homosexuals (4 Viewers)

[qawe]

It's not about coercion, it's about pre-determination. Making free will illusory.

I think this becomes a very difficult topic to argue, as some Christians actually believe what you're saying

 

[qawe]

I think with qawe's line of argument - he made a point before. If you got a person to go into a room to pick from a red and green box, and you knew he was going to pick the green box beforehand - it doesn't mean you coerced him to pick the green box, it just means you know. I think that's what he was getting at.

exactly.
in regard to england vs china (assuming that there are more "true" Christians in ENgland) all this means is that if u select one person at random that is the case, however being born in a certain country does not make u any less able to go to heaven, in the end its based on ur faith and actions

 

[AgentGreeny]

there's nothing wrong with righteous anger. "Be angry and do not sin" Psalm 4



imo the creator of the universe doesn't hate any people


(take the bold parts in order)
you've emboldened the very flaw in your argument. where does it say that? in fact, the ot continually refers to a redeemer, that will come, who will change everything
because im looking at the bible from the perspective of a christian not a jew
i don't condone those acts. the point is that jesus has called us to a more excellent way than the Law which was meant for human weakness, so now there is no killing
name one example when western morality trumps the bible. of course, as a christian, i follow the laws of any country (entrenched in which are certain levels of morality) which do not conflict with the bible, and I only oppose (which you interpret as emotionally implicated) those things which do (eg homosexuality)



he created them with a good nature, but with free will to go against this if they wished

he knew, but this doesn't diminish one's responsibility for their own actions



1. eg I send someone into a room with a red and green box and tell them to choose one. You know that he's going to choose the red one, but does that constitute any sort of coercion to choose it

2. are you God? Do you know everything?

3. how do you know it's immoral? in any case these finite crimes constitute something much bigger, a complete rejection of God. old testament on eternal punishment: Daniel 12:2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

1. I create a robot. The robot is programmed to go in a room and pick a red box. It goes in the room and picks the green box, so I put it inside an incinerator for eternity. Wouldn't it make more sense to go back to the robot design and figure out where I screwed up in designing it to pick a red box if it failed to do that, instead of punishing the robot?

2. In the scenario I was describing I was god and I did know everything. And I can't conceive of a scenario where a god who knew everything would hate gay people. I just don't see the logic in it, yes the god that doesn't exist could have a reason I don't understand, but for now I fail to see any legitimate reason why a creator of everything would hate something he ultimately created.

3. You ask how do I know it's immoral to punish someone for eternity for a finite crime? And then you go on to say that because those finite crimes might break old testament law supposedly CREATED by your god, by breaking those laws it's in some way justified for him to send us to a hell he created instead of giving us everlasting happiness when he can do so at the snap of his fingers?

I think he created a pretty screwed up system imo.

 

[AgentGreeny]

You don't. You've just got to have faith.

Faith: The license people give each other to believe something they have no reason to believe

 

[qawe]

Any bible verse to back that up...? Or is that just "He is God, he knows all, so clearly he knows whether I'm going to heaven".

there is a bible verse to back bold up, and what follows is a natural consequence

also
For whom he did foreknow, [Paul clearly states,] He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified (Romans 8:29,30).

 

[qawe]

Faith: The license people give each other to believe something they have no reason to believe

like "there is no god"!

 

[AgentGreeny]

like "there is no god"!

You have no reason to believe "there is no santa". You best be starting on that Christmas list to leave out when he stops by.

 

[qawe]

1. I create a robot. The robot is programmed to go in a room and pick a red box. It goes in the room and picks the green box, so I put it inside an incinerator for eternity. Wouldn't it make more sense to go back to the robot design and figure out where I screwed up in designing it to pick a red box if it failed to do that, instead of punishing the robot?

2. In the scenario I was describing I was god and I did know everything. And I can't conceive of a scenario where a god who knew everything would hate gay people. I just don't see the logic in it, yes the god that doesn't exist could have a reason I don't understand, but for now I fail to see any legitimate reason why a creator of everything would hate something he ultimately created.

3. You ask how do I know it's immoral to punish someone for eternity for a finite crime? And then you go on to say that because those finite crimes might break old testament law supposedly CREATED by your god, by breaking those laws it's in some way justified for him to send us to a hell he created instead of giving us everlasting happiness when he can do so at the snap of his fingers?

I think he created a pretty screwed up system imo.

the flaw starts with the initial premise: humans are not robots, that's the whole point of the doctrine of free will, otherwise how could we be accountable for our sins, our sin is our fault

God doesn't hate gay ppl - he loves all sinners

Maybe that explanation was slightly off, here's a better one: All good things come from God, therefore a rejection of God (sin) will never lead to good consequences, therefore it is not possible that there be any good thing in the afterlife for those who reject God. "The wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23

 

[qawe]

You have no reason to believe "there is no santa". You best be starting on that Christmas list and put out some biscuits or something.

yes there is. he is supposed to come to my christmas tree (visibly) every Christmas night, if I don't see him then he doesn't exist

 

[RANK 1]

yes there is. he is supposed to come to my christmas tree (visibly) every Christmas night, if I don't see him then he doesn't exist

god is supposed to be perfect, so by logic that would mean everything he makes would be perfect, however thats obviously not the case

 

[AgentGreeny]

yes there is. he is supposed to come to my christmas tree (visibly) every Christmas night, if I don't see him then he doesn't exist

God is supposed to answer people when they pray, why can't he seem to do anything that doesn't happen anyway? And just like santa I would say that if I don't see him then he doesn't exist.

Matthew 17:20 "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

What about say, an amputee? There are amputees with faith far greater than a mustard seed who pray for new limbs all the time, if moving a mountain isn't too much trouble then just 1 new limb for someone, somewhere, might be a nice surprise?

He only seems to answer the "I need a new job" or "I have a relative in the hospital" prayers, the ones that are able to go either way. If things work out then it's "yay three cheers for god!" but if things don't work out then people look the other way and chalk it up to "god's will."

 

[qawe]

Yes but i quoted the "redeemer". This is the guy who you believe changes everything just outlining a very draconian practice (i'm trying to be as polite as i can here lol). Again to the rest of your points, i've quoted from the NT, not the OT. Your redeemer said these things.
As for your last part, i think the above example of killing those who speak against their parents answers that. Haven't you ever wondered why what it means to be 'christian' has changed throughout these 2000 years?

Let's see what He actually says: 1 Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’;[a] and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’[c] Thus you have made the commandment[d] of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And[e]honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

Matthew 15:1-10

Jesus is talking to the Pharisees, saying they are hypocrites as they don't enforce the whole Law themselves (Jesus hadn't died yet, so the Law had not been fulfilled). christians are not bound by the Law, as that was the Old Covenant (there should be know debate here, it is discussed extensively in Paul's epistles, especially Hebrews)

see above

"Christians" have never advocated killing ppl who don't follow their parents, as that is part of the Law (and I have discussed this in detail earlier, with supporting evidence)

 

[RANK 1]

ty −273.15 °C, u just got me my second green bar.

 

[qawe]

God is supposed to answer people when they pray, why can't he seem to do anything that doesn't happen anyway? And just like santa I would say that if I don't see him then he doesn't exist.

Matthew 17:20 "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."

What about say, an amputee? There are amputees with faith far greater than a mustard seed who pray for new limbs all the time, if moving a mountain isn't too much trouble then just 1 new limb for someone, somewhere, might be a nice surprise?

He only seems to answer the "I need a new job" or "I have a relative in the hospital" prayers, if things work out then it's "yay three cheers for god!" but if things don't work out then people look the other way and chalk it up to "god's will."

but God hasn't said you'll see me physically here ar x o'clock on such a day, if he did it would be a different story

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_the_Tanner#The_miracle_of_moving_the_mountain

re next 2 points: obviously if u dont believe in God you'll see this as a pathetic lie, but if u do you'll see this as God always does the best for u, so that amputee was better off (only God can understand this, esp. at the time of the events itself without hindsight) to stay as he is. it sounds harsh to u, but what's the point of a God if we kno what's best for us?

 

[AgentGreeny]

but God hasn't said you'll see me physically here ar x o'clock on such a day, if he did it would be a different story

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_the_Tanner#The_miracle_of_moving_the_mountain

re next 2 points: obviously if u dont believe in God you'll see this as a pathetic lie, but if u do you'll see this as God always does the best for u, so that amputee was better off (only God can understand this, esp. at the time of the events itself without hindsight) to stay as he is. it sounds harsh to u, but what's the point of a God if we kno what's best for us?

So "nothing will be impossible for you" ... except growing a limb, because we can potentially rationalise a situation where it's better for an amputee to live without a limb than to grow a new one and only god understands why?

 

[RANK 1]

but God hasn't said you'll see me physically here ar x o'clock on such a day, if he did it would be a different story

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_the_Tanner#The_miracle_of_moving_the_mountain

re next 2 points: obviously if u dont believe in God you'll see this as a pathetic lie, but if u do you'll see this as God always does the best for u, so that amputee was better off (only God can understand this, esp. at the time of the events itself without hindsight) to stay as he is. it sounds harsh to u, but what's the point of a God if we kno what's best for us?

so first its 'god gave us free will, thats why he doesnt interfere with human activities' and now its 'god caused u to lose ur arm, because he knows wats best for u'. u cant have both

 

[Shadowdude]

Okay this thread got confusing... someone give me a tl;dr?

 

[AgentGreeny]

Okay this thread got confusing... someone give me a tl;dr?

Atheists dropping truth bombs.
Christians rationalising for an imaginary god.

 

[qawe]

so first its 'god gave us free will, thats why he doesnt interfere with human activities' and now its 'god caused u to lose ur arm, because he knows wats best for u'. u cant have both

God gave us free will in terms of sinning and not sinning, that is why it is not rational to say that our sin is not our fault; god allowed u to lose ur arm doesn't affect ur free will to sin or not sin

 

[RANK 1]

God gave us free will in terms of sinning and not sinning, that is why it is not rational to say that our sin is not our fault; god allowed u to lose ur arm doesn't affect ur free will to sin or not sin

so you're saying that rather than use his powers to help all those starving children in third world countries and other world problems, he'd rather use it to help a person lose their arm because its what's best for them in hindsight