Good stepping stone for finance students (2 Viewers)

[overfloat]

snoozeville

 

[§eraphim]

Accounting is mundane.

 

[seremify007]

Accounting is mundane.

The wise opinion on what is and isn't mundane from the Computing Consultant - School of Mathematics Computing Labs RC G012

LOL. But I agree, the Accounting subject is rather mundane.

 

[turtleface]

Why is Accounting always targeted as being boring? What isn't boring? I'd like to see anyone classify stuff like this as exciting.

http://www.ir.jameshardie.com.au/public/download.jsp?id=1800
(PDF file, it may take a moment to load)

I've been thinking about it,
Some people believe Accounting is boring because of the number crunching. Yet Finance and Actuarial are even bigger crunchers.
Some people believe Accounting is boring because it is difficult. But by all accounts Actuarial Studies is even more difficult.
Some people believe Accounting is boring cause theres too much shit to learn. What about Medicine?

Accounting is boring, but what isn't??

If anyone can tell me a high paying field that truly isn't boring, please do tell me.

 

[ND]

Some people believe Accounting is boring because it is difficult. But by all accounts Actuarial Studies is even more difficult.

Who thinks that?? There is definately an inverse relationship between difficulty and boringness.

Some people believe Accounting is boring cause theres too much shit to learn. What about Medicine?

Again, why would that make something boring?

If anyone can tell me a high paying field that truly isn't boring, please do tell me.

Trading, sales, structuring, quant finance, research, i could go on....

 

[redruM]

Who thinks that?? There is definately an inverse relationship between difficulty and boringness.



Again, why would that make something boring?



Trading, sales, structuring, quant finance, research, i could go on....

In other words, it is different for each individual...I find accounting boring, more often than I should.

 

[turtleface]

Who thinks that?? There is definately an inverse relationship between difficulty and boringness.

wtf have you done Accounting beyond the mandatory Actuary units? Maybe if you rote learn and memorise the basic journal entries, and use your Finance knowledge for the theory questions you can pass...I've never ever heard anyone discribe Accounting as easy, (unless they just rote learn and only do 1A and 1B or something). Accounting is so complex that noone understands everything there is to understand about the subject, hence why its boring because you get demotivated

Trading, sales, structuring, quant finance, research, i could go on....

well for starters a lot of what happens in structuring and research is accounting
anyway, I can see how exciting those jobs are...being married to Excel and all
Try doing that for 10 years and see if its still exciting...
no high paying job is not boring

Out of interest why do you consider them exciting?

Again, noone denies Accounting is boring. But what else isn't?


P.S. if you look at profiles of traders, equity analysts/researchers, deal and debt/equity structurers, about 33% are Accountants anyway.

 

[§eraphim]

Actuaries are smart ppl...they can get bored easily.

The jobs listed by ND are driven by the dynamic financial markets....every day is exciting as it is another day to make a profit!

- quant - pricing new products that are traded to identify arb for eg.
- research - using FA to find undervalued stocks,etc

Accounting is a cost centre. Finance brings in the revenue.

 

[turtleface]

lol sounds like a ferengi

I guess people have different measures of excitement.

For me Accounting and all the other crap is boring. I personally think that its risky to try and get your excitement in life from a job, though if you do manage, it'd be super to get paid for doing something that excites you.

 

[overfloat]

Why is Accounting always targeted as being boring? What isn't boring? I'd like to see anyone classify stuff like this as exciting.

http://www.ir.jameshardie.com.au/public/download.jsp?id=1800
(PDF file, it may take a moment to load)

I've been thinking about it,
Some people believe Accounting is boring because of the number crunching. Yet Finance and Actuarial are even bigger crunchers.
Some people believe Accounting is boring because it is difficult. But by all accounts Actuarial Studies is even more difficult.
Some people believe Accounting is boring cause theres too much shit to learn. What about Medicine?

Accounting is boring, but what isn't??

If anyone can tell me a high paying field that truly isn't boring, please do tell me.

alright you win... accounting isnt boring,
however, book keeping is the scourge of the business world

 

[ND]

wtf have you done Accounting beyond the mandatory Actuary units? Maybe if you rote learn and memorise the basic journal entries, and use your Finance knowledge for the theory questions you can pass...I've never ever heard anyone discribe Accounting as easy, (unless they just rote learn and only do 1A and 1B or something). Accounting is so complex that noone understands everything there is to understand about the subject, hence why its boring because you get demotivated

Firstly, i never even disputed your point that accounting was hard - i said that something difficult is more interesting (all else equal) than something easy. Maybe the fact that you assumed that i said that accounting was easy is telling you something.

Secondly, just because it's hard for you doesn't mean it's going to be hard for others. Difficultly is all relative - i'm sure actuarial studies would be a piece of piss for a PhD Physics student.

well for starters a lot of what happens in structuring and research is accounting
anyway, I can see how exciting those jobs are...being married to Excel and all
Try doing that for 10 years and see if its still exciting...
no high paying job is not boring

Out of interest why do you consider them exciting?

Again, noone denies Accounting is boring. But what else isn't?

Already covered by Seraphim.

P.S. if you look at profiles of traders, equity analysts/researchers, deal and debt/equity structurers, about 33% are Accountants anyway.

dictionary.reference.com:
"Accountant:
One that keeps, audits, and inspects the financial records of individuals or business concerns and prepares financial and tax reports."

How can a trader/researcher/structurer be an accountant? Accountant and (trader, researcher, strcuturer) are mutually exclusive.

 

[turtleface]

Firstly, i never even disputed your point that accounting was hard - i said that something difficult is more interesting (all else equal) than something easy. Maybe the fact that you assumed that i said that accounting was easy is telling you something.

apologies if I misinterpreted you, but you did say "Who thinks that??" to my statement of accounting being difficult and boring...it was a 50/50 guess as to whether you disputed meant the difficult or boring bit...and the latter seemed unlikey...

Secondly, just because it's hard for you doesn't mean it's going to be hard for others. Difficultly is all relative - i'm sure actuarial studies would be a piece of piss for a PhD Physics student.

how come actuarial studies be easy for a PhD Physics student? I'm pretty sure Physics research methods is not in anyway harder than some statistics and regression is it?

dictionary.reference.com:
"Accountant:
One that keeps, audits, and inspects the financial records of individuals or business concerns and prepares financial and tax reports."

How can a trader/researcher/structurer be an accountant? Accountant and (trader, researcher, strcuturer) are mutually exclusive.

Well lets forget about that definition because dictionaries are limited in their application, and obviously its a bit vague. But if these ppl are traders, researchers, structurers and are CA/CPA they are Accountants in the general sense of the word. An Accounting university lecturer is a researcher and also an Academic Accountant. A Trans Services spreadsheet monkey working on a M&A deal is still an Accountant...etc etc.

alright you win... accounting isnt boring,
however, book keeping is the scourge of the business world

First thing you said that I agree with Overfloat, it is very menial, but essential work. Bookkeeping is a subset of accounting though

 

[redruM]

An Accounting university lecturer is a researcher and also an Academic Accountant.

Bit of a tangent, but I was just wondering if all of the lecturers who are CA/CPA, worked (to gain the 3 years experience) or get their qualification another way?

 

[ND]

apologies if I misinterpreted you, but you did say "Who thinks that??" to my statement of accounting being difficult and boring...it was a 50/50 guess as to whether you disputed meant the difficult or boring bit...and the latter seemed unlikey...

It was directed at your statement as a whole (i.e. that some people think accounting is boring because it's hard).

how come actuarial studies be easy for a PhD Physics student? I'm pretty sure Physics research methods is not in anyway harder than some statistics and regression is it?

A physics PhD student will have done alot of mathematics and stochastic processes (the latter depending on what field of physics) - that is essentially what actuarial studies based on.

Well lets forget about that definition because dictionaries are limited in their application, and obviously its a bit vague. But if these ppl are traders, researchers, structurers and are CA/CPA they are Accountants in the general sense of the word. An Accounting university lecturer is a researcher and also an Academic Accountant. A Trans Services spreadsheet monkey working on a M&A deal is still an Accountant...etc etc.

Okay so are you saying that 1/3 traders and structurers are CA/CPAs? Where did you get that figure? There is a reason that banks look for grads from math/engineering/other quantitative areas for jobs in those fields.

And even if they were, how does that support your case that accounting isn't boring?

 

[turtleface]

Okay so are you saying that 1/3 traders and structurers are CA/CPAs? Where did you get that figure? There is a reason that banks look for grads from math/engineering/other quantitative areas for jobs in those fields.

Just picking a random sample:
http://www.mlcinvestmenttrust.com.au/cms/dynamic/resources/pdf/invSys/mlcis_mgr_concord.pdf
few pages down...
I'm really tired so I cbfed trying to find more..yes strictly not traders or structurers but i couldnt find profiles in the 30sec I spent on google

And even if they were, how does that support your case that accounting isn't boring?

huh? I think I've said about 10 times in this thread that Accounting is boring...
lets see...

For me Accounting and all the other crap is boring

Again, noone denies Accounting is boring. But what else isn't?

Accounting is so complex that noone understands everything there is to understand about the subject, hence why its boring because you get demotivated

Accounting is boring, but what isn't??

 

[turtleface]

ok found one, but this is an example where there are less Accountants than normal...maybe 20-25%

http://www.perpetual.com.au/wholesale/wholesale_team/asset_management_team.htm

There are pretty much 0 accountants at the start, but slowly you will see a multitude of CPAs, Certified Accountants, CMAs (Certified Management Accountants), ICAA members, ACAs etc...a rough count from me had about 8 out of 40 ppl.

Anyway this is a bad example to support my case, but the only one i could find in the last few minutes.

 

[ND]

Ok those didn't support your case at all. Firstly none of them are traders or structurers. Even if you are referring only to funds management (which clearly you weren't when you made the statement), in total there were 6/50 = 12% - nowhere near 1/3.

J
huh? I think I've said about 10 times in this thread that Accounting is boring...
lets see...

I meant boring relative to finance - you are obviously saying that it isn't. And you didn't answer my question: what does the proportion of CPAs/CAs working in finance support your point?

 

[turtleface]

I just can't find any profiles on Traders/QAs/Structurers etc. fund managers are the closet thing I could find. Maybe its cause the former roles are too boring for anyone to express interest in

Are you even looking at the same document? You'd think an Actuarial student would be a better number cruncher.

There are 40 people on that website, not "50".

11 are from Accounting backgrounds. This does not include unspecified degree people who may have done an Accounting major in their degree.

make sure you include the CMA, the 2 CPAs and the 2 CAs, the ACAs, as well as the BAcc, the two "Certified Accountants" and BCom (Acc) and the ex auditor. Actually I was wrong, thats 11 not my original estimate of 8.

11/40=28%, well not 33% but thats just a sample. And its more than double your 'calculation' of 12%

what does the proportion of CPAs/CAs working in finance support your point?

The point is obviously if CAs/CPAs can work in finance roles, Accounting and Finance is similar (which is axiomatic even without this point). So if Accounting is boring it logically follows that Finance should also be boring.

 

[ND]

I just can't find any profiles on Traders/QAs/Structurers etc. fund managers are the closet thing I could find. Maybe its cause the former roles are too boring for anyone to express interest in

Yeh, that's probably the reason. :rofl:

Are you even looking at the same document? You'd think an Actuarial student would be a better number cruncher.

There are 40 people on that website, not "50".

11 are from Accounting backgrounds. This does not include unspecified degree people who may have done an Accounting major in their degree.

make sure you include the CMA, the 2 CPAs and the 2 CAs, the ACAs, as well as the BAcc, the two "Certified Accountants" and BCom (Acc) and the ex auditor. Actually I was wrong, thats 11 not my original estimate of 8.

11/40=28%, well not 33% but thats just a sample. And its more than double your 'calculation' of 12%

Concord Capital: There are 9 people listed, 2 are CPA.

Perpetual: 41 listed, 4 are CPA or CA.

This gives a total of 6/50. You'd think an accounting student would have half a brain.

I didn't know what a CMA or ACA was, so i didn't include them (even with their inclusion, the proportion isn't anywhere near 1/3). You can't include people with just an accounting degree - if i become a trader, does that mean i'm an actuary just because i hold an undergrad actuarial degree?

The point is obviously if CAs/CPAs can work in finance roles, Accounting and Finance is similar (which is axiomatic even without this point). So if Accounting is boring it logically follows that Finance should also be boring.

Holy crap that is the most fucked up logic i've ever heard.

There are a number of people with actuarial degrees working in management consulting. Then obviously actuarial and MC are similar. So if actuarial is boring, then MC is boring.

Yep spot on.

 

[turtleface]

CMAs are Certified Management Accountants
ACAs are either Associates of the ICAA or CAs from England
I'd say they are Accountants

It'd be good if you actually read my posts properly so it saves me from repeating my crap and sounding like a broken record

Obviously its stupid to include someone with a BAcc as an Accountant, but as I said earlier I haven't. the people I did include had snippets of information like this "

involving responsibility...accounting and information systems". That looks like an "accounting background" to me, as it would to any reasonable person.

By disputing my calculations you are essentially saying (e.g.) Trevor O'Hoy is not from an Accounting background, even though he started as a Management Accountant with CUB and also later the CFO of Fosters, because he is not a CPA. duh....

If I had of included people in my count simply because they studied Accounting, then the majority of people would be there since CFAs have to do about 2 accounting modules in the program.

So that makes 5/9 for the pdf, and 11/40 for the link. = 32.65%. Jeesh SORRY! it's not spot on 33% lets all have a cry!!!​

Now I cbfed going through Perpetual, but lets go through the Pdf so I can justify how I've come to the conclusion 5/9 fund managers in that lot are from Accounting backgrounds.

1. Matthew Todd - CPA, self explanatory (1)
2. Garry Duncan - MAcc, by itself no but Analyst can mean a lot of things and I tend to believe its Accounting related. I'll probably count this guy as half, along with no. 9 (2)
3. Katrina Onishi - no
4. Chris Haynes - CPA (3)
5. Martin Hickling - no
6. Richard Douglas - BA (Acc) and also had job involving "Accounting and Info Sys" functions (4)
7. Joe Cruz - Fund Accountant, Client Accountant is listed as past job (5)
8. Carolyn Kiffen - probably not
9. Anne Percent - maybe, cause Bus Analysts in companies are often Accountants. I'll count her as half with no.2
There it is...5/9 (55.6% for the Actuaries). No. 2 and 9 are both a bit iffy, so I've counted only 1 of them for fairness.

Anyway I've had enough of this. I don't care if you think being a Quantitative Analyst or a Trader or a structurer or whatever is any more "fun" than being an Accountant. Just don't forget about what I've been trying to get across to you when you're trying to work through your 5000th spreadsheet.

Personally I think doing Auditing, Liquidations and Litigation Support as a Forensic Accountant, whilst boring, is much better than being a QA, trader or a spreadsheet bum or whatever Finance gets you in nowdays