Islamic society dicussion in history (2 Viewers)

[Zayd]

i am starting to think the reason islam spread so rapidly when it was first introduced is because it was basically a superior system in almost every way to what was available at the time, i very much doubt it was picked for its religious reasons[ take the 1 god thing, alot of religions didnt have that, so i dont know why it would be appealing] but a man has to beleive in something i guess.

I think there is alot of arrogance in the islamic world, a feeling of superiority perhaps[ to be fair alot of other religions have it aswell] but what is worse is a uniform unwillingness to change, sometimes change is for the best, sometimesnot. Comprimises have to be made.

Before you go on with ur assumptions, why don't you have a look at current stats. Clearly Islam, by far, is still "THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION IN THE WORLD". Even though, Islam isn't considered a superior system by non-muslims. So i dont see your point
I will also add, that 80% of the people who accept Islam are WOMEN. Funny isn't it, considering the constant bashing by the media in regards to ISLAM oppressing women, and so on. Yet, 8 out 10 people who accept Islam are women.
something that should be deeply considered

 

[sly fly]

With me personally, while I do wear hijab for modesty and chastity reasons, there's another main reason why I wear it too - which has benefitted me a great deal.

See, the goal of every Muslim is to be in the constant state of 'taqwa', which in English means 'god consciousness'.......which consists not only of being conscious of God, but at the same time fully realising the implications of everything you do (ie. of sins) and thus abstaining from sins. When I'm wearing hijab, because it's a physical thing which is actually there with me, it actually makes me more conscious of God. When you don't have something physically there to remind you, it is difficult to always be remembering God.

This leads on to my next point. In Islam, there is the ''inner hijab'' and the ''outer hijab'' (ie.physical hijab)......the former being more important than the latter. The inner hijab is to purify oneself and be a good pious person etc. Because of all this controversy regarding Muslims in the west lately, the role of hijab plays a bigger role. When I'm out in the public wearing hijab, because hijab is something which instantly identifies me as a Muslim, I'm alot more self disciplined when it comes to committing sins (eg: backbiting, being rude to ppl, swearing, stealing etc etc). So, not only do I abstain from these things because they are bad and they're sins, but also because if I engage in these acts, it will reflect badly on Islam which is the last thing we need. So thanks to hijab, I've been able to abstain from many sins and thus become a better person.

I don't know if I expressed myself very well, but I guess what I mean is that I feel privileged that God has given us women the role of being the ambassadors of Islam (you men are useless ) and that has helped me, more than anything else, to become a better person and build my inner hijab.

 

[sly fly]

serius- in regards to your point about inheritance and her brother being a b******d and she has little to support her family on etc...........in Islam, the woman is under NO RESPONSIBILITY to support her family, it is entirely left up to the man.......whatever money she has or makes, is entirely her own and she is under no obligation to spend it on anyone else

 

[Serius]

so when the husband dies or leaves or something, who supports the widow and her children? i am sure any good mother would feel it is her responsability to feed starving children with the money she has instead os saying"oops not my responsablity sorry, go beg off uncle bastard"
maybe i am missing something here and the responsability is carefully laid out in this case[like reverting to the wifes father perhaps?]
i didnt think of the whole reminding ones self of god thing. Its true that th hijab identifies you as muslim, when i see a girl wearing it i usually look at her, see if she is attractive or not, looks middle-eastern or not[ see some american girl- wtf? lol] i might even strike up a convo just for the hell of it

zayd, how about some evidence man, dont just make claims like that. Even if what you are saying is true, my feelings of women being oppressed and forced into being a muslim are still valid, meaning that in countries that do this like Iran, they arent actual beleivers, they are the fearful human majority being forced into it by the ruling male class.
and about islam being so fast growing, i dunno about this, it certainly has its merrits and isnt that bad of a choice if you had to pick something to beleive in alot of religions are pretty similiar in my mind, but maybe its to do with the birthrate in muslim coutries?
perhaps a statement saying the fastest growing religion should more specifically refer to converts from a non-islamic country.

 

[sly fly]

so when the husband dies or leaves or something, who supports the widow and her children? i am sure any good mother would feel it is her responsability to feed starving children with the money she has instead os saying"oops not my responsablity sorry, go beg off uncle bastard"
maybe i am missing something here and the responsability is carefully laid out in this case[like reverting to the wifes father perhaps?]
i didnt think of the whole reminding ones self of god thing. Its true that th hijab identifies you as muslim, when i see a girl wearing it i usually look at her, see if she is attractive or not, looks middle-eastern or not[ see some american girl- wtf? lol] i might even strike up a convo just for the hell of it

Well that's why the woman get's a dowry before she marries the guy (usually a sum of money, otherwise gold or something). The main purpose of the dowry is so that, should something happen where she has to be financially independent (like widowed or divorced), that money is there for her financial needs. Also, if her husband dies, she inherits money from his death. In addition, as far as I'm aware, if a woman is widowed, Islamically, it is the governments (obviously in this scenario, an Islamic state) responsibility to pay her benefits. And ofcourse, there's the money she has from working (if she worked and didn't spend it all). Ofcourse, when the husband dies, it becomes her responsibility to take care of the children (I'm 99% sure but not absolutley positive on this)..........and she'd use all these financial means to do it. Also, about this comment - ''i am sure any good mother would feel it is her responsability to feed starving children with the money she has instead os saying"oops not my responsablity sorry, go beg off uncle bastard", I agree. The woman is not obligated to spend her money on the family but she can out of her own goodwill (which most mothers would). So just because she doesn't have to doesn't mean she can't (in fact, it's islamically highly recommended to spend some of her money on her family).

Yeah, I strike up convos with random hijabi's too ....especially the anglo looking ones. What uni do you go to?

Oh and it's true about Islam being the fastest growing religion.....especially after 9/11, the amount of converts to Islam, in the US in particular, skyrocketed.

 

[sly fly]

zayd, how about some evidence man, dont just make claims like that. Even if what you are saying is true, my feelings of women being oppressed and forced into being a muslim are still valid, meaning that in countries that do this like Iran, they arent actual beleivers, they are the fearful human majority being forced into it by the ruling male class.
and about islam being so fast growing, i dunno about this, it certainly has its merrits and isnt that bad of a choice if you had to pick something to beleive in alot of religions are pretty similiar in my mind, but maybe its to do with the birthrate in muslim coutries?
perhaps a statement saying the fastest growing religion should more specifically refer to converts from a non-islamic country.

Why European women are turning to Islam

By Peter Ford | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

PARIS – Mary Fallot looks as unlike a terrorist suspect as one could possibly imagine: a petite and demure white Frenchwoman chatting with friends on a cell-phone, indistinguishable from any other young woman in the café where she sits sipping coffee.
And that is exactly why European antiterrorist authorities have their eyes on thousands like her across the continent.

Ms. Fallot is a recent convert to Islam. In the eyes of the police, that makes her potentially dangerous.

The death of Muriel Degauque, a Belgian convert who blew herself up in a suicide attack on US troops in Iraq last month, has drawn fresh attention to the rising number of Islamic converts in Europe, most of them women.

"The phenomenon is booming, and it worries us," the head of the French domestic intelligence agency, Pascal Mailhos, told the Paris-based newspaper Le Monde in a recent interview. "But we must absolutely avoid lumping everyone together."

The difficulty, security experts explain, is that while the police may be alert to possible threats from young men of Middle Eastern origin, they are more relaxed about white European women. Terrorists can use converts who "have added operational benefits in very tight security situations" where they might not attract attention, says Magnus Ranstorp, a terrorism expert at the Swedish National Defense College in Stockholm.

Ms. Fallot, who converted to Islam three years ago after asking herself spiritual questions to which she found no answers in her childhood Catholicism, says she finds the suspicion her new religion attracts "wounding." "For me," she adds, "Islam is a message of love, of tolerance and peace."

It is a message that appeals to more and more Europeans as curiosity about Islam has grown since 9/11, say both Muslim and non-Muslim researchers. Although there are no precise figures, observers who monitor Europe's Muslim population estimate that several thousand men and women convert each year.

Only a fraction of converts are attracted to radical strands of Islam, they point out, and even fewer are drawn into violence. A handful have been convicted of terrorist offenses, such as Richard Reid, the "shoe bomber" and American John Walker Lindh, who was captured in Afghanistan.

Admittedly patchy research suggests that more women than men convert, experts say, but that - contrary to popular perception - only a minority do so in order to marry Muslim men.

"That used to be the most common way, but recently more [women] are coming out of conviction," says Haifa Jawad, who teaches at Birmingham University in Britain. Though non-Muslim men must convert in order to marry a Muslim woman, she points out, the opposite is not true.

Fallot laughs when she is asked whether her love life had anything to do with her decision. "When I told my colleagues at work that I had converted, their first reaction was to ask whether I had a Muslim boyfriend," she recalls. "They couldn't believe I had done it of my own free will."

In fact, she explains, she liked the way "Islam demands a closeness to God. Islam is simpler, more rigorous, and it's easier because it is explicit. I was looking for a framework; man needs rules and behavior to follow. Christianity did not give me the same reference points."

Those reasons reflect many female converts' thinking, say experts who have studied the phenomenon. "A lot of women are reacting to the moral uncertainties of Western society," says Dr. Jawad. "They like the sense of belonging and caring and sharing that Islam offers."

Others are attracted by "a certain idea of womanhood and manhood that Islam offers," suggests Karin van Nieuwkerk, who has studied Dutch women converts. "There is more space for family and motherhood in Islam, and women are not sex objects."

At the same time, argues Sarah Joseph, an English convert who founded "Emel," a Muslim lifestyle magazine, "the idea that all women converts are looking for a nice cocooned lifestyle away from the excesses of Western feminism is not exactly accurate."

Some converts give their decision a political meaning, says Stefano Allievi, a professor at Padua University in Italy. "Islam offers a spiritualization of politics, the idea of a sacred order," he says. "But that is a very masculine way to understand the world" and rarely appeals to women, he adds.

After making their decision, some converts take things slowly, adopting Muslim customs bit by bit: Fallot, for example, does not yet feel ready to wear a head scarf, though she is wearing longer and looser clothes than she used to.

Others jump right in, eager for the exoticism of a new religion, and become much more pious than fellow mosque-goers who were born into Islam. Such converts, taking an absolutist approach, appear to be the ones most easily led into extremism.

The early stages of a convert's discovery of Islam "can be quite a sensitive time," says Batool al-Toma, who runs the "New Muslims" program at the Islamic Foundation in Leicester, England.

"You are not confident of your knowledge, you are a newcomer, and you could be prey to a lot of different people either acting individually or as members of an organization," Ms. Al-Toma explains. A few converts feel "such a huge desire to fit in and be accepted that they are ready to do just about anything," she says.

"New converts feel they have to prove themselves," adds Dr. Ranstorp. "Those who seek more extreme ways of proving themselves can become extraordinarily easy prey to manipulation."

At the same time, says al-Toma, converts seeking respite in Islam from a troubled past - such as Degauque, who had reportedly drifted in and out of drugs and jobs before converting to Islam - might be persuaded that such an "ultimate action" as a suicide bomb attack offered an opportunity for salvation and forgiveness.

"The saddest conclusion" al-Toma draws from Degauque's death in Iraq is that "a woman who set out on the road to inner peace became a victim of people who set out to use and abuse her."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1227/p01s04-woeu.html

that isn't exactly what you asked for but I had the article so I thought I'd post it

 

[tempco]

Its impossible to compare the number of rapes in Australia to those in Pakistan, as it has a population 9 times greater than that of Australia's. Why don't you compare Pakistan's rape stats to the rape stats in the US?

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=20658&st=0&#entry314776

According to The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, every two hours a woman is raped in Pakistan and every eight hours a woman is subjected to gang rape. While these figures are derived from reported incidents in 2002, the frequency of rapes is in reality much higher. The combination of social taboos, discriminatory laws and victimization at the hands of the police are key reasons why many rapes remain unreported.

 

[HotShot]

ut the overhwelming majority do it out of their free will. the increasing number of muslim women choosing to wear it in australia is a testament to that. noone is forcing us here. there is no extremist government pressuring us to remain covered. and for your info hotshot, hijab is a religious command but in practise, women have the choice to wear it.

I doubt the overwhelming majority do out of 'free will', thats an excuse. I feel its bit like peer pressure, the quran says so we have to. And this isnt free choice, free choice is your choice, and u shouldnt have any pressure to go on side. Like for example, would a muslim wearing a hijab have the same status as one not wearing a hijab in Arab Countries?

As for hijab preventing rapes is pure bullshit. A good exampl e that imam who said its not the man's fault but the women's? if you dont realise wearing the hijab essentially in principle (according to islam) means that if you are raped its your fault.

Now as for you claims that AUstralia has more rapes involving women who dont wear hijab - how many women wear a hijab in Australia, how many women are raped in Australia? the figures are too small and really dont offer an interpretation.

As for you who would i rape? a women wearing a hijab. or not wearin one. Assume i am a rapist, i would rape as generator said, the women that is there regardless of hijab or not, if both are there if i can i would rape both. A piece of cloth makes no difference - ask a rapist?

Read pls:

http://www.brisinst.org.au/resources/brisbane_institute_kabir_moore_muslim.html

 

[Zayd]

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/index.php?showtopic=20658&st=0&#entry314776

American rape stats:
An F.B.I report in the year 1990 says that 1,02,555 cases of rape were reported.
According to National Crime Victimization Survey Bureau of Justice Statistics (U. S. Dept. of Justice) in 1996 alone 3,07,000 cases of rape were reported. Only 31% of the actual cases of rape were reported. Thus, 3,07,000 X 3.226 = 9,90,322 rapes took place in 1996. That is, an average of 2,713 cases of rape took place everyday in America in 1996. Every 32 seconds one rape is taking place in America.
these stats go back 10 years........

 

[Zayd]

I doubt the overwhelming majority do out of 'free will', thats an excuse. I feel its bit like peer pressure, the quran says so we have to. And this isnt free choice, free choice is your choice, and u shouldnt have any pressure to go on side. Like for example, would a muslim wearing a hijab have the same status as one not wearing a hijab in Arab Countries?

As for hijab preventing rapes is pure bullshit. A good exampl e that imam who said its not the man's fault but the women's? if you dont realise wearing the hijab essentially in principle (according to islam) means that if you are raped its your fault.

Now as for you claims that AUstralia has more rapes involving women who dont wear hijab - how many women wear a hijab in Australia, how many women are raped in Australia? the figures are too small and really dont offer an interpretation.

As for you who would i rape? a women wearing a hijab. or not wearin one. Assume i am a rapist, i would rape as generator said, the women that is there regardless of hijab or not, if both are there if i can i would rape both. A piece of cloth makes no difference - ask a rapist?

Read pls:

http://www.brisinst.org.au/resources/brisbane_institute_kabir_moore_muslim.html

hotshot as far as i know.......even when considering how sick and desperate rapist are and the fact that they don't care about how their victim looks......considering a situation where a female in a mini skirt and a female in a hijab are present with a rapist.....even some1 as sick as him.....will go for the one who is exposing maximum skin, cozz atleast he knows what his in for and wht he will get out of the awful act.
Its about time everyone starts thinking straight, and we accept that in such a situation the effects of the HIJAB are significant and the one wearing it has the least chances of being raped.
Hotshot.......when you say muslim women wear the Hijab only bcozz the Quran says so......"the Quran also states there is NO COMPULSION in Religion" (like Anam indicated in her previous post). I think people should understand the fact that Islam is not a BURDEN, and its ENTIRELY up to the INDIVIDUAL female and MALE to live a life of modesty by accepting the HIJAB.

 

[tempco]

American rape stats:
An F.B.I report in the year 1990 says that 1,02,555 cases of rape were reported.
According to National Crime Victimization Survey Bureau of Justice Statistics (U. S. Dept. of Justice) in 1996 alone 3,07,000 cases of rape were reported. Only 31% of the actual cases of rape were reported. Thus, 3,07,000 X 3.226 = 9,90,322 rapes took place in 1996. That is, an average of 2,713 cases of rape took place everyday in America in 1996. Every 32 seconds one rape is taking place in America.
these stats go back 10 years........

*Sigh*

1. The number of rape cases that go unreported in the US pales in comparison the those that are unreported in Pakistan. I'm assuming you've read the first post of the thread link I posted - so you'd understand why rape victims aren't willing to report rape cases.

On top of that, the number of rapes in Pakistan aren't even documented (or released) by domestic groups. We have to rely on human rights organisations like Amnesty International, who have limited access to facts and figures.

2. Muslims have a habit of pointing the finger to other societies with the mentality that goes along the lines of "look, they're doing it too!". It makes them look stupid and hypocritical.

 

[tempco]

Was it actually what the victims were supposedly wearing or was it what the rapists thought of the entire cultural paradigm that the clothing supposedly represented? I'm fairly certain that it was the latter - it indicated a total lack of respect and a warped sense of power, not a 'lustful' exercise.

I stand corrected. It's a shame that the majority of people blame religion as the causal factor, though.

 

[sly fly]

Well I used to not wear hijab and now I do, and I hardly ever get hassled on the streets, guys asking for my number etc anymore............so you people who think hijab does nothing are very wrong. Maybe some of you (if you're females obviously) should try wearing hijab for a day and experience the difference firsthand.

 

[Zayd]

*Sigh*

1. The number of rape cases that go unreported in the US pales in comparison the those that are unreported in Pakistan. I'm assuming you've read the first post of the thread link I posted - so you'd understand why rape victims aren't willing to report rape cases.

On top of that, the number of rapes in Pakistan aren't even documented (or released) by domestic groups. We have to rely on human rights organisations like Amnesty International, who have limited access to facts and figures.

2. Muslims have a habit of pointing the finger to other societies with the mentality that goes along the lines of "look, they're doing it too!". It makes them look stupid and hypocritical.

Im not playing the blame game niether do i intent to be hypocritical. Im just stating stats that show America is the same or worse than Pakistan when it comes to rape. Im not using the US as a defencive approach to back the rape stats in Pakistan.

By the way, using Pakistan as a comparision is not worthwhile considering the country isnt based upon the Sharia Law. In the other hand, if you use Saudia Arabia as a comparision to the US or Pak, the signicant benefits of capital punishment (for rapist) and Hijab are evident.
If the US and Pakistan were to adopt such laws as capital punishment.......women would breathe a whole lot easier in those parts of the world.

 

[Zayd]

*Sigh*

1. The number of rape cases that go unreported in the US pales in comparison the those that are unreported in Pakistan.

QUOTE]

You really have no evidence to back that up. However, my post clearly indicated that the stats that were gathered for the number of rapes in the US, were only 31% of the total number of "ACTUAL" rapes. And that to was an approximation.

 

[tempco]

You really have no evidence to back that up. However, my post clearly indicated that the stats that were gathered for the number of rapes in the US, were only 31% of the total number of "ACTUAL" rapes. And that to was an approximation.

If you were raped in a park and required four male Muslim witnesses to prove that you were raped (and if you didn't, you would be either stoned to death or lashed), would you report your rape case?

Regardless of how bad the US is, Pakistan (and many other "Islamic" nations) are worse.

Don't get me started on Saudi Arabia...

 

[Zayd]

Well I used to not wear hijab and now I do, and I hardly ever get hassled on the streets, guys asking for my number etc anymore............so you people who think hijab does nothing are very wrong. Maybe some of you (if you're females obviously) should try wearing hijab for a day and experience the difference firsthand.

The following article should back your point sly fly.

THE SUNDAY TIMES
NEWS
How it feels to be an outsider
By LOUISE PEMBLE
13nov05
TO walk around Perth dressed as a Muslim is to be treated as an outsider in your own town. In a week of allegations that Muslims were plotting a terrorist attack in Australia, I donned full
Islamic garb and walked through the city to gauge public reaction.
Would people see me as a harmless shopper, or would they suspect I was
hiding a bomb under my clothes?
My mission was to test tolerance towards Muslims by dressing as one for the
day.
I had the full support of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, whose
president, Ameer Ali, viewed it as a chance to highlight some of the issues
faced by Australia's Muslims.
I visited shops and cafes in Forrest Chase, Northbridge and Hay St Mall,
before catching a bus and train.
I was surprised at how accepting younger people were, suggesting that
Perth may be able to shrug off racism.
But I wasn't prepared for the hostility from older Australians. The first cheap
shot came from an elderly woman walking through Forrest Chase. "Stupid
woman," she hissed at her mate as they passed me.
Later, as I was waiting at the crosswalk outside Perth railway station, a
woman in her 60s saw me standing beside her and said to her companion:
"Move away from the bomber."
With the help of Perth's Muslim community, I was fitted in black trousers, a
long black dress called an abya, a headscarf (hijab) and a facepiece (niqab).

Page 1 of 2 Sunday Times: How it feels to be an outsider [ 13nov05 ]
11/22/2005 http://sundaytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,17225286%5E948,00....

My eyes were the only visible part of my body.
I chose the facepiece because I wanted to test its impact on others, but my
Muslim adviser told me it was up to individuals to decide whether they wore
just a headscarf or covered their entire face.
My senses were on high alert the minute I stepped out of The Sunday Times
building.
Most people did a double take on seeing me and then either gave me a
hostile stare or – in the case of several young women – smiled
encouragingly.
It soon became obvious that many people thought I was dressed this way as
an act of defiance. In their view, I was snubbing my nose at the anti-Muslim
feeling said to be running high in the Australian community.
I had heard of Muslim women being spat at and abused. One woman even
had her headscarf torn from her head at Carousel Shopping Centre.
In the morning, I was accompanied by a Muslim woman wearing the
headscarf, but not the facepiece that I wore. In our two hours of walking
around the city we were twice subjected to vilification.
"Imagine how this must affect you if it happened every time you left your
house," she said.
It was then I realised how much we take for granted our right to feel safe in
our own community and how people take only seconds to decide if you are
friend or enemy.
But for every snide remark and hostile stare, I was surprised by the extra
respect I was shown by young men and women.
Every shopkeeper I approached was much more polite than I had
experienced when dressed in my usual clothes.
And on a train, where I feared I might be regarded as a suicide bomber, I
was twice offered a seat. It was a similar story on a bus, which was standingroom
only.
By this stage I had removed the niqab so that my face was showing – but
nothing else. This seemed to ease some of the tension I had sensed earlier
in the day.
Back at the office, workmates asked me how uncomfortable I had been
walking around Perth in my Muslim clothes.
The icy stares on the street had forced me for the first time in my life to be
wary of anyone who came near me.
Of all the garments I wore, the facepiece caused the most discomfort. With it
positioned just under my eyes, I found it difficult to look straight down.
It also made drinking a juice in a city cafe a challenge.
On the plus side, I found being hidden under all those garments surprisingly
liberating. For the first time I was able to walk down the street without the
usual scrutiny of my figure, face and hair.

Page 2 of 2 Sunday Times: How it feels to be an outsider [ 13nov05 ]
11/22/2005 http://sundaytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,17225286%5E948,00....

 

[Zayd]

If you were raped in a park and required four male Muslim witnesses to prove that you were raped (and if you didn't, you would be either stoned to death or lashed), would you report your rape case?

Regardless of how bad the US is, Pakistan (and many other "Islamic" nations) are worse.

Don't get me started on Saudi Arabia...

Again you got nothing (no stats) to prove your point.

now who's the one that sounds stupid and hypocrtical? lol

 

[tempco]

Again you got nothing (no stats) to prove your point.

now who's the one that sounds stupid and hypocrtical? lol

Oh my God. Unreported rape cases don't appear on official statistics (if these statistics even exist at all).

As I've said previously:

On top of that, the number of rapes in Pakistan aren't even documented (or released) by domestic groups. We have to rely on human rights organisations like Amnesty International, who have limited access to facts and figures.

Oh, and answer the question I've asked you.

 

[Zayd]

Oh my God. Unreported rape cases don't appear on official statistics (if these statistics even exist at all).

Then how did the US find out 69% of rapes in the country were not reported?
don't worry i'll explain..
31% of rape attacks were acutally held accountable by the rapists. Another 69% of rapes had taken place, but there were no rapists convicted of committing the act due to insuffiecient evidence or they simply got away with it (somehow).
And this all was announced by the US.

Simarlarly, as you say in relation to Pakistan, even though there may be a number of rapes not held on trial, you have no evidence to back that up. (when i say evidence i means an actual percentage or figure, such as the US has provided).
So when you say that there are more rapes in Pakistan (and other Islam nations) that are not on stats, than the number of rapes in the US that are not on stats........you have nothing to back that up, so therefore its just a random assumption you have made.