'm really mean to everyone, I'm not going to recieve much help if I need it, and vice-versa.

I don't believe in it in a spiritual sense, though I try to be nice to people when I can (not saying I'm like a Mother Teresa or anything tho).

 

[ilikebeeef]

Lol, I said in that post I wans't argueing for His existence, simply if you accept that He does exist, why he would allow said bad things to happen to good people.

You cannot say what God is because we don't know him. What if he allows bad things to happen to good people because.... he is a bit sadistic?? Lol what if God is playing a simulation game e.g. SimCity and we happen to live in it??

God: Hey, omg, let's see what happens if we unleash a volcano in the middle of New York City!

No when you meet my brother, he may not appear mean to you, which could lead you to conclude that (in your opinion) that he isn't mean. You could however have faith that I was telling the truth, and explain his "not-mean" behaviour as simply good acting (in which case now it's your opinion he's a good acotor). Both are plausible explanations (and there's prob like millions more).

As a result of your conclusion (if you thought he was a nice person), you could assert I am a liar and as a result of that, I could in fact be the mean person and w/e but thats a seperate issue...

That is why I say that reality is blurred. There is no absolute truth. Therefore you cannot say that God is true or false.

Its not invalid, but I see where you're comming from, it would be an opinion.

By "invalid" I meant that it is not a fact.

Icwhaudidther

Hehe

But going back to your example. If I tell you my brother is mean, and you never get to meet him, or talk to someone else, would you believe me, and conclude that in fact he is mean?

I wouldn't know and hence form no opinion aka be agnostic.

Point taken, but the door swings both ways.

I admit however this is a ridiculously circular debate, owing to the lack of evidence on both sides. Fun though

It comes down to a matter of faith, how much you trust me, when I say that he is mean as to whether or not you believe he is mean or not. If you have faith in the source, you would conclude he's mean, if you doubt the source(s), you can only speculate what in fact he is (and what in fact, I am).

That is absolutely right. I guess it's a bit like finding which sources are reliable in History. And at the moment, there are none!

Sadly I have both a brother and a sister

And on a side note, my brother isn't that bad

Lol kk.

 

[Name_Taken]

You cannot say what God is because we don't know him. What if he allows bad thing to happen to good people because.... he is a bit sadistic?? Lol what if God is playing a simulation game e.g. SimCity and we happen to live in it??

Back to what I said about sources, if you accept that the Bible is a credible source, then the God you believe in is the one is described in the Bible. (Likewise with other religions and their scriptures).

As such, a Christian can claim to know about God (based on what is described of Him in the Bible, which is credible for them). Ergo a Christian will explain natural disasters and the like, based on their understanding of God. People who believe in other Gods, may have similar or different explainations based on the God described by their religion.

God: Hey, omg, let's see what happens if we unleash a volcano in the middle of New York City!

Lol @ irony

That is why I say that reality is blurred. There is no absolute truth. Therefore you cannot say that God is true or false.

I believe in absolute truth, but on a practical level, it is almost impossible for humans to relate to it day-to-day existence.

There is no evidence for either side, currently and nor with there be, stemming from the fundamental limitations of what science can explain. It can only point out differences between what is stated in various religious texts and what is observable in the universe, thus raising doubt on the credibility of the text.

By "invalid" I meant that it is not a fact.

I knew what you meant.

That is absolutely right. I guess it's a bit like finding which sources are reliable in History. And at the moment, there are none!

Sources in History are sort of an interesting analogy.

An expression of opinion. You believe none of them are credible. A Christian believes the Bible is, as does a Muslim believe in the Qu'ran.

 

[Name_Taken]

Woot page 1000

 

[Phoenix Fury]

Um there is an element of truth to it (everything does have consequences), in the physical and social sense, as in if I'm really mean to everyone, I'm not going to recieve much help if I need it, and vice-versa.

I don't believe in it in a spiritual sense, though I try to be nice to people when I can (not saying I'm like a Mother Teresa or anything tho).

Exactly how I see it also

 

[birdy17]

why are people so opposed to the idea of God... why keep arguing about it?
if you do, you do... if you don't, well, you don't.

 

[theism]

why are people so opposed to the idea of God... why keep arguing about it?
if you do, you do... if you don't, well, you don't.

As a Theist i think it's important that we debate about the issue, as do for other related humanities like philosophy.

and when i say debate i mean constructive debate, not like XaittyO who was both ignorant and arragont, who then got owned and hasn't returned to the thread yet

it's fine.
As a fellow truth searcher, i would be enlightened.

of course there is a difference between intellectual discussion, and blatant personal attacks

 

[KFunk]

The universe wasn't created in spacetime it is finite but boundary-less.

If there is no evidence of any god, and no need for one for life on earth to continue functioning occam's razor dictates that no god exists, much less any as specific as specified by world's religions. Also Occam's Razor is a philosophical and logical rule it is not bounded by space-time.

I'm not a big fan of metaphysical uses of Ockham's razor such as your above statement that it "dictates that no god exists". I personally think that Ockham's razor is best interpreted as an epistemological principle relating to belief and knowledge. In other words, Ockham's razor dictates that we cannot justify belief in complex entities for which we lack evidence (god, in this case) but it would be misguided to suppose that it suggests that such entities therefore do not exist.

Also, insofar as Ockham's razor relates to problems of evidence and justification I think it does find limits in space-time, in particular once we reach conceptual regions which escape representation by the human mind or detection by scientific instruments.

Plagiarising a previous post: There are also interesting anomalous cases at the limits of thought - take, for example, Aristotle's concept of prime matter (though I believe this is not Aristotle's terminology) which is the most basic material substrate of reality (like energy, for example) and so exists entirely without form - i.e. no predicates/properties/descriptions can apply to prime matter (note the contradiction that arises in thus speaking of it). Prime matter is what is left when you strip away all form/properties. Such a physicological substrate would necessarily be without any sensible qualities - in fact, it is an interesting limit case of the Kantian sublime, i.e. that of which we can form an idea but which we cannot represent through use of a mental picture (e.g. one can represent a square, but not a 1000 sided shape, even though we can grasp the idea of each). It is unclear in cases like prime matter whether Ockham's razor even applies since we seem to exit the domain of empirical science and arrive at logic or metaphysics or aethetics or ... et cetera.

 

[123 B A N G]

I find it very interesting that religions change over time and borrow from many different sources. If anyone has studied ancient Persian religion, Zoroastrianism it is very hard to ignore all the parallels between the prophet Zoroastor's life and the life of Jesus. Religion then, ironically, is subject to Darwin's theory of artificial selection.

 

[thongetsu]

IMO god doesn't exist. Why? He creates famine, disease, war, poverty, etc. What kind of god does that?A sadistic god?
God is just a figure of faith for those who don't believe in luck and coincidences. Shit happens.
How was God created? Did a bunch of nothing just decide to create a universe?
God: Hey im gonna become real and create myself a universe.
Anyway im a pessimist and people are entitled to their own beliefs and opinions. BTW i realised i've offended a lot of people.