Does God exist? (15 Viewers)

[dan964]

Everything is.

and your point is?

 

[Paradoxica]

and your point is?

If you want to go down the rabbit hole, then we go back to the argument of Socrates.

 

[dan964]

If you want to go down the rabbit hole, then we go back to the argument of Socrates.

you mean Socrates' method? (I have probably inadvertedly used this)

What in response to?

If you want me to, here are some questions...
"Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated"
i.e. a negative form of agnosticism. How do you know that nothing can be known for instance, if nothing can be known, it just because implausible?

An agnostic is one who believes it impossible to know anything about God or about the creation of the universe. If agnostics are really going to be serious, do they need to tell cosmologists to stop what they are doing? (this is a non-serious question though)

 

[dan964]

Fitch's paradox*** of knowability is one of the fundamental puzzles of epistemic logic. It provides a challenge to the knowability thesis, which states that every truth is, in principle, knowable. The paradox is that this assumption implies the omniscience principle, which asserts that every truth is known. Essentially, Fitch's paradox asserts that the existence of an unknown truth is unknowable. So if all truths were knowable, it would follow that all truths are in fact known.

The paradox is of concern for verificationist (in other sense a positive logicist) or anti-realist accounts of truth, for which the knowability thesis is very plausible, but the omniscience principle is very implausible
===
It seems awfully inconsistent then to hold it. Lets just call it for what it is - a paradox.

***The assumption is as follows:
For consider some such truth P that will never actually be known. Then the statement Q: "P is true but will never be known" is true. But Q is clearly unknowable, for if you knew Q then you would know the first conjunct (P), but that would contradict the second conjunct (P is never known), thus making Q false, which is a contradiction. Since knowing Q would yield a contradiction, and is thus impossible, then Q is an unknowable truth.

 

[dan964]

Fitch's paradox*** of knowability is one of the fundamental puzzles of epistemic logic. It provides a challenge to the knowability thesis, which states that every truth is, in principle, knowable. The paradox is that this assumption implies the omniscience principle, which asserts that every truth is known. Essentially, Fitch's paradox asserts that the existence of an unknown truth is unknowable. So if all truths were knowable, it would follow that all truths are in fact known.

The paradox is of concern for verificationist (in other sense a positive logicist) or anti-realist accounts of truth, for which the knowability thesis is very plausible, but the omniscience principle is very implausible
===
It seems awfully inconsistent then to hold it. Lets just call it for what it is - a paradox.

***The assumption is as follows:
For consider some such truth P that will never actually be known. Then the statement Q: "P is true but will never be known" is true. But Q is clearly unknowable, for if you knew Q then you would know the first conjunct (P), but that would contradict the second conjunct (P is never known), thus making Q false, which is a contradiction. Since knowing Q would yield a contradiction, and is thus impossible, then Q is an unknowable truth.

I probably won't have the time or effort to reply to any more posts if I am honest.

 

[Kaido]

I probably won't have the time or effort to reply to any more posts if I am honest.

Time to get some deep dish cheese pizzas.
Thank god.
No pun intended.

 

[sida1049]

Lets think about explanation in terms of rationality rather than the human mind to be able to comprehend it, or

Regarding the contingency argument, why do we have to assume that the cause of the existence of the universe is at the attribution of a being? Well what other alternatives do you have that are equally as probable in the minds of that argument?]

But that's just it. If you restrict the parameters of your analysis of the cause of the existence of the universe to:

1. there must be an explanation, and

2. we must be able to understand it,

then you'll almost always arrive at the conclusion that there must be some absolute, creator being, purely because we can understand this idea. But human comprehension and conception is flawed; we can do the algebra of abstract maths, but we can't always comprehend and understand it. The sum of all natural numbers is -1/12 according to algebra that many people can do, but we can't comprehend this result. My point is that the universe exists, and probably has a cause, but we can't reasonably assume that it's something that we can understand. The concept of an eternal, omnipotent creator is tempting precisely because we get it, but its convenience in conception is evident of our own cognitive bias.

We, of course, understand the universe in our imperfect, oversimplified explanations and representations, but I think it's quite necessary to acknowledge just that; we can never quite comprehend the actuality of something, but rather useful but ultimately false parodies to the benefit of our survival. I think that this is probably the failure of science; that it's useful, but mere attempts at representations. I personally think that science does acknowledge the entropy and unpredictability of the world, though. But I guess that really depends on the branch of science.

Isn't that an assumption?

===
Everything is defined so we could understand that, that is the point of learning, and almost all fields of study.

It's an assumption, yes, but taken from established, empirical scientific understanding. We've observed and documented the tendency of species, particularly in social species, to develop certain biases in their behaviour which favour its survival (or in lab experiments, their reward). From such, the idea of a creator being is more probable the result of our own cognitive biases, as opposed to its own truth (which brings more questions than answers).

If that is the case though, there is no basis for agnosticism to presume naturalism as it does. If by abstract, you mean metaphysical then to some degree (which is why a lot of religions describe the interaction between such being and this world - immanence but at the same time hold to transcendence).

Agnosticism falls apart as much, if your earlier statements are true. If for instance the universe is incomprehensible and hence beyond perception of understanding, then there would be no surefire method of proving or disproving its existence, clearly we reject this conclusion, as the universe exists; so why would we not reject the premise?

I tend to think of explanation more so of rational logic and reasoning behind something.

The whole point of terms like contingency and necessity are to describe a very simple thing, why the universe cannot be self-caused.

I think the reason why agnosticism pertains closer to atheism as opposed to a more religious viewpoint is because of the absence of religious teaching.

The universe exists, because we can perceive ourselves within it. However our perceptions are limited such that they maximise our survivability. Under the theory of evolution, that's the whole point of perceptions in the first place. Uncertainties regarding the origin of the universe as well as things far from the physical world are inevitable, so I do think agnostics have some noteworthy point.

What we define as the universe is simply the time and space in which the laws/parameters of physics are held. Is it not possible that even before the occurrence of what we currently understand as the universe, that physical parameters still existed, but differently, and hence it was a different kind or type of universe? Excuse my broad speculation, but I don't think, with our current understanding at least, that we can confidently assert that the universe was not "self-caused", or whatever that term means.

What missing links have been found? I am curious.

Well the footprint of Jesus wouldn't prove the resurrection anyway, because we wouldn't know when that would be. Besides I don't think the footprints would have been preserved for that long. (Last time I checked, no major Christian group holds to Jesus still roaming bare feet around the world).

I was using an absurd, unlikely scenario to make my point. I'm sure (or at least I don't think) most theologians would take such evidence, if it existed, seriously.

By missing link, I mean transitional fossils. Evolutionary biologists and archaeologists have found many transitional fossils between certain species and their primates. They've done so for the current human species as well; here's a list. I used this example because many religious fundamentalists demand evidence of the missing link between humans and our primates, and once they have been found, they proceed to demand the missing link between us and that missing link, and so on.

I probably won't have the time or effort to reply to any more posts if I am honest.

Yeah, that's alright. I understand that. In that case, I don't think I will be commenting any further on the matter.

 

[dan964]

Time to get some deep dish cheese pizzas.
Thank god.
No pun intended.

?

 

[dan964]

But that's just it. If you restrict the parameters of your analysis...of the existence of the universe to:

1. there must be an explanation, and
2. we must be able to understand it

(I removed of the cause in the quote, because it more so dealing with the existence of the universe as well.)

Number 1 is more of a concession as a result of thinking the universe is rational because of its order, which may be a little bit of a stretch. It stems from the PSR*, principle of sufficient reason for me to think that there is sufficient reason to believe that there is an explanation even if we cannot understand it.

Number 2 isn't necessary needed. Only realistically does a limited degree of understanding may be required. In fact, the Christian belief in God is probably one of the most incomprehensible views there are as opposed to say Unitarianism. I think that hints a difference between knowing and comprehension.

The key lie in definitions, which may indeed be constructs to help navigate the vastness of the universe.

If there is a cause, the question is what must that cause be to be consistent and logically able to allow for the causation of a material and physical universe.

A healthy degree of speculation and skepticism is okay, after all it is supposed to be critically thought through.

I think that this is probably the failure of science; that it's useful, but mere attempts at representations. I personally think that science does acknowledge the entropy and unpredictability of the world, though. But I guess that really depends on the branch of science.

Probably, but then again, same applies to a lot of things that could be described as mere attempts as representations. It probably does. It comes down to how certain can we know certain things or claim certain things, and that really is subjective.

Then you'll almost always arrive at the conclusion that there must be some absolute, creator being, purely because we can understand this idea. But human comprehension and conception is flawed; we can do the algebra of abstract maths, but we can't always comprehend and understand it. The sum of all natural numbers is -1/12 according to algebra that many people can do, but we can't comprehend this result. My point is that the universe exists, and probably has a cause, but we can't reasonably assume that it's something that we can understand. The concept of an eternal, omnipotent creator is tempting precisely because we get it, but its convenience in conception is evident of our own cognitive bias.

The bias could goes for the equally opposite position, to say the universe is self-caused for instance.

While I agree that the universe exists, probably has a cause, I think also we cannot assume it is something we can or cannot understand. With regards to a necessary being, if that is the cause, it is still for the most part a concept that isn't very well understood, and by definition isn't completely comprehensible either (and that is something that most Christians would agree on). I watched a video for instance that was describing hyper-dimensions, and although I get the logic behind it, it still is beyond much of my comprehension. I think the same applies in this situation.

The fact that we want an answer to the question of "what is the cause of the universe?" for instance, suggests that there is most likely one. The only thing is to then do, is see what alternatives there are, since people will always question conclusions in this topic, simply because there is a lot at stake.

There must be some reason why a certain fact, e.g. lets say the universe is self-causal, to be true, i.e. some basis, unfortunately for that one, I don't see a basis, so for the moment, I see no reason to believe the universe is self-causal, anymore than it is for instance oscillating. There must be at least a measure of establishing reality or truth, even if it is limited by human comprehension for instance.

Unless of course you think that there is nothing rational about the human mind, but yes, it is mainly yes a logical construct for each of the alternatives. If the universe was self-causal, does that mean it exists necessarily? Clearly the uncertainty principle disputes that. and you add every other alternative, it just becomes a game of
"well what about this?", "well what about that?" and I am sure you can come up to objectives to anything.

I think that science indeed has its failures, but that it is being consistently refined. Will we reach a full understanding of the universe? I don't think so, but I don't see the idea of necessary being able to be necessarily a comprehensible definition, your objections a couple of replies earlier, demonstrate that, there is still a great deal of things that are yet to be understood.

While I have my conclusions, you have yours.

 

[Paradoxica]

Sorry Dan, but your Principle of Sufficient Reason is itself presumptious.

“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

 

[dan964]

Sorry Dan, but your Principle of Sufficient Reason is itself presumptious.

“The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you.” ― Neil deGrasse Tyson

Probably is. And no need to be sorry. The universe doesn't make sense for the most part to me anyway.

"One of the most interesting questions regarding the PSR is why to accept it at all. Insofar as the PSR stipulates that all facts must be explainable, it seems that the PSR itself demands an explanation just as much. Several modern philosophers attempted to provide a proof for the PSR, though so far these attempts have been mostly unsuccessful. Another important problem related to the PSR is the possibility of self-explanatory facts and self-caused entities; particularly, one may wonder how these are distinguished from unexplainable, brute facts and uncaused entities. One may also wonder whether the PSR allows for primitive concepts that cannot be further explained"

To make this distinction, typically involves modifying it to include this possibility, hence the introduction of necessity. Some may exist in the necessity of its nature or be contigent on something else. Obviously this main not be enough.

The main objection would be when seeking to understand a philosopher's commitment to the PSR are what is in the domain of ‘everything’ and what counts as a ‘sufficient reason’?

I suspect the assumption underlies a lot of thought regarding verification of "contigent" truths/facts if you like, and also the very desire at least to seek some more of explanation of the world around us, which is what is the motivation typically behind science.



===
So yes, it may be presumptious, but as you probably think that most things are.

 

[braintic]

It seems every time I make a comment here, a torrent of posts is unleashed.

It's been 11 days now, and I need a BS fix. Please scratch my itch.

Hmmmm ...... what can I say to get the ball rolling? Let's see ....... how can a snake without a voicebox or a brain smaller than a pea possibly talk, make itself understood in a human language, and have his words recorded for posterity millenia before the advent of writing? Would someone please explain the physics behind this phenomenon.

And one for the Muslims: Since lust is a sin in Islam, why do Muslims go around coveting 72 virgins? (And why virgins anyway? ... there is a LOT to be said for experience.)

 

[Drsoccerball]

And one for the Muslims: Since lust is a sin in Islam, why do Muslims go around coveting 72 virgins? (And why virgins anyway? ... there is a LOT to be said for experience.)

Nice question. First of all I'd like to say this hadith is one of the most misunderstood hadith. It's an old saying which basically means that in heaven you can have anything. Using virgins due to their value in status of purity can be a symbol for great value. So when I say you get 72 virgins in paradise this doesn't literally mean you get 72 virgins. It means you can have anything you want. Ironically enough, even if you wanted 73 virgins you would get it . I'm also assuming this is an authentic hadith but many people scholars say its a weak hadith. (Which of course appears that way if taken literally as you have done )

Lust isn't a sin. It is only a sin if you act upon it before marriage. It is natural to want the opposite gender in a sexual way but Islam only allow you to express those lusts when you're married.

 

[Paradoxica]

Nice question. First of all I'd like to say this hadith is one of the most misunderstood hadith. It's an old saying which basically means that in heaven you can have anything. Using virgins due to their value in status of purity can be a symbol for great value. So when I say you get 72 virgins in paradise this doesn't literally mean you get 72 virgins. It means you can have anything you want. Ironically enough, even if you wanted 73 virgins you would get it . I'm also assuming this is an authentic hadith but many people scholars say its a weak hadith. (Which of course appears that way if taken literally as you have done )

Lust isn't a sin. It is only a sin if you act upon it before marriage. It is natural to want the opposite gender in a sexual way but Islam only allow you to express those lusts when you're married.

And that is exactly why I choose to reject your religion.

 

[Drsoccerball]

Hmmmm ...... what can I say to get the ball rolling? Let's see ....... how can a snake without a voicebox or a brain smaller than a pea possibly talk, make itself understood in a human language, and have his words recorded for posterity millenia before the advent of writing? Would someone please explain the physics behind this phenomenon.

What is this referring to ?

 

[Drsoccerball]

And that is exactly why I choose to reject your religion.

If a person has homosexual tendencies, and doesn't act upon it he will receive greater rewards in the next life than the person who has tendencies to the opposite gender and doesn't act upon it. Also following your desires isn't always the best thing to do.

 

[Paradoxica]

If a person has homosexual tendencies, and doesn't act upon it he will receive greater rewards in the next life than the person who has tendencies to the opposite gender and doesn't act upon it. Also following your desires isn't always the best thing to do.

I am not motivated by a possible reward whose existence cannot be verified. How does that say anything about this? Homosexuality isn't harmful to society or the individual, in any way, physically, psychologically and sociologically.

If you do not have anything positive or neutral to say about homosexuality, then do not say anything about it at all.

 

[Drsoccerball]

I am not motivated by a possible reward whose existence cannot be verified. How does that say anything about this? Homosexuality isn't harmful to society or the individual, in any way, physically, psychologically and sociologically.

If you do not have anything positive or neutral to say about homosexuality, then do not say anything about it at all.

You have to believe in a God to believe that His Mercy and Justice and ultimately to believe in Heaven and Hell. I'm not going to debate you about the harms vs the benefits with homosexuality because in the end you won't be convinced because as we can point out things wrong with it and you would be able to point out things equally right with it. Here's where we usually go to Divine scriptures. Hold let me now post the proof for god that I like.

 

[Drsoccerball]

Arguments for Divine Existence and Unity and how to acquire a firm conviction of Divine Unity

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.

First station

Consider the following verses:

God sets forth parables for humanity in order that they may bear (them) in mind and take lessons (through them). (14:25)

Such parables do We set forth for humanity so that they may reflect.

(59:21)

ONCE TWO PEOPLE WASHED THEMSELVES IN A POOL AND FELL INTO A trance-like state. Upon awakening, they found themselves in a land of perfect order and harmony. They looked around in amazement:

It appeared to them as a vast world, a well-ordered state, a splendid city. If it was looked at from still another point of view, it was a palace that was in itself a magnificent world. They travelled and saw its creatures speaking a language they did not know. However, their gestures indicated that they were doing important work and carrying out significant duties.

One of them said: “This world must have an administrator, this well-ordered state a master, this splendid city an owner, and this skilfully made palace a master builder. We must try to know him, for he brought us here. If we do not, who will help us? What can we expect from those impotent creatures whose language we do not know and who ignore us? Moreover, one who has made a huge world in the form of a state, a city, or a palace and filled it with wonderful things, embellished it with every adornment, and decorated it with instructive miracles wants something from us and those who come here. We must know him and learn what he wants.”

The other person objected: “There is no such being to govern this world by himself,” to which his friend replied: “If we do not recognize him and remain indifferent, we gain nothing and might face some harm. But if we try to recognize him, there is little hardship and the chance of great benefit. So how can we remain indifferent?” The other man insisted: “I find all my ease and enjoyment in not thinking of him. Besides, these things do not concern me. They happened by chance or by themselves.” His smart friend replied: “Such obstinacy will get us and many others in trouble. Sometimes a state is ruined because of one ill-mannered person.”

The other person turned and said: “Either prove that what you say is true or leave me alone.” At that, his friend said:“Since your obstinacy borders on insanity and will cause us to suffer a great calamity, I will show you twelve proofs that this palace-like world, this city-like state, has one master builder who administers it and has no deficiency. He is invisible to us, but must see us and everything and also hear all voices. All his works seem miraculous. All these creatures whom we see but whose languages we do not understand must be his officials [working in his name].

Twelve proofs

FIRST PROOF:Look around. A hidden hand is working in everything, for some-thing without strength is bearing loads weighing thousands of pounds. (Referring to seeds which bear trees)
101 Something without consciousness is doing much intelligent and purposive work.102 (102 This refers to delicate plants like grapevines, which cannot rise by themselves or bear the weight of fruits, and so throw their delicate arms around other plants or trees and wind themselves around and load themselves onto them.)

As they therefore cannot be working on their own, a powerful, hidden one is caus-ing them to work. If everything were happening on its own, all the work being done in this place must itself be a miracle, and everything a miracle-working marvel.

SECOND PROOF: Look at the adornments of these plains, fields, and resi-dences. Each are marks pointing to that hidden one. Like a seal or stamp, each gives news of him. Look at what he produces from a few grams of cotton.103 (103 For example, an atom-sized poppy seed, an apricot stone that weighs a few grams, or a melon seed each produce from Mercy’s treasury woven leaves more beautiful than broad-cloth, flowers whiter or yellower than linen, fruits sweeter than sugar, and finer and more delicious than jams, and offer them to us.)

See how many rolls of cloth, linen, and flowered material have come out of it; how much sweet food and other delights are being made. If thousands of people clothed themselves from these or ate of those, there would still be enough.

Again, look. He has taken a handful of iron, soil, water, coal, copper, silver, and gold and made some living creatures.104(104 This refers to the creation of animal bodies from elements and living creatures from sperm.)

Look and see. These sorts of work are particular to one that holds this land together with all its parts under his mirac-ulous power and all-submissive to his will.

[Another modern discovery that links to this proof watch the whole thing:

THIRD PROOF: Look at these priceless, moving works of art.105(105 This refers to animals and human beings. Since an animal is a tiny index of the world, and humanity is a miniature of the universe, whatever is in the universe has a sample that is contained within each human being.)

Each has been fashioned as a miniature specimen of this huge palace. Whatever is in the palace is found in these tiny moving machines. Who but the builder of this amazing palace could include all of it in a tiny machine? Could chance or some-thing purposeless have intervened in this box-sized machine that contains a whole world? However many artistically fashioned machines you see, each is like a seal of that hidden one, like a herald or a proclamation. In their language of being, they announce: “We are the works of art of one who can make this entire world as easily as he made us.”

FOURTH PROOF: I will show you something even stranger. Look. All things in this land are changing. Each lifeless body and unfeeling “bone” has started to move toward certain purposes, as if each were ruling the others. Look at this machine beside us.106(106 This refers to fruit-bearing trees. As if bearing on their slender branches hundreds of looms and factories, they weave wonderful, richly adorned leaves, blossoms and fruits, and then cook these fruits and offer them to us. Such majestic trees like pines and cedars have set up their workbenches on hard, dry rock to work.)

It is as though it were issuing commands and all the materials necessary for its adornment and functioning were running to it from distant places. Look over there. That seemingly lifeless body is as though beckoning, for it makes the biggest bodies serve it and work for it.107(107 This “body” signifies grains, seeds, and the eggs of flies. A fly leaves its eggs on an elm tree’s leaves. Suddenly, the huge tree turns its leaves into a mother’s womb, a cradle, a store full of honey-like food, as if it, although not fruit-bearing, produces animate fruit.)

You may compare the rest with these.

Everything seems to have subjugated to itself all creatures in the world. If you do not accept the hidden one’s existence, you must attribute all his skills, arts, and perfections to the stones, soil, animals, and creatures resembling people to the things themselves. In place of one miracle-working being, millions of mir-acle-workers like him have to exist, both opposed to and similar to each other at the same time, and one within the other, without causing any confusion and spoiling the order. But we know that when two rulers intervene in an affair, the result is confusion. When a village has two headmen, a town two governors, or a country two kings, chaos arises. Given this, what would happen if there were an infinite number of absolute rulers in the same place and at the same time?

FIFTH PROOF : Look carefully at the palace’s ornaments and the city’s adornments. See this land’s orderliness and reflect on this world’s artistry. If the pen of a hidden one with infinite miracles and skills is not working, or if all these ornaments are attributed to unconscious causes, blind chance and deaf nature, everything here would have to be a miracle-working decorator and a wonderful inscriber able to write 1,000 books in a letter, and to display infinite-ly different forms of artistry in a single ornament.

Look at the inscriptions on these stones.108(108 This refers to humanity, the fruit of the Tree of Creation, and to the fruit that bears the program of its tree and its index. Whatever the Pen of Divine Power has inscribed in the great Book of the Universe has been compressed in our creation. Whatever the Pen of Divine Destiny has written in a huge tree has been included in its fingernail-sized fruit.)

Each contains the inscriptions of the whole palace, the laws for the city’s order, and the programs for organiz-ing the state. Given this, making all these inscriptions is as wonderful as mak-ing the state. So each inscription and instance of art is a proclamation of that hidden one and one of his seals. A letter indicates its writer, and an artistic inscription makes its inscriber known. Thus how can an inscriber, a designer, or a decorator, who inscribes a huge book in a single letter and displays 1,000 orna-ments in a single one, not be known through his inscriptions and ornaments?

SIXTH PROOF: Come onto this vast plain.109 (109 This signifies Earth’s face in spring and summer, when innumerable individuals of count-less species are brought into existence and “written” on Earth. They are recruited and may undergo changes without flaw and with perfect orderliness. Thousands of tables of the Most Merciful One are laid out and then removed and replaced with fresh ones. All trees are like bearers of trays, and all gardens are like cauldrons.)

We will climb to the top of that huge mountain to see the surrounding area. We use these binoculars, for curious things are happening in this land. Every hour things are happening that we never imagined.

Look! These mountains, plains, and towns are suddenly changing so that millions of new things can replace them with perfect orderliness, one within and after the other. The most curious transformations are occurring. It is as though innumerable kinds of cloths are being woven inside and among others. Familiar flowery things are being replaced in an orderly fashion with others of similar nature but different form. Everything is happening as if each plain and mountain is a page upon which infinite different books are being written with-out flaw or defect. It is inconceivable that these things, which display infinite art, skill, and exactness, come about on their own. Rather, they show the artist who engenders them. The one who does all these things displays such miracles, for nothing is difficult for him. It is as easy for him to write 1,000 books as to write one book.

Look around you. He puts everything in its proper place with such wisdom, pours his favor so generously on the needy and deserving, draws back and opens general veils and doors so bountifully that all are satisfied, and lays out such munificent tables that a feast of bounties is given to all people and ani-mals of this land. Indeed, the bounties are particular and suitable for each group and individual. How can all of this be attributed to chance, be purposeless or vain, or have many hands behind it? The only reasonable explanation is that their maker is powerful over everything, and that everything is subjugated to him. So, my friend, what pretext can you find to persist in your denial?

SEVENTH PROOF: Let’s turn to the mutual interrelations of this amazing palace-like world’s parts. Universal things are being done and general revolu-tions are taking place with such perfect orderliness that all rocks, soil, and trees in this palace obey this world’s general rules as if each were free to do whatever it wills. Things that are most distant come to each other’s aid. Look at that strange caravan coming from the unseen on mounts resembling trees, plants, and mountains.110(110 “Caravans” of plants and trees bearing the sustenance of all animals.)

Each member is carrying trays of food on its head and bring-ing it to the animals waiting on this side. Look at the mighty electric lamp in that dome.111 (111 An allusion to the sun.)

It not only provides light, but also cooks their food so well that the food to be cooked is attached to a string by an unseen hand and held out and offered.112 (112 The string and its attached food denote a tree’s slender branches and the delicious fruits thereon.)

See these impotent, weak, defenseless little animals. Over their heads are small, spring-like “pumps” full of delicate sustenance.113(113 The breasts of mothers.)

They only have to press their mouths against these pumps to be fed.

In short, all things in this world, as if positioned face-to-face, help each other. As though seeing each other, they cooperate with each other. To perfect each other’s work, they support each other and work together. Their ways of cooperation cannot be counted. All of this proves that everything is subjugat-ed to the builder of that wonderful palace, the real owner of this world. Everything works on his behalf, like a soldier carrying out his commands. Everything takes place by his power, moves by his command, and is arranged through his wisdom. Everything helps the others by his munificence, and every-thing is made to hasten to the aid of others through his compassion. O my friend, can you object to this?

EIGHTH PROOF: Come, O my friend who supposes yourself to be intelli-gent, as does my own selfhood. You do not want to recognize this magnificent palace’s owner although everything points to him, shows him, and testifies to him. How can you deny such testimony? Given this, you have to deny the palace as well and say: “There is no world, no state.” Deny your own existence, too, and disappear, or else come to your senses and listen to me.

In the palace are uniform elements and minerals that encompass the whole land.114 (114 Elements and minerals denote the elements of air, water, light, and soil, which perform numerous systematic duties: By Divine permission, they hasten to help all needy beings, enter everywhere by Divine command and provide help, convey the necessities of life, and “suckle” living creatures. They also function as the source, origin, and cradle for the weaving and decoration of Divine artifacts.)

Everything is made from them. This means that whoever owns them owns everything made from them, for whoever owns the field owns its crops, and whoever owns the sea owns its contents. These textiles and decorat-ed woven clothes are made from a single substance. Obviously, the one who creates the substance both prepares it and makes it into yarn, for such a work does not allow the participation of others. Therefore, all of the things skillful-ly woven out of it are particular to him.

All types of such woven things are found throughout the land. They are being made all together, one inside or among others, in the same way and at the same instant. They can be the work only of one person who does everything with one command. Otherwise such correspondence and conformity as regards time, fashion, and quality would be impossible. So, each skillfully made thing is proclaims that hidden one and points to him. It is as if each kind of flowered cloth, skillfully made machine, and delicious morsel is a stamp, a seal, a sign of that miracle-working one.

It is also as if each is saying in the language of its being: “Whoever owns me as a work of art also owns the boxes and shops in which I am found.” Each decoration says: “Whoever embroidered me also wove the roll of cloth in which I am located.” Each delicious morsel says: “Whoever cooked me also has the cooking pot in which I am located.” Each machine says: “Whoever made me also makes all those like me that are found throughout the land. The one who raises us everywhere is also the same. As this same person owns the land and this palace, he also must own us.” This is because the real owner of, say a car-tridge-belt or a button belonging to the state, has to own the factories in which they are made. If someone ignorantly claims ownership of it, it will be taken away. Such people will be punished for pretending to own the state’s property.

In short, if each element has permeated through every other and encom-passes the whole, their owner only can be the one who owns all the land. Since the instances of art found everywhere resemble each other and display the same stamp, whatever has spread throughout the land is evidently the work of a sin-gle person’s art. And, that one rules over everything. Thus there is a sign of oneness, a stamp of unity in this magnificent palace-like land. Some things are uniform, unique, and of the same nature, yet all-encompassing. Other things, though various and abundant, display a unity of grouping since they resemble each other and are found everywhere. Such unity declares the one of unity. That means that this land’s builder, host, and owner must be one and the same.

Look attentively. See how a thickish string has appeared from behind the veil of the Unseen.115(115 The “thick string” is a fruit-bearing tree, the strings are its branches, and the diamond decorations, favors, and gifts are the various flowers and fruits hung thereon.)

See how thousands of strings hang down from it. See their tips, to which have been attached diamonds, decorations, favors, and gifts. There is a gift particular to everyone. Can you be so foolish as not to recognize and thank the one who offers such wonderful favors and gifts from behind the veil of the Unseen? If you do not recognize him, you must argue: “The strings themselves make and offer these diamonds and other gifts.” In that case, you must attribute to each string the status and function of a king [who has a mirac-ulous power and knowledge to do whatever he wishes]. And all this, while before our very eyes an unseen hand is making the strings and attaching gifts to them!

Given the latter fact, everything in this palace points to that miracle-working one rather than to itself. If you do not recognize him, by denying what is occurring in the palace, you show a determined ignorance of a kind to which a truly human being must not sink.

NINTH PROOF: Come, O friend. You neither recognize nor want to recog-nize the palace’s owner because you deem his existence improbable. You deny because you cannot grasp his wonderful art and manner of acting. But how can all of these exquisite things, this wonderful existence, be explained without rec-ognizing him? If we recognize him, all this palace and its abundant contents are as easy to understand as a single thing in it.

If we do not recognize him and if he did not exist, one thing would be as hard to explain as the whole palace, for everything is as skillfully made as the palace. Things would not be so abundant and economical. No one could have any of these things that we see. Look at the jar of jam attached to that string.116 (116 The jar of jam denotes Mercy’s gifts (melons, watermelons, pomegranates, and coconuts like tins of milk), each of which is a conserve of Divine Power.)

If it had not been miraculously made in his hidden kitchen, we could not have bought it at any price. But now we buy it for a few cents.

Every kind of persistent difficulty and impossibility follows from not rec-ognizing him. A tree is given life from one root, through one law, and in one center. Therefore, forming thousands of fruits is as easy as forming one fruit. If this depended on different, particular centers and roots and on separate, partic-ular laws, each fruit would have been as hard to form as the tree. If an army’s equipment is produced in one factory, through one law, and in one center, it is done as easily as equipping one soldier. But if each soldier’s equipment is pro-cured from many places, then equipping one soldier would require as many fac-tories as needed for the whole army.

This is also true in this well-organized palace, splendid city, progressive state, and magnificent world. If the invention of all these things is attributed to one being, it is easy to account for their infinite abundance, availability, and munificence. Otherwise everything would be so costly and hard that the whole world would not be enough to buy a single thing.

TENTH PROOF: My friend, we have been here for 15 days.117(117 An allusion to the age of 15, the age of responsibility.)

If we still do not know and recognize this world’s rules, we deserve punishment. We have no excuses, because for 15 days we have not been interfered with, as though given respite. But neither have we been left to ourselves. We cannot wander about and cause disorder among creatures so delicate, well-balanced, subtle, skillfully made, and instructive as these. The majestic lord’s punishment must be severe.

How majestic and powerful he must be to have arranged this huge world like a palace and turn it as though a light wheel. He administers this vast coun-try like a house, missing nothing. Like filling a container and then emptying it, he continuously fills this palace, this city, this land with perfect orderliness and then empties it with perfect wisdom. Also, like setting up a table and then removing it, he lays out throughout the land, as though with an unseen hand, diverse tables with a great variety of foods one after the other, and then clears them away to bring new ones.118

(118 The tables denote Earth’s face in summer, during which hundreds of the Most Merciful One’s tables are prepared fresh and different in the kitchens of mercy, and then are laid down and removed continuously. Every garden is a cooking pot, and every tree is a tray-bearer.)

Seeing this and using your reason, you will understand that an infinite munificence is inherent in that awesome majesty.

Just as all these things testify to that unseen being’s unity and sovereignty, so these revolutions and changes occurring one after the other bear witness to his permanence. How so? For the causes of things disappear along with them, whereas the things we attribute to causes are repeated after them. So nothing can be attributed to causes; everything takes place as the work of an undying one. For example, sparkling bubbles on a river’s surface come and go, but new ones coming after them also sparkle. Therefore, what makes them sparkle is something constant standing high above the river and having permanent light. In the same way, the quick changes in this world and the things that replace the disappearing ones, assuming the same attributes, show that they are manifesta-tions, inscriptions, mirrors, and works of art of a permanent and undying one.

ELEVENTH PROOF: Come, O friend. Now I will show you another decisive proof as powerful as the previous ten proofs put together. Let’s board the ship and sail to that peninsula over there, for the keys to this mysterious world are there.119( 119 The ship refers to history, the peninsula to the place of Time of Happiness, and the age of the Prophet. Taking off the dress of modern civilization on the dark shore of this age, we sail on the ship of history over the sea of time, land on the Arabian peninsula in the Time of Happiness, and visit the Pride of Creation as he is carrying out his mission. We know that he is a proof of Divine Unity so brilliant that he illuminates the whole Earth and the two faces of time (past and future), and disperses the darkness of unbelief and misguidance.)

Moreover, everyone is looking to that peninsula, expecting something and receiving orders from there. We have landed. Look at the huge meeting over there, as if all the country’s important people have gathered. Look carefully, for this great community has a leader. Let’s approach nearer to learn about him. See his brilliant decorations—more than a thousand.120(120 A thousand decorations signify the Prophet’s miracles that, according to meticulous researchers, number around one thousand.)

How forcefully he speaks.

How pleasant is his conversation. I have learned a little of what he says during these 15 days, and you could learn the same from me. He is speaking about the country’s glorious miracle-displaying sovereign, who has sent him to us. See, he is displaying such wonders that we have to admit the truth of what he says.

Look carefully. Not only the peninsula’s creatures are listening to him; he is making his voice heard in wonderful fashion by the whole country. Near and far, everyone is trying to listen to his discourse, even animals. Even the moun-tains are listening to the commandments he has brought so that they are stir-ring in their places. Those trees move to the place to which he points. He brings forth water wherever he wishes. He makes his fingers like an abundant spring and lets others drink from them.

Look, that important lamp in the palace’s dome splits into two at his ges-ture.121 (121 The important lamp is the moon, which split into two at his gesture. As Mawlana Jami remarked: “That unlettered one who never wrote, wrote with the pen of his finger an alif [the first letter of the Arabic alphabet] on the page of the skies, and made one forty into two fifties.” In other words, before he split the moon, it resembled the Arabic letter mim, the mathematical value of which is forty. After splitting, it became two crescents resembling two nuns, the value of which is fifty.)

That means this whole land and its inhabitants recognize that he is an envoy. As though understanding that he is the most eminent and true transla-tor of an unseen miracle-displaying one, the herald of his sovereignty, the dis-closer of his talisman, and a trustworthy envoy communicating his command-ments, they heed and obey him. All around him, those who are sensible affirm whatever he says. By submitting to his commands and answering his beckon-ing, everything in this land, even the mountains, the trees, and the huge light that illuminates everywhere, affirm him.122 (122 The author refers to the mountains and trees answering the Prophet’s call. See The Nineteenth Letter’s ninth through twelfth signs in Said Nursi, The Letters (Turkey: The Light, Inc., 2002) (Tr.) The huge light is the sun. Once the Prophet was sleeping in ‘Ali’s arms, who did not wake him up out of deep love and respect for him. When the Prophet woke up, the sun was about to set, and ‘Ali had not yet prayed the afternoon prayer. Upon the Prophet’s order, Earth revolved a little backwards and the sun appeared above the horizon so ‘Ali could pray. This is one of the Prophet’s famous miracles.)

So, O friend, could there be any deception in the information brought by this most illustrious, magnificent, and serious of beings, who bears 1,000 deco-rations from the king’s royal treasury? His words about the miracle-displaying king are said with total conviction and confirmed by all the country’s notables, as is his description of the king’s attributes and communication of his com-mands. If you think they contain some deception, you must deny the existence and reality of this palace, those lamps, and this congregation. Your objections will be refuted by the proof’s power.

TWELFTH PROOF: You must have come to your senses a little. I will show you further proof as strong as the sum of the previous eleven proofs. Look at this illustrious decree,123 which has descended from above and which everyone looks upon with full attention out of amazement or veneration. That being with 1,000 decorations is explaining its meaning. The decree’s brilliant style attracts everyone’s admiration, and speaks of matters so important and serious that everyone feels compelled to listen. It describes all the acts, attributes, and commands of the one who governs this land, who made this palace, and exhibits these wonders. There is a mighty seal on the decree, an irresistible seal on every line and sentence. The meanings, truths, commandments, and instances of wisdom it provides are in a style unique to him, which also func-tions like a stamp or seal.

In short, this supreme decree shows that supreme being as clearly as the sun, so that one who is not blind can “see” him. If you have come to your sens-es, friend, this is enough for now. Do you have more objections?

The stubborn man replied: “In the face of all these proofs I can only say: ‘All praise be to God,’ for I have come to believe, in a way as bright as the sun and clear as daylight, that this land has a single Lord of Perfection, this world a single Owner of Majesty, and this palace a single Maker of Grace. May God be pleased with you for saving me from my former obstinacy and foolishness. Each proof is sufficient to demonstrate the truth. But with each successive proof, clearer and finer, more pleasant, agreeable, and radiant levels of knowl-edge, scenes of acquaintanceship, and windows of love were opened and revealed. I listened and learned.”

The parable indicating the mighty truth of Divine Unity and belief in God is completed. Through the grace of the Most Merciful, the enlightenment of the Qur’an, and the light of belief, I will now show, after an introduction, 12 gleams from the sun of Divine Unity, corresponding to the 12 proofs in the parable. Success and guidance are from God alone.

(This goes onto explain alot more things )

 

[RenegadeMx]

I am not motivated by a possible reward whose existence cannot be verified. How does that say anything about this? Homosexuality isn't harmful to society or the individual, in any way, physically, psychologically and sociologically.

If you do not have anything positive or neutral to say about homosexuality, then do not say anything about it at all.

homosexuality should be made illegal again before it leads western civilization to collapse

homos have higher suicide rates
homos are a direct threat to our way of life
homos have higher murder rates
homos are a cancer to society