logical programming (2 Viewers)

[mattyb]

-X- .... ten to one... no... 500 to one that that stupid vacuum cleaner doesnt use fuzzy logic. it uses a fricken hardware chip and a bullshit database. i'll write you an algorithm in psuedocode now

BEGIN MAINPROGRAM VACUUMCLEANER
if dust > 10 then power = power - 1
roomlist(dust) = power
blah blah blah

its on a chip, which makes it use von neumann architecture (imperative). if it was to use a logic language it'd need all sorts of extrateraneous shit.

btw i dont care what kinda stupid shit is in japan. if their whole computing world runs on logic systems, good for them. they can teach that in their schools.
to US - and the rest of the world - lets leave it in "emerging technology".

(btw you *think* u read it somewhere? you *believe* its on the palmtop? thats *some* evidence. looks like this logic paradigm is about as hard to find as the sasquatch - so much for a useful language)

 

[saves.the.day]

Originally posted by mattyb
HOW do you know these people don't use logic paradigms? Obviously if it exists it has been used at some point. Your assumptions are simply based on what you think and not whats true.
- ehh, wrong again. I am a programmer, ie i PROGRAM. I program for enjoyment, for school, for money. In my experience (i do have a little), i have not seen implementations of logic solutions taken as serious software approaches. do a web search for "prolog", see how many development suites u find... see how many serious applications were built in it... none.

Hi mattyb, yeh I'll have to completley agree with you on all your posts in this topic so far. I also have been programming for several years now.. and no not in html or vb but in more challenging languages like PHP (favourite ^^), MySQL (yeh i know its not relly language), CGI, ASP yeh theres a correlation I know lol

Well when you said "and i'm forced to digest a heap of bullshit about logic languages" I totally agreed. Not only that but we are forced to down alot of bullsh*t in general for sdd. . I mean I see no use for learning meta languages etc unless any of us actually plan on creating their own 4gl or something.

Originally posted by -X- ..
It's like physics teaching crap about what plank did and why wats his name failed, but we still have to know it

Dude, its so not the same. Max plank did research on black body radiation and the quantam theory and theorised that light occured in photons. He was correct, and what we learn about him is valid information.

 

[mattyb]

holy shit!
someone who actually knows something about software!

thank christ.

 

[-X-]

So now your saying you know more than the people who made the vacuum?

Heres a washing machine that uses it:
http://www.dmartstores.com/noname46.htm

btw i dont care what kinda stupid shit is in japan. if their whole computing world runs on logic systems, good for them. they can teach that in their schools.

Idiot.

 

[-X-]

Originally posted by saves.the.day
I mean I see no use for learning meta languages etc unless any of us actually plan on creating their own 4gl or something.

What if some does want to creat their own 4gl? Similar to physics, i probably find some topics useless (astrophysics!) but what if there are some who want to be astrophycist? About Plank, i admit it, it's a bad example. I was just trying to use it as an example since todays physics is Full of crap (too much society and history based).

 

[hurrotisrobbo]

I agree with mattyb for the most part. Except for that last quote that -X- mentioned.

I think it has some good theoretical uses, but the actual stuff doesn't seem to exist yet, or if it does it isn't mainstream.

Sorry, -X-, but an advertisement for a 'fuzzy logic' washing machine does not a logic-paradigm-based device make.

Heck, as stated above, most game 'fuzzy logic' consists of a few variables and a Case statement or three.


Sidenote: I don't consider myself 'superior' to any theorists. I'm just curious to see whether there are any non-theory applications for logic-paradigm-based tools, and if so, whether they exist.

 

[-X-]

Originally posted by hurrotisrobbo


Sorry, -X-, but an advertisement for a 'fuzzy logic' washing machine does not a logic-paradigm-based device make.

I know what you mean but i was just trying to show that there are HEAPS of things that use fuzzy logic. So did a quick search for an example. But you'll find better examples. Im of to bed now.

 

[mattyb]

-X-... you're out of your league.

So now your saying you know more than the people who made the vacuum?

i dont remember saying that. i do remember saying that youre wrong.

And yes, if japan has a radically different way of coding and we dont, why would we learn it? we arent in japan. that comment has more truth than any of yours (fuzzy logic washing machine? yeah i bet it runs XP with microsoft office too)

I like your idiot conclusion too based on... something.
maybe i can call you an ignorant dumbshit fag from the incorrect, irelevent shit u spout to justify urself... but then i'd be lowered to your level.

Heck, as stated above, most game 'fuzzy logic' consists of a few variables and a Case statement or three.
thanks hurrotisrobbo, its good to see that some people understand what goes on in the real world.

 

[-X-]

Originally posted by mattyb
-X- .... ten to one... no... 500 to one that that stupid vacuum cleaner doesnt use fuzzy logic.

They actually said they used fuzzy logic in the vaccuum and had a long explanation on how it worked. Now i dont have any links to it so u may not believe me. But....

Sony uses fuzzy logic to recognize Kanji characters in the Palm Top program. In October of 1993 at the Tokyo Motor show, Mitsubishi had a computer in an WSR-IV prototype that used fuzzy logic to imitate the information processing in a driver's brain. The computer studies the driver's normal driving habits and selects a response from different situations that could happen. If a built in radar system detects an object in the road, then the fuzzy logic system would decide whether or not the driver was aware of the obstacle based on previous driving patterns. If the driver does not respond as the computer predicted, then the computer can automatically take control of the brakes to avoid a collision.

from: http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/math/biograph/topfuzz.htm

Thats one use. Now your gonna tell me the Palm Top or mitsubishi doesnt use fuzzy logic?

And yes, if japan has a radically different way of coding and we dont, why would we learn it? we arent in japan.

Thats just stupid. Why learn it? You might one day be working in japan. You might be working for an applience or electronics company. And its always good to have a general knowledge in other more different things.

Heck, as stated above, most game 'fuzzy logic' consists of a few variables and a Case statement or three.

I never said games use fuzzy logic and i have no idea how games implement AI.

 

[SamD]

I've just skimmed over this thread and here's my waffle...

1. It is true that virtually all computers, and hence virtually all software, is ultimately based on the von Neumann architecture. I've never seen a computer that uses a different architecture.

2. This means that regardless of the paradigm a programming language uses, once it is compiled it must run on a von Neumann type computer. Until someone comes up with a new hardware architecture this will remain the case.

3. The whole point of different paradigms is to make the programming process easier. Some paradigms defintely suit particular types of problems, this is the main point of this option, to consider different ways of solving problems.

4. Yes, the functional and logical paradigms are not often used for large commercial applications. However, it has only been the last few years that OO languages have been around. Now everyone uses them, even mattyB it seems!

5. Perhaps if mattyB had started programming 20 years ago, like me, then he'd still be using punch cards or writing in Fortran.

6. Functional and logic languages are, on the whole, in a process of evolution. This is occuring primarily within universities, however commercial programmers are starting to take notice. For example, I personally see a huge future for Haskell, I have a Maths degree, so Haskell makes a heap of sense to me.

7. Remember computers haven't been around very long and they're evolving at an ever increasing rate. Don't dismiss new ideas as not commercially viable, you're sure to be proved wrong. And in the case of computers this is likely to happen sooner rather than later!

Best wishes for the exam tomorrow!

Sam

 

[mattyb]

SamD

if OO languages have been around only a few years, and every body uses them... and logic languages have been around for thirty, and nobody uses them... doesnt that just further my point?

And i'm not saying logic languages won't be useful in a few years. They may be useful tomorrow. I actually LIKE the idea of logic languages, they seem like a nice pipe dream. But i'm talking about the way the textbook talks about the logic languages... as if they are a prevelent and useful programming RIGHT NOW. if they were under "emerging technologies", then fair enough... but they aren't. They mayaswell have a chapter on quantum computing, and we'll spit out a bunch of graduates with stars in their eyes and no money in their pockets.

-X-.. i'm SURE that each of those appliances has an imperative, and their so called "fuzzy logic" once again consists of a few casewhere statements and variables. it is unfeasible to implement a logic system in hardware like that (yes, for the moment anyway), so they just put in a little chip and say "hey, this crazy thing is thinking!!!".

And as for recognising Kanji characters (um OCR anyone?), they say thats also fuzzy logic? maybe, but i bet its not written in prolog.

 

[saves.the.day]

Originally posted by -X-
What if some does want to creat their own 4gl? Similar to physics, i probably find some topics useless (astrophysics!) but what if there are some who want to be astrophycist? About Plank, i admit it, it's a bad example. I was just trying to use it as an example since todays physics is Full of crap (too much society and history based).

I see your point. I stand corrected. But yeh what ever happened to our physics course? It's not physics anymore.. they took out all the math and now its just a history course. Hehe, but I guess this is getting off topic.

 

[simmmo]

like SamD says, they're not really going to have logic languages as a true paradigm until comps r no longer based on von Neumann, like quantum computers. Still, we should know what they're on about. And since it'll give us extra marks in the HSC, why not learn? Only another bit of study. But yeah i agree with you mattyb, its not a real paradigm yet. Ultimatley, its still imperative

 

[mattyb]

of course we should study them. it just bugs me that they are saying that "logical languages are very useful in creating expert systems that are used in blah blah blah" and treating them like its one of the most relevent paradigms around, and is used in all kinds of ways. it isnt. Its a pipedream... A real possibility, but not backed up in the real world. the texts are essentially lying.