Israel and Palestine (2 Viewers)

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

$hiftyIceQueen, why do waste your time responding to these zionists who are so adamant on their pretences that they're not even willing to compromise?

I'll respond to a few of the thing which have been said here only out of habit, even though I've realised it's pointless. Unable to concede a point or understand the contradiction in their very posts, it's ridiculous. Who do they really think is fooled by their slandering and ad hominem? Always diverting attention from the point and bringing things in such as racism, yet being such hypocrites as to call us anti-semitic. Bringing things up like religion and islamophobic points from sources which are untrue, using Hadith as if it were religion (slandering us), yet not seeing the hypocrisy in calling Semites, Anti-Semites.


Untrue.

Regardless, another person could argue that under "X" culture, women are degraded and shamelessly act as whores or whatever else. It's a matter of perspective, and foreign countries or people are allowed to believe whatever they want. In Judaism, jews are gods chosen people and are allowed to kill, rob and enslave Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus and people from any other religion. Just because they don't have the numbers to do it, that doesn't mean they haven't exploited the U.S government to achieve a military arsenal for such conquests.


How about the article MaNieLa eloquently provided, where it has several reports of Israeli (Jewish) soldiers kidnapping and raping Palestinian children? Aren't they perverted?

How about the QLD man who microwaved his baby? Isn't he "evil"

How about the lady from the U.S who killed her children and stuffed them in suit cases? Isn't she "evil"?

Evil "people" exist throughout the world. Moreso in Israel and the United States. Making cases on the Palestinian people as a whole because minorities have resorted to things like terrorism is absurd. Who wouldn't resort to terrorism when opposing a terrorist state?

Back to the point. Why would you bring up the religion of Islam in a debate between Israel and Palestine? Are you trying to say the the Jews are more holy than the people of Islam? That's why they have a right to steal their country and kill them? Call their soldiers terrorists when they are the very definition of terrorism?

You say the Palestinians don't want to reach a solution? When MaNieLa, IceQueen and Myself are the only ones talking about a solution? The Palestinians have been trying to reach solutions since Arafat, but have had their solutions rejected.

They asked for a Human-Right. That Gaza, West Bank and The Israeli Arabs were connected by a strip of land so that they can have "Freedom of Movement" You can't seperate a people in between 3 countries, preventing their movement. That's just unfair, especially when you occupy the Majority of their land. How do you expect them to "make peace" on your terms? When you so blatantly deny theirs?

That is all I have to say.

"$hiftyIceQueen, why do waste your time responding to these zionists who are so adamant on their pretences that they're not even willing to compromise?"

It's interesting that you question why she argues...then you proceed to argue...

But since you label those who disagree with you as Zionists (giving it a negative connotation), then it seems fair to say you are an antisemite. I mean it in the context of you having something against Jews. And you know why you are an antisemite...?
Because you can't go a few posts without mentioning Jews.

(And don't come back saying you are more semitic than me...you very well may be, but you know exactly what I mean, if you want to play word games join an english literature forum!!!)

 

[BritneySpears]

Re: Israel & Palestine

These people want what is best in their after life. As children adults tell them to become suicide bombers which will help them in the afterlife, do you think they will disagree? When they see Jews killing family members/people they may know, do you really honestly think they will think its wrong to do anything to these people?

As for the whole talking to children who ended up speaking about wanting to kill Jews, please. Children say any and everything, they could change their minds depending on who says what and how they say it. Once again they are being brainwashed [as it says in the article you posted]

Are you serious? Is that islamic believes regarding suicide bombing, that they are doing it for their after life? purely for religious/spiritual reason? Your post alone discredit the whole Palestinian cause of fighting (they are doing it for after life! not for their independence according to you) If thats true then Islam is nothing more than a death cult which encourage suicide for afterlife!

http://www.submission.org/terrorism.html
http://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-11.htm

Read:http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0401-04.htm :about Israel/Palestine and terrorism
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/July06/Ash18.htm
http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq22.html

Ohhh found something else: http://www.davidduke.com/index.php?p=13 :to do with USA/Israel [other countires] + terrorism


THAT is what is a part of whats in ^^article.. and you people continue supporting Israel

Aryan- Women get half the amount men get because they will be married and the husband is meant to provide everything for them, whereas the mas has to provide for his children/wive. As for the bashing..read all the sites i posted, then come back and tell me more about how im dumb.

Read:
http://www.submission.org/women/beating.html


from http://www.submission.org/women/mis.html

Just read:
http://www.islamfortoday.com/ruqaiyyah09.htm
http://www.submission.org/women/mis.html
http://www.submission.org/women/equal.html
http://www.twf.org/Library/WomenICJ.html#intro


If you people want more i'll give you more! Stop this whole..'omg Palestinians are terrorists and Israelis are just trying to protect themselves' crap

I can answer exactly what you were asking for from your own source http://www.submission.org/women/beating.html

Unfortunately 4:34 is extremely abused by many of the so-called "Muslim" men in the world. While disregarding their own obligations and their own righteousness, these men only focus on the third step of handling this difficult condition as described in 4:34, skip the first two necessary steps and give themselves the excuse to beat their wives. They find support for their misguided and biased views, and for treating their spouses unjustly, in the fabrications of the so called Hadith and Sunna. They thus misrepresent the true Islam (Submission), and divert people from this perfect and just religion for all.

Truth has spoken. Even your own muslim women rights website said Hadith and Sunna are fabrications by men to oppress women. You said it has nothing to do with Islam but your own source clearly said Muslim men derived their rights to abuse women from Quran, as well as Hadith and Sunna (islam)

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Are you serious? Is that islamic believes regarding suicide bombing, that they are doing it for their after life? purely for religious/spiritual reason? Your post alone discredit the whole Palestinian cause of fighting (they are doing it for after life! not for their independence according to you) If thats true then Islam is nothing more than a death cult which encourage suicide for afterlife!

No if you read the article, the kids there want a good afterlife, like everyone who believes in religion does. Terrorism is forbidden in Islam, a fact which you keep ignoring. but they have been taught by older people that it is right. And since they have no other way of protecting themselves, why should they stop?

they attack to survive. In the article it mentions a few people who are fighting both to survive and for a better afterlife. The whole hing about the afterlife is what they may have wrong, since in Islam you are not allowed to kill an innocent.

I can answer exactly what you were asking for from your own source http://www.submission.org/women/beating.html

Unfortunately 4:34 is extremely abused by many of the so-called "Muslim" men in the world. While disregarding their own obligations and their own righteousness, these men only focus on the third step of handling this difficult condition as described in 4:34, skip the first two necessary steps and give themselves the excuse to beat their wives. They find support for their misguided and biased views, and for treating their spouses unjustly, in the fabrications of the so called Hadith and Sunna. They thus misrepresent the true Islam (Submission), and divert people from this perfect and just religion for all.

Truth has spoken. Even your own muslim women rights website said Hadith and Sunna are fabrications by men to oppress women. You said it has nothing to do with Islam but your own source clearly said Muslim men derived their rights to abuse women from Quran, as well as Hadith and Sunna (islam)

People misunderstand different texts, if you are so into Islam, why dont you come down to Lakember, and i'll get you some sheik who speaks english to tell you all about it, and you can ask him everything in person?

You say women in Islam are being abused, Mani and myself are here telling you we arent, so it isnt all women, there are women from different cultures, religions and race who are being abused, it has nothing to do with religion. Since both of us are telling you it isnt a part of Islam, and i know hundreds of people who will agree that they have never been abused, or that Islam has anything to do with abuse. Sam and any other Muslim will also agree. Yet you [a non-Muslim] think you know more about the religion than us, when you dont even understand what is going on.

Do you see me trying to understand Judaism? Do you see me making up stuff about the religion? Do i pretend to know what the religion is about, then get a whole bunch of sources saying 'this is what Jews believe, they are are idiots'?

This is like me saying since a priest raped little kids in QLD, then all christians do the same, or that it is a part of Christianity. Or that since the Israeli President Moshe Katsav was a rapist then all Israelis are rapists.

NONE of this has anythign to do with race or religion. Just a bunch of idiots you misuse power, or else misunderstand some religious texts.

"I recommend that you treat women with goodness. The best of you are those who treat their wives the best." Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him)

the Qur'an and Sunnah provide clear instructions on what procedures a husband must use in conflict situations where the husband is innocent and the wife is rebellious and at fault. The first step is a peaceful discussion between the two of them about the problem and solutions. This is intended to soften hearts and eliminate misunderstandings. If this doesn't work, the next step is for the husband to tell his wife his expectations in a firm, decisive manner. If the rebelliousness and disobedience continues, the husband is supposed to leave the bed, which is really a punishment for both of them for not being able to resolve their differences. If that fails to solve the problem, representatives of both sides meet to try and arbitrate. As a last resort, if he thinks it will prevent divorce by letting the wife know how serious he is, the husband can use a light slap on the hand or shoulder but not on any other part of the body, and it shouldn't leave a mark or scar. Anything beyond this is Islamically prohibited.

from http://www.jannah.org/sisters/wifeabuse.html

Is this what you're talking about?

Jay..you dont like that one...look at the rest! [sorry didnt realise the guy was an anit-jew..my bad]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_jihad.htm
http://www.al-islam.org/short/jihad/

$hiftyIceQueen, why do waste your time responding to these zionists who are so adamant on their pretences that they're not even willing to compromise?

Because i am bored! Why else?! And i finished all my chololate Need a distraction!!

Isnt there a thread about Islam? Aryan post whatever you want there, please

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

ice (sorry if you don't like it, but how do i address you? ) what am i looking for in the first link? i'm not seeing your point?

saying that other religions have verses that encourage intolerant behavious is one thing, but the only major religion in the world that acts on the pure belief that other religions deserve to be killed is islam at the moment.

i'm not saying every islamic person believes this. but there is an axiom that says "not that most mulsims are terrorists, but that most terrorists are muslim". my view is that there is a major problem in the global scheme in islam, that crazy people have the voice of your religion, and are perverting something that can be beautiful into something that is inhuman.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Just use my name:heba Ok

saying that other religions have verses that encourage intolerant behavious is one thing, but the only major religion in the world that acts on the pure belief that other religions deserve to be killed is islam at the moment.

Islam doesnt encourage people to kill others, because of their religion, which is what im saying, that all the Jews in this thread dont seem to understand!!! Do you understand what Jihad is? Check the sources, it has nothing to do with murdering people because of their religion.

What link are you talking about:S

Edit:

[Quran 6:151] "...... You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

[Quran17:33] "You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. ....."

[Quran 8:61]"If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient."

[Quran 4:90]"...... Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them."

The God of the Muslims is the same God of the Jews and the Christians and all the other religions. God does not permit one group the killing of innocent people of the other religions.

from: http://www.submission.org/terrorism.html

What im trying to say is that instead of blaming Islam for what these people 'do' why dont you read about the religion, then you will know where Islam stands [in the whole terrorist thing]

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

heba then

http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_jihad.htm, but either of them really.

i don't know enough about your religion to say what it does or it doesn't, the same way i protested to sam a while back that he knew nothing about mine. i don't know the text, and i don't really trust english translations of stuff.

but, whether islam encourages or not isn't the point. the point is that the leaders of islam encourage it. if you want proff i'll get you some speeches and remarks, but i think it's fairly common knowledge. that's my problem with islam in this day and age, not what the religion stands for, but what it's leaders profess and encourage.

i don't feel that there is strong enough resistance from within your religion trying to combat this baseless hatred, and one doesn't have to look any farther than australia to see how perverted some views are. and i am sure that if judaism ever spawned a terrorist fringe group bent on genocide, it would b universally denounced in both hebrew and arabic. so why doesn't islam?

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Because in some cases they feel they are fighting in the name of Jihad. Which means they are doing the right thing.

The way i see it is, if you kill soldiers/people who you are fighting or 'terrorists' then its normal, coz they are the enemy. Whereas when you kill children and innocents its totally wrong.

[half of this is for Aryan and his little side kick]

That the thing, when Israelis kill little children, women and the elderly it is terrorism. what other word is there?

Why is that when Arabs kill an Israeli child/woman/etc, its terrorism yet when Israelis do the exact same thing, its them protecting themselves? Care to explain this.

Leaders encourage it true, im not arguing..some are for the wrong causes, but some do have a point. To me i think if its in Palestine/Israel its normal, coz there is a war going on, they are fighting one another, the Israelis are killing the Palestinians, the Palestinians are protecting themselves by retaliating, which causes Israelis to protect themselves.

The way i see it, it's a never ending war.

Even though i dont agree with the whole killing ... the hatred is expected coz of the way the Palestinians have been treated.

 

[Atilla89]

Re: Israel & Palestine

The way i see it is, if you kill soldiers/people who you are fighting or 'terrorists' then its normal, coz they are the enemy. Whereas when you kill children and innocents its totally wrong.

Totally agree with that, that is why I view Hamas as a terrorist organisation not a government. They deliberatly target innocent people (blombing malls, shopping centres, etc) so according to your logic and mine groups like Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist groups.

That the thing, when Israelis kill little children, women and the elderly it is terrorism. what other word is there?

Why is that when Arabs kill an Israeli child/woman/etc, its terrorism yet when Israelis do the exact same thing, its them protecting themselves? Care to explain this.

Israel accidently kill children in the name of fighting terrorists who are encouraged to use innocents as human shields. That is the difference and that is why when Hamas or Hezbollah kill children or women it is terrorism, when Israel does this accidently it is a sad event, not cause for celebration - and an apology is issued to the families.

BTW, could people stop generalising about Jews, Muslims, etc. Not everyone here the same opinions (obviously) so lumping groups together just makes that person look like an idiot. This is to everyone, not just one particular person.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Totally agree with that, that is why I view Hamas as a terrorist organisation not a government. They deliberatly target innocent people (blombing malls, shopping centres, etc) so according to your logic and mine groups like Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist groups.

I dont think thats good, its wrong. but what about the Israelis? They killed two women coz they though a 'terrorist' was in a mosque. How is that normal? Maybe this 'terrorist' asked them to go out and distract the soldiers, but killing them is not the answer.

Also i showed you the article about the reporter shot in Israel, do you think thats normal? No matter who does this is still wrong.

Israel accidently kill children in the name of fighting terrorists who are encouraged to use innocents as human shields. That is the difference and that is why when Hamas or Hezbollah kill children or women it is terrorism, when Israel does this accidently it is a sad event, not cause for celebration - and an apology is issued to the families.

This is what i hate! They kill children then its all a mistake, do you think saying its a mistake is going to make everything ok?

If Hitler came out and said sorry i was aiming to kill only adults but the children were being used as human shields so sorry about it. Would that make it fine? No in the end they did kill the innocent people. You say its bad these chilren died, what about the children 'kidnapped' is it fine, coz they were 'terrorists'?

I dont think its good when any innocent human being dies.

BTW, could people stop generalising about Jews, Muslims, etc. Not everyone here the same opinions (obviously) so lumping groups together just makes that person look like an idiot. This is to everyone, not just one particular person.

It was me, wasnt it :S Didnt mean to, just most of the people here think the same way ... :S

http://www.metafilter.com/36327/Killing-Palestinian-children-is-no-longer-a-big-deal : check the article, you gots to click the first thingy
http://santacruz.indymedia.org/newswire/display/8298/index.php

http://www.jerusalemites.org/kids/4.htm : the childrens POV
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3499.htm


I doubt Israel cares about the welfare of you Palestinians...i take that back, its all Arabs in general. this is the majority or them, since the soldiers have np with killing children, some of who may have children, which makes it even worse.

There are widespread reports of physical beatings, Abuqtaish says, “but currently, they concentrate mainly on psychological torture like sleep deprivation, or depriving him of food or water, or putting him in solitary confinement, or threatening him with the demolition of his home or the arrest of other family members. Children have also reported that the Israeli interrogators have threatened to sexually abuse them.”

from: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/10/435/ : shows how much Israelis regret hurting children The way they behave is disgusting! Right this is the great Israel, which helps Palestinians, everything is coz of Hamas and Hezballah right?

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

If Hitler came out and said sorry i was aiming to kill only adults but the children were being used as human shields so sorry about it. Would that make it fine? No in the end they did kill the innocent people. You say its bad these chilren died, what about the children 'kidnapped' is it fine, coz they were 'terrorists'?

there is a socio-political law called godwin's law, that when you don't have an argument, people use the holocaust. i think this is an example of that. hitler committing genocide has no bearing on this discussion, and its kinda insulting to the memory, not just of the 6 million jews, but of all the millions of people who he massacred that you're using it here. hitler aimed to kill innocents, israel doesn't, and i find it really insulting you would draw a parallel there.

which children are kidnapped because they are "terrorists"? what are you refering to here?

http://www.metafilter.com/36327/Kill...ger-a-big-deal : check the article, you gots to click the first thingy
http://santacruz.indymedia.org/newsw...8298/index.php

is there anything to suggest that all of the children who are dead are idf casulties? i ask this because while it is attributed indirectly in the article, it isn't blatantly said.

and whilst i have no doubt that they are all victims of the conflict, hamas and fatah are warring, and both bodies are inhumane to their own people.

i ask this, because of thigns like this happeneing...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20070506-0429-palestinians-shooting.html

or this, which was attributed by the palestinians to a HAMAS faction.

Officials say gunmen Monday fired into a car carrying the children of a senior intelligence officer loyal to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. Three boys aged six to 10 were killed, and another two children were injured when seventy bullets were fired into the car. The driver was also killed in the attack.

and seeing this, why haven't you condemned hamas or fatah as well? somehting i never understand. is it ok for them? and if you feel that israel has done something wrong, and are willing to condemn them for it, why not these people as well?

 

[MaNiElla]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Yes I blamed their religion thats where they got their laws from, thats where they interpreted their paedophiliac role model. Yes those people are idiot so is their role model who married a 6 yrs old girl Muhammad.



Yes it is part of Islam, they get married under Islamic Law. I have a problem with you not knowing your religion because you are a retard who tried to speak on behalf of millions of women oppressed by Islamic Law, supporting those who oppress them and denying them their freedom.



because under Islamic culture women have no freedom, you only have freedom here in australia because you do not have sharia law, even so many australian women are still forced against their will. it has everything to do with Islam, they are muslim and their fathers are doing it because they read it in Quran that their prophet married a 6 yrs old girl therefore it is ok to married off their young girls to someone else.
She had her genital mutilated by some old muslim pervert. That is abuse of girls under Islamic Culture. It has everything to do with your religion which allows girls to be treated like that


Allah says in the Koran that Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be superior to women. If men suspect rebellion from their wives, they should admonish them, refuse sex, and finally beat them to discipline them [Quran 4:34]. Men have the higher rights than women [Quran 2:228], women are worth only half of men [Quran 2:282] and they will inherit only half of that of men (brother, husband) [Quran 4:11; 4:176].

That is from the Quran which tells men to beat their wives for suspicion (any reason in practice). That is probably where muslims derived their rights of abuse of women and the whole Sharia Law prejudices against women begun. Now , you probably gonna blame the men. But those men are doing what they are allowed to do under Islam (Quran and Sharia Law). The irony is you (a muslim) know nothing of those verses, otherwise you would not have asked source, please, source please, source please LOL

So, thats what your school back home in israel has been teaching you?? TO swear at the prophet and at islam.

Im not going to waste my time and discuss with you why women are NOT opressed in islam because they are not, and im not going to help you to divert the attention from palestine and israel to islam, which is what you are trying to do.

2ndly, you should stop dealing with these big things, which you obviously know nothing about.
Is that what your religion and school taught you?
Have you ever heard us swear at a rabbi?
Have you ever heard us swear at your prophets?
Have you ever heard us talking about the torah in a bad way?

The answer is obviously no!!

Islam and muslim parents obviously taught all their muslim kids to respect rabbis's, to respect and love all prophets and to respect the torah, bible, and quran.

Heba, and sam demonstrated this fact, because not once did they reply to you and talk about your rabbis, in the way you talk about hilaly.
Not once, did they talk about judaisim in a bad inapropriate way, although they could easily dig up a articel off the internet and say, here you go a jewish guy slapped his wife, therefore the torah allows jews to slap thier wife.
Not once did they mention mosses and the other prophets you believe in, and make up stories about them, which what you've been doing to the Prophet Muhamad(PBUH)

We never said any of that, we actually took the time to research and to explain to you all the bad and huge accusations that you've been accusing Islam and the Prophet, heba, even offered to take you to a shiek so you can ask him whatever you want. None of us used your low, corrupted and crooked way in debatting.

Your just a sick and twisted person, and your just a freaking liar, who no one is willing to take seriously and no one will ever believe you. You are seriously a disgrace to the jewish community

 

[MaNiElla]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Back to Israel and Palestine:

Here is some more evidece of why the Palestinian society is so 'great' and always in the right and never advocates terrorism or matrydom.

Read the whole thing (there are 2 pages after the first), it is very enlightening when we have users like Maniella and Sam trying to defend these people and their actions, lol.

http://www.nysun.com/article/55653?page_no=1

Stop bullshitting, k?

when did i ever mention that i support hamas? I never even mentioned them ever in any of my posts, LOOL. So stop making stuff up or you would look like a dumbass, just how you are looking now

As for your "evidence", as heba said, what do you expect small kids to say? they are little infants who can change their minds anytime when they grow up, for cryig out loud. I wanted to be a artist when i was a little girl, 3 years later i wanted to become a author, a year later i wanted to be a dentist. Kids change their minds every single day, so they wont neccesarily become bombers or anything, that assumption is just rubbish.

But, you also have to bear in mind that these little children see members of their family being killed every single day, every day, soldiers imprison their dad, or brother, or random members of their family. maybe thier homes "accidently" got hit by a israeli missile, while they are looking for terrorists. little innocent palestinian children are exposed to horrific , horrendous situations every single day of their lives.

 

[MaNiElla]

Re: Israel & Palestine

david duke is an internationall recognized rascist, anti-jew, holocaust denier and and former Grand Wizard of the Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. impartial, no?

Duke pled guilty to a six-year scheme to dupe thousands of his followers by asking for donations.

a few quotes by the wizard himself

a polite way of saying white supremacists and neo nazis.

speaks for itself.

doesn't his rhetoric just scream beer hall putsch and 1933 in germany.

godwin's law at work. when people who hate jews and hate israelis haven't got an argument, they always liken israel to nazi germany.



this is the guy you want to quote? david duke? why not david irving? or Ernst Zündel? Gazi Hussein, Dr Rahmandost, Jan Bernhoff or Fredrick Töben? those last group, all attended Mahmoud Ahmadenijad's holocaust denial session in tehran. these are your sources.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ca/Conference_day_1.JPG

quoting from your articles



notice how the site ignores the fact that the terrorism that was occuring was being ordered by arafat, and he was the leader of the palestinian people. truly open minded people would recognise that he should have been up infron of the hague, not running a people.



in response to this quote, i give you exerpts from arafat's speech in jo'burg that addressed the ceasefire aggreement he brokered.



this is the man who didn't want terrorism?!?! the hell does a person who wants terrorism sound like?

my main point with this article is where it is published, and by whom.



name me one other country in the middle east where a human being can criticise the government and call them terrorists and condemn them to destruction, and be a professor at a state university? let alone not be imprisoned, or summarily executed in the middle of the night. not a single arabic islamic country in the world allows that freedom, and you want to call it state terrorism?!?!

and god sam, could you have more tunnel vision if you tried? see above a few for arafat's views on the peace process. i'll take this time to remind you that those views were stated in english, so you can't claim that i've taken them out of context, or misunderstood the translation.



no, i'm pretty sure that everyone is talking about a solution, you just don't like them because they don't conform to your mind view, and anything that doesn't behave how you want it to behave is inherently wrong or evil. ignore the facts much?

arafat refused 91% of the territories and eastern jerusalem as the capital of the new palestinian state. refused, flat out. also refused to dismantle the terrorist orginisations that he had either created or endorsed. peace under arafat, just like peace under HAMAS, is a joke, and an impossiblity while jews live and breath in israel. they have demonstrated time and time again, that if you give them land, they just take more and more. how about some willingness on the part of the palestinians to disarm their terrorist factions? to stop the violence? or geez, i mean, to even adhere to the freaking ceasefire aggreement would kill you?



they haven't demonstrated anything to suggest that giving them what they want will result in peace, and its been 60 years. by now, the carrot approach hasn't worked, i think it's time for the stick. its not their land, its israel. accept that and move on. how do you expect israel to grant terrorists their demands when they so blatantly deny your right to exist? they and you don't want peace with an israeli state, just no israeli state at all.

If you want to quote off people you should provide the sources from where you got them from. Just a little peice of advise for you to use next time

It's interesting that you question why she argues...then you proceed to argue...

But since you label those who disagree with you as Zionists (giving it a negative connotation), then it seems fair to say you are an antisemite. I mean it in the context of you having something against Jews. And you know why you are an antisemite...?
Because you can't go a few posts without mentioning Jews.

(And don't come back saying you are more semitic than me...you very well may be, but you know exactly what I mean, if you want to play word games join an english literature forum!!!)

Sorry to tell you this mate, but the only thing you say in this thread are:"you are an antisemite", who are you kidding? you dont have the right to label anyone here. So please try to come up with something new because your accusations are getting so ever so boring. I read the same sentence in every thread of yours everytime, lol.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Sorry to tell you this mate, but the only thing you say in this thread are:"you are an antisemite", who are you kidding? you dont have the right to label anyone here. So please try to come up with something new because your accusations are getting so ever so boring. I read the same sentence in every thread of yours everytime, lol.

I'll explain my post. You are an antisemite. I keep repeating it because people won't accept it. I have explained why people are antisemites in the previous post.

Number 2 - As I quoted when I posted before, people who support Israel keep getting labelled as a Zionist implying a negative connotation so it's only fair to label those labellers...

Lastly, what else do you wish me to say. There are facts that support Palestine and facts that support Israel. Obviously I will not use facts that support Palestine to support Israel and if I use anything else you will tell me it's a lie, a fabrication (obviously because it doesn't support your position...and yes, Zionists control all aspects of the modern world, the education system, water supply, space exploration projects, the fashion world and the media). You don't wish for negotiation, you want Israel to hand it all over to the Palestinians. For whatever reasons you have that is your position. You are not here to debate or discuss, you are here to tell. I therefore have nothing more to tell you but what I have said.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

there is a socio-political law called godwin's law, that when you don't have an argument, people use the holocaust. i think this is an example of that. hitler committing genocide has no bearing on this discussion, and its kinda insulting to the memory, not just of the 6 million jews, but of all the millions of people who he massacred that you're using it here. hitler aimed to kill innocents, israel doesn't, and i find it really insulting you would draw a parallel there.

which children are kidnapped because they are "terrorists"? what are you refering to here?


is there anything to suggest that all of the children who are dead are idf casulties? i ask this because while it is attributed indirectly in the article, it isn't blatantly said.

and whilst i have no doubt that they are all victims of the conflict, hamas and fatah are warring, and both bodies are inhumane to their own people.

i ask this, because of thigns like this happeneing...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20070506-0429-palestinians-shooting.html

or this, which was attributed by the palestinians to a HAMAS faction.

and seeing this, why haven't you condemned hamas or fatah as well? somehting i never understand. is it ok for them? and if you feel that israel has done something wrong, and are willing to condemn them for it, why not these people as well?

I didnt mean it to be offensive, sorry. But its simple, if someone came upto you shot your children, and a whole bunch of other kids, then said sorry i was aiming at someone else, would you think its ok? Wouldnt you be angry at them? Wouldnt you want revenge?

No i dont agree with all these people who kill innocent people, i already said that ...

Did you even read this [ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=489479 ]???


What about this one http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/10/435/ which clearly states the way the Israelis have treated them?! Why are you just ignoring half of this?

“Yes, we knew there were children, but we had to kill the terrorists.”
Like other Israeli officials and spokespersons, Dotan believe that these actions were justified so as to protect Israeli lives.
“If we hadn’t killed those Palestinian children, then the terrorist would have killed three or four times as many Israelis.”

from :http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/child_41304.html

You know what pisses me off, is that they think that an Israelis life is worth more than a Palestinians. How werethey certain these people were going to kill 3 or 4 times as many Israelis? They werent they just wanted to protect their citizens at the expense of others.

Wow another 'big mistake' http://www.counterpunch.org/sunil1.html

How many mistakes can these Israelis make? All which are the cause of dead innocent people. Right a mistake.

Damn, look at this: http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp Turns out Israelis use Palestinians as human shields as well

http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2005/02/2156.shtml

Nathan, a negotiation could work, if both sides change their way of live:
-stop killing one another
-stop sending under 18s to gaol, then abusing them even though there is no evidence which could be used to identify the as terrorists
-they both come to an agreement, which means Israel give Palestinians the land they want, Palestinians stop killing.
etc etc ..Not all of it, just some, which will make both sides happy, if they dnt give some well..we aint going nowhere:|

So much stuff!!!

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

I didnt mean it to be offensive, sorry. But its simple, if someone came upto you shot your children, and a whole bunch of other kids, then said sorry i was aiming at someone else, would you think its ok? Wouldnt you be angry at them? Wouldnt you want revenge?

No i dont agree with all these people who kill innocent people, i already said that ...

Did you even read this [ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=489479 ]???


What about this one http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/10/435/ which clearly states the way the Israelis have treated them?! Why are you just ignoring half of this?


from :http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/child_41304.html

You know what pisses me off, is that they think that an Israelis life is worth more than a Palestinians. How werethey certain these people were going to kill 3 or 4 times as many Israelis? They werent they just wanted to protect their citizens at the expense of others.

Wow another 'big mistake' http://www.counterpunch.org/sunil1.html

How many mistakes can these Israelis make? All which are the cause of dead innocent people. Right a mistake.

Damn, look at this: http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp Turns out Israelis use Palestinians as human shields as well

http://beirut.indymedia.org/ar/2005/02/2156.shtml

Nathan, a negotiation could work, if both sides change their way of live:
-stop killing one another
-stop sending under 18s to gaol, then abusing them even though there is no evidence which could be used to identify the as terrorists
-they both come to an agreement, which means Israel give Palestinians the land they want, Palestinians stop killing.
etc etc ..Not all of it, just some, which will make both sides happy, if they dnt give some well..we aint going nowhere:|

So much stuff!!!

"Nathan, a negotiation could work, if both sides change their way of live:
-stop killing one another
-stop sending under 18s to gaol, then abusing them even though there is no evidence which could be used to identify the as terrorists
-they both come to an agreement, which means Israel give Palestinians the land they want, Palestinians stop killing.
etc etc ..Not all of it, just some, which will make both sides happy, if they dnt give some well..we aint going nowhere:|"

Once again I do agree with you but what I am trying to emphasise is that Israel did recently give land: the Gush Katif disengagement. Considering Israel gave up land which the Palestinians asked for, what did the Palestinians do in return?

 

[HotShot]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Once again I do agree with you but what I am trying to emphasise is that Israel did recently give land: the Gush Katif disengagement. Considering Israel gave up land which the Palestinians asked for, what did the Palestinians do in return?

I am sorry did the Palestinians ask FOR That land? .. or did they want more.....You are giving something to Palestinians that already belonged to them.

 

[$hiftyIceQueen]

Re: Israel & Palestine

In this i 100% agree with HotShot.

the land was theirs before the Israelis came along in the first place, which is what this all comes down to.

 

[physician]

Re: Israel & Palestine

In one of the above posts, some Quranic verses were not quoted in full. Not to diverge the topic or anything, but since the above incomplete verses remain present on the forums, the full translations of the verses should also appear (obtained from the website they were intially quoted from after comparison with other english translations):

[Quran 4:34]. If men suspect rebellion from their wives, they should admonish them, refuse sex, and finally beat them to discipline them.

[Quran 4:34] Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

A question for u regarding this verse: Did the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) every hit/abuse any of his wives? provide example with evidence please.

when u say beat them to discipline them, clearly state what u mean by beat.

[Quran 2:228]Men have the higher rights than women

[Quran 2:228] Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

women are worth only half of men [Quran 2:282]

[Quran 2:282] O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you (in terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one erreth (though forgetfulness) the other will remember. And the witnesses must not refuse when they are summoned. Be no averse to writing down (the contract) whether it be small or great, with (record of) the term thereof. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah and more sure for testimony, and the best way of avoiding doubt between you; save only in the case when it is actual merchandise which ye transfer among yourselves from hand to hand. In that case it is no sin for you if ye write it not. And have witnesses when ye sell to one another, and let no harm be done to scribe or witness. If ye do (harm to them) lo! it is a sin in you. Observe your duty to Allah. Allah is teaching you. And Allah is knower of all things.

and they will inherit only half of that of men (brother, husband) [Quran 4:11; 4:176].

[Quran 4:11] Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.


[Quran 4:176] They ask thee for a pronouncement. Say: Allah hath pronounced for you concerning distant kindred. If a man die childless and he have a sister, hers is half the heritage, and he would have inherited from her had she died childless. And if there be two sisters, then theirs are two-thirds of the heritage, and if they be brethren, men and women, unto the male is the equivalent of the share of two females. Allah expoundeth unto you, so that ye err not. Allah is Knower of all things.

Why will they inherit only half of that of men in some cases? where does is it specifically mention that woman are worth half of men? do u measure the worth of a human being based on how much they inherit? maybe these inheritence laws are based on family/Islamic obligations?

That is from the Quran which tells men to beat their wives for suspicion (any reason in practice). That is probably where muslims derived their rights of abuse of women and the whole Sharia Law prejudices against women begun

Its all good to try and derive conclusions from the above verses which u tried quoting, but please remember, your commenting on alot of the issues you addressed by quoting the incomplete verses, is like an Arts student majoring in psychology performing open heart surgery on a patient.

This 'Shariah law' that u mention, takes years of study to pursue and truly master. We have university degrees split into Bachelors, Phd, masters etc. much like the Law degrees available at any university except specific to Islam.

There also exists degrees specific to 'Inheritence laws'... literally, students major in Inheritence law.

My aim is not to translate or justify the verses you chose to quote above, my aim is simply to highlight the fact that you should devote some time to try and understand such verses. Majoring in Psychology for ex. doesnt give you the qualification to perform open heart surgery on a patient. There's a separate path to pursue if thats what u want to do, there are books to read, courses to take, degrees to complete, experience to gain etc.

As can be seen, out of these very long and extensive verses you only chose to include a re-written overly summarised portion of each.

 

[JayB]

Re: Israel & Palestine

yeah i read the articles, but it doesn't mean i believe them flat out. i've heard stories of kids trying to get arrested because life at home was so shit, that the prisons where they are "forced" to go to schoool 5 days a week, and get 3 meals a day is better. who do you blame, the parents who turn their kids into monsters, or the society tyring to protect themselves from other peoples hatred?

and in the end, this is what its always going to come down to heba.

you belive israel shouldn't exist or isn't legitimate, i/we don't. and neither of us are going to change that belief are we?