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Media Article: School Leaving Age 18 (1 Viewer)

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As for the government thingo:

(Shudder) Governments need to see both perspectives, not just their own. It's hard, I know, but necessary.

Ah, well. At least we don't have Howard. That'd suck...

I understand your wanting to use the word "retard", but conclude that it evidently wasn't the best idea...

I think that people should be encouraged to stay at school and gain intellectual maturity, possibly by means of government funding; however, if people want to leave, they can. The trades are in a current lapse anyway, so they're doing us a favour!
 

law

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Ok I agree. Sorry for any offence taken.
 

bassistx

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law said:
Anyway, retard refers NOT to those guys that are trying their best to achieve but struggling to do well BUT those guys that don't care about learning and are only at school because their parents forced them to go. They basically come to school and make it hard for those students that are serious about their studies.
GRRRR
He, like, didn't read anything at all in here :angry:

I know people who would be better off doing an apprenticeship (ie shortcut) but their stupid parents keep them in school.
I think the problem is parents atm because the govt obviously isn't going to impose this legislation any time soon.
 

williamc

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bassistx said:
GRRRR
He, like, didn't read anything at all in here :angry:

I know people who would be better off doing an apprenticeship (ie shortcut) but their stupid parents keep them in school.
I think the problem is parents atm because the govt obviously isn't going to impose this legislation any time soon.
i personally believe you are better off going to year 12 even if you are going to do an apprenticeship.
 

williamc

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bassistx said:
Whilst people that leave in year 10 to start a trade are 2 years ahead of people that complete their hsc, people that completed their hsc have gained valuable life skills, such as maturity, and have most properly attained their provisional drivers license. Not to mention having a HSC instead of a meaningless SC. In those 2 years, you can also work out what you really want to do.

2 years in the context of your life is pretty much nothing.
 

bassistx

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aMUSEd1977 said:
How can you say that they would be better off on an apprenticeship?
Because they'll get a head start - it's what they want.
Carpenters, hairdressers, etc. They don't want to be at school and do the HSC and crap, they'd rather just get right into it.
 

bassistx

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williamc said:
Whilst people that leave in year 10 to start a trade are 2 years ahead of people that complete their hsc, people that completed their hsc have gained valuable life skills, such as maturity, and have most properly attained their provisional drivers license. Not to mention having a HSC instead of a meaningless SC. In those 2 years, you can also work out what you really want to do.

2 years in the context of your life is pretty much nothing.
Some people have been wanting to be a fireman since they were born. The majority of people who drop out get their life sorted out - apprenticeship, etc.
What's wrong with getting your licence outside of your schooling? That really doesn't make any sense. I don't think transport to/from work is the issue here. Plus, you grow up "faster" in the real world - throwing them into the deep end sometimes is the only way they'll wake up.
Whereas with the rest of us, we're suddenly 18 years old, completely independent, but never had any sort of real-life experiences - we've always been under the supervision and guidance of teachers, etc. whereas all those drop-out kids know "how things work".
 

williamc

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bassistx said:
Some people have been wanting to be a fireman since they were born. The majority of people who drop out get their life sorted out - apprenticeship, etc.
What's wrong with getting your licence outside of your schooling? That really doesn't make any sense. I don't think transport to/from work is the issue here. Plus, you grow up "faster" in the real world - throwing them into the deep end sometimes is the only way they'll wake up.
Whereas with the rest of us, we're suddenly 18 years old, completely independent, but never had any sort of real-life experiences - we've always been under the supervision and guidance of teachers, etc. whereas all those drop-out kids know "how things work".
1) people that have wanting to be a fireman their whole life can skill gain those valulable life skills as formentioned.
2) You obviously don't know much about the trades. Without a licence you are pretty much fucked. You won't be hired to be an automotive technician (mechanic), and for most of the other building trades, how do you propose they get to the job site? Get daddy to drop em off at 6 in the morning?
3)that is why university is great.
 

bassistx

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williamc said:
1) people that have wanting to be a fireman their whole life can skill gain those valulable life skills as formentioned.
2) You obviously don't know much about the trades. Without a licence you are pretty much fucked. You won't be hired to be an automotive technician (mechanic), and for most of the other building trades, how do you propose they get to the job site? Get daddy to drop em off at 6 in the morning?
3)that is why university is great.
Life skills such as singing the national anthem every week if not everyday to make sure they don't forget it, answer roll calls, put your hand up to speak, etc. Seriously, the only things I see that would be of benefit are organisational skills and time management. But you have to remember that these kids have been in school for 11 years already. Plus the stress of the HSC shouldn't be something they have to hack to get those "life skills".

Public transport exists but many people have arranged something, I don't think that it's a good enough reason to stay in school. But I see your point.
 

williamc

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bassistx said:
Life skills such as singing the national anthem every week if not everyday to make sure they don't forget it, answer roll calls, put your hand up to speak, etc. Seriously, the only things I see that would be of benefit are organisational skills and time management. But you have to remember that these kids have been in school for 11 years already. Plus the stress of the HSC shouldn't be something they have to hack to get those "life skills".

Public transport exists but many people have arranged something, I don't think that it's a good enough reason to stay in school. But I see your point.
lol year 12 isn't stressful.

lololol a tradesman turning up to work in a taxi, that would be feasbile and economical wouldn't it!

Anyways thats my opinon.
 

bassistx

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williamc said:
lol year 12 isn't stressful.

lololol a tradesman turning up to work in a taxi, that would be feasbile and economical wouldn't it!

Anyways thats my opinon.
Where are they going to get the money for the car? Unless their parents are loaded, students can't afford to purchase a car and their parents take theirs to work. So what do you suggest they drive?
I'm not even going to respond to that year 12 comment.
aMUSEd1977 said:
What about trouble makers, who don't know what they want to do? Should they be forced into trades? Furthermore, there are individuals who leave to take up a trade, and end up having it fall through, or them find they hate it and end up without qualification, and holding a meager School Certificate.
There are so many options out there. You can go to TAFE and then go to uni -articulation. Better yet, if you have experience in your field, you may be able to go straight to uni. You can get credit transfers (because you'll obviously be studying at TAFE whilst undertaking an apprenticeship); there's the option of entering as a mature age student. Life doesn't end.
I didn't say people should be forced into a trade!
I wanted to be Prime Minister from the time I was born, until year 10. Am I going to be Prime Minister? No. Am I going to try? No. Find me statistics that will give a representation of the percentage of students who have a clear vision for their future at age 15. I'd love to see it.
Look, they don't have to leave at 15. They can leave at 16. They can leave whenever they want. But they should have at least some sort of idea because they have to select their subjects for their prelim/hsc and in doing so, have to check uni course pre-requisties. Most people say "either this or that" so they have some sort of idea of what they need to study, expected UAI, etc. They take subjects because they scale well, etc. - these students know what they're doing, and they're trying to maximise their results. I'm talking about my cohort and cohorts in other schools which I know of - not statistics.
You love making sweeping generalisations, don't you? Many teenagers who continue on with schooling until Year 12 have a part time job, and feel some level of independance outside of their school lives. And I'm sure that you'll find a lot of teachers treating you differently once you reach year twelve. They are less inclined to be supervising as strictly as they would junior classes, and increasingly treat you like adults.
More students (again, that I know of) don't have part-time jobs BECAUSE they are in year 12 and the HSC etc. It's hard for them (us, rather) to balance work, family, friends, plus the HSC. Yes, teachers treat you differently. But they are still there to guide you, give you homework, etc. They can give you detention, you have to show up to classes, etc. University isn't like this, so I don't know what William was on about when he said "uni is good for this" or whatever. It's a completely different system. You have more freedom.
Finally, I'd like you to read these:

http://i27.tinypic.com/174lft.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/2lnfkvs.jpg
http://i31.tinypic.com/2cnt7oh.jpg

Source: The working class and transformation of education (I'll double check this later) by Jack Barnes.

Disregarding it's left-wing stance - I've highlighted the important bits in red.
It's sad, but true: you don't need to be very "educated" to be a blue-collar worker. This book is like poetry.

EDIT: The book is called The Working Class and the Transformation of Learning.
 
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lala2

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No don't raise the age! Does Labor seriously have nothing better to do than think about raising the legal drinking age and raising the age of when you can legally leave school? Go focus on our transport, education, security, water and more important issues!

I think if you make them go to TAFE or undergo some sort of training after leaving school that would be good, but god does the government at all levels nowadays have nothing better to do?
 

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bassistx said:
Where are they going to get the money for the car? Unless their parents are loaded, students can't afford to purchase a car and their parents take theirs to work. So what do you suggest they drive?
I'm not even going to respond to that year 12 comment.
Umm most of the people in my grade had their own car in year 12. and no i don't go to some rich school. (proally 80% of people)
 

boris

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My first car was a $500 1986 Colt. It was fucking awesome.
The radio didn't work, the speakers didn't work, the air conditioning didn't work (but the heater did). Other than that it was an A+ vehicle and cost $40 to fill up.

So you know. It's entirely possible to get a decent car (after rego and a few other bits and pieces the grand total was about $1500 but meh) for not a lot of money.

stfu
 

bassistx

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aMUSEd1977 said:
Your comment did not address the issue I raised, which was apprenticeships falling through. There is no contention to the fact that there are many alternative entry options into university, and it seems that you have avoided the point of the statement you quoted, and that was that what happens to those students who don't complete (or even start) their apprenticeship? If they aren't at TAFE, they won't be getting the TAFE qualifications, and credit for subjects completed.
The alternative to university is TAFE/private colleges. If their apprenticeship fell through, I seriously don't know why they can't do another course or something. Same applies to uni. Cadetships can fall through. Big fucking deal. You take risks, learn from mistakes, and start over.
If they can't balance those things during the HSC, they'll always struggle to do it throughout life. Balancing work and home is a life skill that comes with the HSC. Teachers during the final years of school act in a way that is more parallel to a boss, rather than a dictator. You are given you work, told to go and do it, but provide punishment if you don't do it. There is no contention that this is provides less freedom than university, but it is more than you get in previous years of high school. It is a gradual progression. That is, the older you get, the more responsibility for your own actions you get. No one is arguing that university doesn't provide more freedom. I'm sure you will find this fact is common knowledge.

These "life skills" can be aquired outside of the classroom, I'm sure you'll agree. I know myself and my situation. I've done the right thing by doing Pathways and deferring my units, etc. This gives me more time to think, plan, etc. All I'm saying is that if you know what you want - go for it. If you don't, then take your time. Clearly I'm not just preaching here but leading by example.
The older you get, the more responsibilities you'll take on, regardless of whether or not you attend school.
It's the same page, three times over. No one has made any claim that to get into a blue collar job, you will always need a university degree.
It's not about a university degree. It's about the extent of your compulsory education.

And to William: male maturity is reached at the age of 30. So that clearly is a ridiculous argument unless you'd like to stay in school 'til then.

I didn't mean to get political, but this is from another discussion:
Under a capitalist system, there will never be an educational revolution. Educational reform is all bullcrap. Because it's not about the workers. Because competition exists and people don't work together to form a society, but rather, work against each other in the hopes of profits. Tradespeople hardly need to be literate. After some years, their job becomes something they do automatically. It comes with experience and little or no concentration and considerations need to go into that process - in fact, there is no thought-to-action process, it is straight to action - to manufacturing and constructing. The system does not support subbantials - if workers were given half pay for 6-12months every 3 years to travel overseas, study, and meet people, they could broaden their perspective and become more involved in the decision-making process and become citizens of the world. Workers are not encouraged to complete their education. It's the complete opposite - youth are told to leave school and pick up an apprenticeship/traineeship or join the defence forces. As important as education, knowledge, and learning is, in a capitalist system it is a crisis and it is never going to undergo any kind of revolution (sorry, Rudd) and so instead of wasting 2 years studying things which are of no value after school (unless you're going to be a literary critic, I don't see how English etc is going to help you) and "life skills" are aquired outside of the classroom - they are LIFE skills, not EDUCATIONAL skills. We are not educated, we are indoctrinated. Many times I have sat in class thinking to myself "Yeah, right, and Santa Claus exists". Many times I have challenged teachers who became furious instead of encouraging myself and others to think for ourselves. Many times I have received poor grades because my work was "too advanced for my year" and "couldn't possibly be mine". We must memorise and then regurgitate everything they feed us. I cannot remember the last time English was taught as a language. I do not remember studying basic, simple grammar let alone complex and exceptionally well constructed writing. With words come power. We are not taught how to use these words. Our vocabulary lists after primary "education" are non-existant. I in all honesty never memorised the times tables. And I got through fine. I did Advanced Maths in my junior years and 2u math in year 11. But come Factorising and I can't remember a single thing so the road ended there and I dropped down to General Mathematics. After some time, finally realising that I don't know what 3x9 etc is and I've made it this far - why do I need to continue doing math? Are all of those things going to help me in the future? Survivial insticts take over and the obvious answer is no. We are not taught how to contribute to society, how to work together and achieve together. Educational revolutionaries are a lovely ideal, but ideals that aren't going to work. You have to be realistic. First you (both/either) say that people should be able to leave then you say no, they should stay in school. Make up your minds. But in the end, whether they start their apprenticeship now or 2 years later there is always the chance that their apprenticeship may "fall through" and their "HSC" will not be of any value to them if they want to go to university without going through other processes (unitest or articulation, etc). This is because (again, this is in regards to what I physically see around me, I do not intend on a degree in statistics simply for your pleasure) people who have set their minds on an apprenticeship after school will either not qualify for a UAI because they include BE courses etc. or they will get a UAI of 30 because they thought they wouldn't need it and didn't take school seriously. A lot of my friends are in this situation. They all plan on TAFE and they aren't going to get UAIs. Not to mention they're practically failing everything. So their HSC in this case is just an accessory. They might repeat the HSC, they might just go to TAFE. Who knows? But Pathways also exists so if they had to take 10 units (5x2u subjects), they could just do one subject for the HSC examinations every year for 5 years. They get ahead with their apprenticeship and receive formal qualifications and they also eventually get their HSC and a UAI for "back-up". They might decide after receiving their qualifications (3 or 4 years?), they'll go ahead and do all their remaining units for the HSC.
The point is, there are lots of options. But with an apprenticeship, you get real-life, on-site training and experience plus you get to earn some money whilst you study - not much different from a cadetship, except you don't get a Bachelor of Carpenting majoring in Organic Woods.
The sad truth is that you don't need to be smart or educated or even literate* to be a blue-collar worker. I do not mean this in a degrading sense, but in a sense that it's a shame there won't be anything done about it.
*If you take this "exaggeration" literally you are less intelligent than the next-door neighbour's cat.
 

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Schroedinger said:
Are you retarded? You can get a half decent car for about a grand. My mate bought a 93 BMW and did it up for less than 2K and it works a charm. Gorgeous car, too.
boris said:
My first car was a $500 1986 Colt. It was fucking awesome.
The radio didn't work, the speakers didn't work, the air conditioning didn't work (but the heater did). Other than that it was an A+ vehicle and cost $40 to fill up.

So you know. It's entirely possible to get a decent car (after rego and a few other bits and pieces the grand total was about $1500 but meh) for not a lot of money.

stfu
Unless they are receiving pocket money if they don't have a part-time job and saving up for ages, then they don't have the funds to purchase a car no matter how cheap it is. You can get cars for $50 ffs. But you haven't considered the SOURCE of said funds.
 

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bassistx said:
And to William: male maturity is reached at the age of 30. So that clearly is a ridiculous argument unless you'd like to stay in school 'til then.
Um no. Studies have shown that men are unable to assess danger and risks as effectively as women until atleast the age of 30. This has nothing to do with maturity and more to do with brain development and risk management.

Men have also been proven to engage in "discounting the future" which is where they're more likely to prefer immediate rewards to greater ones in the future. This is biological.

Tradespeople hardly need to be literate. It comes with experience and little or no concentration and considerations need to go into that process - in fact, there is no thought-to-action process, it is straight to action - to manufacturing and constructing.
You have obviously never been on a building site with qualified builders and carpenters. Oddly enough you need to be literate to read and draw plans and having seen the amount of concentration it takes to cement a slab with a 2-5mm tolerance... well, you're an idiot.

Many times I have received poor grades because my work was "too advanced for my year" and "couldn't possibly be mine".
Having seen the calibre of your work thus far I find that hard to believe.

The sad truth is that you don't need to be smart or educated or even literate* to be a blue-collar worker. I do not mean this in a degrading sense, but in a sense that it's a shame there won't be anything done about it.
Why does there need to be anything done about it? If Joe Smith is happy in the knowledge that he isn't academic but is a brilliant builder, why does he need to take a pay cut and go see the world so that in your eyes he can be a better citizen?

Fuck you talk some shit. Honestly.
 

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bassistx said:
*If you take this "exaggeration" literally you are less intelligent than the next-door neighbour's cat.
I already answered you.

Workers are not given the time to expand on their knowledge. You're twisting my words and taking them out of context. Ah, sweet revenge.
 

boris

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bassistx said:
I already answered you.

Workers are not given the time to expand on their knowledge. You're twisting my words and taking them out of context. Ah, sweet revenge.
Why would you bother saying it in the first place if you're then going to post that it was an exaggeration? Why not just post what you really think?

I didn't take it out of context. You're a twit. I haven't seen your argument as to how sending people overseas to study and see the world is going to broaden their horizons. If they're not academic in any sense and if they're quite content being a blue collar worker, why should they have to go overseas in order to be educated.

Expand on WHAT knowledge? How is going overseas and studying going to expand their knowledge? And knowledge of WHAT?
 

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