maths in the finance major at UNSW (2 Viewers)

[Trebla]

what on earth are you talking about trebla?

when did you even study finance? I'm studying it right now in 3rd year (and have 1 more elective to complete my major), I completed all the quantitative ones and its nothing like you are saying.. apparently the hardest subject is fins2624 and its extremely basic stats and plugging in, theres been a tonne of course changes since 2007-2009

also nerdasdasd is from uts and their course is actually different (and harder, surprisingly) to unsw's

in short: it is as easy as shadowdude says, not sure exactly what trebla is raving on about, and nerdasdasd info is for uts (so not sure wth he is on about as well)

In portfolio theory I had to do things like find first and second derivatives of utility functions to determine risk aversion of an investor and use matrix operations to compute alternative models to CAPM. Not to mention all the statistics and probability stuff that came with it as well.

In the risk management course, I dealt a lot with computing probabilities of defaults and some heavy statistical machinery.

In the derivatives course I had to price options using expectations of continuous random variables, which was where integration came in. Here is a sample of the solutions to an assignment we had to do:

Looks like the quantitative courses at UTS and USyd are more rigorous in their approach than UNSW lel

 

[nerdasdasd]

My assessment

This was incredibly difficult for me to figure out

 

[nerdasdasd]

Coming from 2U, it was an incredible step up, as we never had to do anything that rigorous before ...... (Unless you did 3 or 4u)

 

[VBN2470]

In portfolio theory I had to do things like find first and second derivatives of utility functions to determine risk aversion of an investor and use matrix operations to compute alternative models to CAPM. Not to mention all the statistics and probability stuff that came with it as well.

In the risk management course, I dealt a lot with computing probabilities of defaults and some heavy statistical machinery.

In the derivatives course I had to price options using expectations of continuous random variables, which was where integration came in. Here is a sample of the solutions to an assignment we had to do:

Looks like the quantitative courses at UTS and USyd are more rigorous in their approach than UNSW lel

Is that part of the Finance major under Commerce, or the Financial Mathematics major under Advanced Maths?

 

[brent012]

They just chuck it in, sink or swim.

That's not entirely true, I think the course description for the subject you are talking about describes it well:

This subject provides students with skills essential for studying finance subjects offered by the School of Finance and Economics. Students learn basic mathematics and statistics, and consolidate their knowledge and skills in the context of real world finance problems. The focus of the subject is on the development of practical modelling skills.

As you can see it IS a maths subject and it's supposed to teach you this stuff. It did cover a fair bit of stuff, but they always started from the basics. I could understand people being frustrated if you signed up for a subject with no prereqs where they assumed you already knew all of this stuff, but that was not the case here.

 

[Trebla]

Is that part of the Finance major under Commerce, or the Financial Mathematics major under Advanced Maths?

This was within the Finance major under Commerce.

Financial Mathematics under Advanced Maths is far more sophisticated than this.

 

[VBN2470]

This was within the Finance major under Commerce

Then I can say it is definitely a LOT more Maths rigorous than any of the compulsory cores offered at UNSW (FINS2624 (Portfolio Management) having the highest level of maths, covering only basic algebraic manipulation and random statistics here and there). Not sure about the electives though, I think it tends gets more Maths rigorous with further 3rd year electives, but those are only electives meaning people don't have to do the Maths related Finance subjects if they don't want to. Even though I've never done FINS2624 (I'm only speaking from feedback I've gathered from mates), it does seem pretty 'dumbed down', they don't seem to go through any mathematical rigour that would be needed to understand how or why financial instruments are modelled/priced/valued etc. so it only makes it less interesting to learn (although the less mathematically inclined people would prefer less maths). Only courses that seem to cover this level would be the actuarial subjects (namely ACTL2111 Financial Mathematics) which is pretty mathematically intense since it involves heavy use of Calculus and Probability/Statistics but still not at the level at which USyd seems to go through haha.

 

[RenegadeMx]

My assessment

This was incredibly difficult for me to figure out

if theres one thing i hate in maths, it is writing out the summation notation 1000000000 times

 

[Trebla]

Then I can say it is definitely a LOT more Maths rigorous than any of the compulsory cores offered at UNSW (FINS2624 (Portfolio Management) having the highest level of maths, covering only basic algebraic manipulation and random statistics here and there). Not sure about the electives though, I think it tends gets more Maths rigorous with further 3rd year electives, but those are only electives meaning people don't have to do the Maths related Finance subjects if they don't want to. Even though I've never done FINS2624 (I'm only speaking from feedback I've gathered from mates), it does seem pretty 'dumbed down', they don't seem to go through any mathematical rigour that would be needed to understand how or why financial instruments are modelled/priced/valued etc. so it only makes it less interesting to learn (although the less mathematically inclined people would prefer less maths). Only courses that seem to cover this level would be the actuarial subjects (namely ACTL2111 Financial Mathematics) which is pretty mathematically intense since it involves heavy use of Calculus and Probability/Statistics but still not at the level at which USyd seems to go through haha.

Keep in mind that the courses I mentioned are 3rd year electives (except for Portfolio management) so students don't have to venture down that route if they don't have an interest in those areas. However, if you do have an interest in portfolio management or derivatives trading, be prepared to deal with a great deal of maths.

If we're only talking about compulsory units, then the maths only gets as far as basic differentiation (e.g. for risk aversion measures in utility functions), a bit of series (e.g. for computing value of annuities) and basic statistics (in general).

 

[mreditor16]

BUMP! Some interesting insights!

 

[RishBonjour99]

can you plug numbers into equations

can you re-arrange equations to solve for variables

do you know how to round numbers


That is the level of maths you need for finance. It's a joke.

This is the classic attitude of maths and engineering students who think they absolutely own finance yet don't come anywhere near ranking top 3 in a proper finance unit. 'It's a joke'.

Did you even get a HD wam in commerce m8?

 

[Shadowdude]

This is the classic attitude of maths and engineering students who think they absolutely own finance yet don't come anywhere near ranking top 3 in a proper finance unit. 'It's a joke'.

Did you even get a HD wam in commerce m8?

it's called 'apathy'


Besides, I can learn pretty much all the financial theory I'll ever need for a job on the fly. Can the HD finance people learn all the mathematics they'll need for some of the mathematical modelling or data analysis on the fly? Nope.

 

[RishBonjour99]

In portfolio theory I had to do things like find first and second derivatives of utility functions to determine risk aversion of an investor and use matrix operations to compute alternative models to CAPM. Not to mention all the statistics and probability stuff that came with it as well.

In the risk management course, I dealt a lot with computing probabilities of defaults and some heavy statistical machinery.

In the derivatives course I had to price options using expectations of continuous random variables, which was where integration came in. Here is a sample of the solutions to an assignment we had to do:

Looks like the quantitative courses at UTS and USyd are more rigorous in their approach than UNSW lel

Did you still have Andrew for IPM (portfolio)?

We did go through the maths - he derived stuff etc but he did say we didn't really need it for the finals. Doing Derivs next sem that will definitely be more rigorous.

According to my Vals tutors, finance is much more rigorous in usyd. Only one comparable one is UMelb.

 

[RishBonjour99]

it's called 'apathy'

No. It's just false belief of superiority.

It's always funny. This random engineering kid was parading around at the start of the first FINC unit last year of how finc is going to be a breeze everything is a joke etc. Doesn't even get a HD. You can't possibly call something easy and not get at least HD without sounding like an idiot.

 

[Shadowdude]

No. It's just false belief of superiority.

It's always funny. This random engineering kid was parading around at the start of the first FINC unit last year of how finc is going to be a breeze everything is a joke etc. Doesn't even get a HD. You can't possibly call something easy and not get at least HD without sounding like an idiot.

False belief of superiority? lolwat


If you believe that, then you belittle the difficulty of the mathematics that the engineers (and especially the maths students) have to do - and that's a big red flag.

If I get 75 in a finance course but then get 90 in a maths course - what does that say? It means I couldn't be stuffed studying for finance, or I bombed out in the final, or whatever. Because people are going to go "Oh wow you got 90 in the maths course, this 75 is clearly an anomaly"

 

[kalstar]

Plz calm down everyone

 

[RishBonjour99]

False belief of superiority? lolwat


If you believe that, then you belittle the difficulty of the mathematics that the engineers (and especially the maths students) have to do - and that's a big red flag.

If I get 75 in a finance course but then get 90 in a maths course - what does that say? It means I couldn't be stuffed studying for finance, or I bombed out in the final, or whatever. Because people are going to go "Oh wow you got 90 in the maths course, this 75 is clearly an anomaly"

I am certainly not belittling Mathematics or Engineering students. Obviously they will do more complex maths - that's the nature of their course. It's just the other way around - no need to belittle Finance.

I wouldn't react that way to a mark of '90' in maths - first I would ask 1) which maths course? 2) What was the highest mark? How else is one supposed to interpret a '90' when plenty of kids pull 95+s in maths units. Also, as with most Maths/science courses - it is only really the top of the cohort that are actually creme de la crop/brilliant students - the rest are pretty sub-par.

 

[anomalousdecay]

This is just getting silly. Finance, mathematics and engineering single degree programs can not be compared just like that. There's a big difference between all, even though they might use some fundamental tools in maths for all.

 

[4025808]

M8, Maths = a lot of algebra, calculus and in general, understanding involved, as well as lots of computational questions.

Finance actually requires you to understand concepts, memorize formulae and occasionally apply maths in some of the questions. Do not ever think that learning finance at uni is easy - the questions will literally wreck you, especially if they are multiple choice. FINS1613 in 2nd sem -> you get multiple choice questions that are A, B, C, A and B, B and C, A and C, all of the above, none of the above. There is only one correct option and GG rekt if you got it wrong.

IMO I feel as if finance requires very good comprehension and decision making (especially in MCQs) compared to mathematics. The use of mathematics isn't as great in finance, but that's only a part of the situation.

But yeah, basically maths and finance are two different skill sets. If one wants to do maths, just do maths, imo.

 

[Shadowdude]

I am certainly not belittling Mathematics or Engineering students. Obviously they will do more complex maths - that's the nature of their course. It's just the other way around - no need to belittle Finance.

I wouldn't react that way to a mark of '90' in maths - first I would ask 1) which maths course? 2) What was the highest mark? How else is one supposed to interpret a '90' when plenty of kids pull 95+s in maths units. Also, as with most Maths/science courses - it is only really the top of the cohort that are actually creme de la crop/brilliant students - the rest are pretty sub-par.

Maths courses are a lot harder - in general - than finance courses. That's the point I was trying to make.

The maths that nerd posted one page or so ago? That's week 1 stuff in a second year linear models course. Trebla's integration? That's a bit more difficult but nothing extremely so.


Plus, "Plenty of kids pull 95+s in maths units"? This isn't HSC time at James Ruse, this is uni - you'll find that about 2-3% of the entire cohort will get 95+ in any unit at most.

And of course the top of the cohort will be brilliant students, but to classify everyone who doesn't get 95+ as "pretty sub-par" is extremely elitist and very ignorant.