Murali (2 Viewers)

[Seraph]

Good on ya !!!
go for gold!!!

 

[RiCe_GrOwEr]

Wodner if you'll get no - balled by your local umpire?

 

[acmilan]

If he does then tell him to pay for the investigation. If the investigation finds it illegal, then you can stoip

 

[ZeGoat]

Quote from another website:
Northern Territory's member Mr. Kelly labels Mr. Howard a "Turkey" over the chucker remarks.

lol.... a turkey...

 

[Pace Setter]

Originally posted by Skip
Murali is a legend!!!!!
Technically he "chucks" his doosra, the thing is that this is only according to the ICC's current laws which allows fast bowlers 10 degrees of straightening and spin bowlers 5. His arm-speed is the same as a normal fast bowler's therefore he should be allowed into the 10 degrees category (his doosra is 10 degrees). The University of Western Australia (UOWA) ( the place where he was tested to see if he chucked) said the laws aren't adequate and ill-based, the experts recomended that Murali's doosra should be allowed until more research has been put into spin bowling and its bio-mechanics.
Also the the UOWA said that Murali doesn't gain any advantage by straightening his arm 10 degrees, he gets it from his helicopter (super-elastic) wrists which allows him to impart amazing amounts of spin on the ball.
For those of you who still aren't convinced: the fact that he cant straighten his arm fully creates the illusion that he chucks, an illusion many people have fallen for). If we take into account his disability (Inability to fully straighten his arm) it appears he delivers the ball at 30 degrees but because he can't straighten past about 15 it really is only 10-15, which according to the UOWA should be the acceptable limit.
Anyway, I hope you understood this and accept that Murali doesn't chuck.

His arm speed is similar to a fast bowlers', and therefore his bowling should be legislated as a fast bowler? First of all, where's your evidence for this? How are you certain that other spin bowler's dont fall under the same criteria. Also, what if OTHER spin bowlers started bowling with a "quicker arm action?" Does that mean they're allowed an extra 5 degrees too?

"Murali doesn't gain any advantage by straightening his arm 10 degrees"

Are you suggesting that the doosra is NOT an advantage? Until Murali learns to bowl it without bending it more than 5 degrees, you'd be a blind man to not see the advantage here.

"For those of you who still aren't convinced: the fact that he cant straighten his arm fully creates the illusion that he chucks, an illusion many people have fallen for"

Good information. Although just about every man and his grandmother in Australia have heard this already.

It seems as if you are of the view that Murali HAS breached the current ICC laws, which you are firmly against. This, I hope you realize, is an entirely different issue altogether. Most people who believe that he is a chucker, believe it because they consider him to have broken the rules of cricket; the rules set down by the ICC. These rules, of course, deem his stock delivery in controlled conditions as within their limit, and his doosra in controlled conditions to be beyond the limit. Most, as you may have found, do not care whether these rules are of the greatest benefit to Australian cricket, and cricket in general. They are only concerned with the fact that it has been tested that one of his more unique deliveries has transgressed the ICC law. Sometimes, that is all that matters. Sometimes, that single piece of information is enough to deem him a cheater/chucker.

Or do you consider him to be "clean," even by the ICC Laws?

 

[ZeGoat]

Originally posted by Pace Setter
His arm speed is similar to a fast bowlers', and therefore his bowling should be legislated as a fast bowler? First of all, where's your evidence for this? How are you certain that other spin bowler's dont fall under the same criteria. Also, what if OTHER spin bowlers started bowling with a "quicker arm action?" Does that mean they're allowed an extra 5 degrees too?

"Murali doesn't gain any advantage by straightening his arm 10 degrees"

Are you suggesting that the doosra is NOT an advantage? Until Murali learns to bowl it without bending it more than 5 degrees, you'd be a blind man to not see the advantage here.

"For those of you who still aren't convinced: the fact that he cant straighten his arm fully creates the illusion that he chucks, an illusion many people have fallen for"

Good information. Although just about every man and his grandmother in Australia have heard this already.

It seems as if you are of the view that Murali HAS breached the current ICC laws, which you are firmly against. This, I hope you realize, is an entirely different issue altogether. Most people who believe that he is a chucker, believe it because they consider him to have broken the rules of cricket; the rules set down by the ICC. These rules, of course, deem his stock delivery in controlled conditions as within their limit, and his doosra in controlled conditions to be beyond the limit. Most, as you may have found, do not care whether these rules are of the greatest benefit to Australian cricket, and cricket in general. They are only concerned with the fact that it has been tested that one of his more unique deliveries has transgressed the ICC law. Sometimes, that is all that matters. Sometimes, that single piece of information is enough to deem him a cheater/chucker.

Or do you consider him to be "clean," even by the ICC Laws?

firstly, the people in western australia are the ones that came up with this statement from the testing they did on his action and comparing it with results obtained from fast bowlers, and yes if other spin bowlers did start bowling "with a quicker arm action", i suppose they do get an extra 5 degree allowance...
for "Murali doesn't gain any advantage by straightening his arm 10 degrees", he doesnt, if you read da whole piece of text from which u quoted, u will have seen that it is together with the elasticity in his wrist that allows him to bowl the way he his...
And for your third critique on "for those who still no convinced..." why bother saying it again if everyone already knows it? and ure last paragraph is too confusin to read.... what exactly are you trying to say.................... and i believe that him to be clean as everyone else will see soon when he is allowed to bowl the doosra by the ICC...

 

[Vampire]

Murali's coming to Australia right?
I wonder what kind of reception he'll get - even though they are playing in the north of the country.

 

[Pace Setter]

Originally posted by ZeGoat
firstly, the people in western australia are the ones that came up with this statement from the testing they did on his action and comparing it with results obtained from fast bowlers, and yes if other spin bowlers did start bowling "with a quicker arm action", i suppose they do get an extra 5 degree allowance...
for "Murali doesn't gain any advantage by straightening his arm 10 degrees", he doesnt, if you read da whole piece of text from which u quoted, u will have seen that it is together with the elasticity in his wrist that allows him to bowl the way he his...
And for your third critique on "for those who still no convinced..." why bother saying it again if everyone already knows it? and ure last paragraph is too confusin to read.... what exactly are you trying to say.................... and i believe that him to be clean as everyone else will see soon when he is allowed to bowl the doosra by the ICC...

It seems you've confused/missed the whole argument/point that I just made. Please explain to me, this time more concisly, how in the world he could NOT have an advantage with the extra 5 degrees when he has been tested to have been UNABLE to bowl his doosra within the lmit, yet IS capable of staying within this same limit with his stock delivery, in controlled conditions. This basic point is the crux of the reason on WHY they tested him...which is also the basic point in my last paragraph.

The stuff you wrote above strays from discussing/arguing with the points I raised...almost as if you're talking to someone else. Please read it again...more carefully. Keep in mind that text within inverted commas are from another poster.

 

[Pace Setter]

Originally posted by Vampire
Murali's coming to Australia right?
I wonder what kind of reception he'll get - even though they are playing in the north of the country.

Probably a couple of boos and calls of chucker after each delivery...but wont be anything compared to the explosion that would eventuate once he gets someone out.

 

[ZeGoat]

Originally posted by Pace Setter
It seems you've confused/missed the whole argument/point that I just made. Please explain to me, this time more concisly, how in the world he could NOT have an advantage with the extra 5 degrees when he has been tested to have been UNABLE to bowl his doosra within the lmit, yet IS capable of staying within this same limit with his stock delivery, in controlled conditions. This basic point is the crux of the reason on WHY they tested him...which is also the basic point in my last paragraph.

The stuff you wrote above strays from discussing/arguing with the points I raised...almost as if you're talking to someone else. Please read it again...more carefully. Keep in mind that text within inverted commas are from another poster.

i have not missed the point, i understand that the extra 5 degrees gives may give him an advantage, but are you saying that all types of spin deliveries are bowled with the elbow in the same angle? i dont think so, it varies with each delivery and each type of ball.... he bends a little more for the doosra which pushes him over the line, but that line is should be pushed back because he doesnt start from 0degrees... and you want to know why they tested him, well to see the angle, and i understand the viewpoint of some who believe that being tested in controlled conditions is different to the real thing but the controlled bowling footage was compared with real match bowling and was deem ed to be the same bowls....and im presumin ure referrin to da bits in quotation marks and i figured it was what someone else had said but i was commenting on the fact that you decided to mention that last quote thing if it was really so obvious and unnecessary... and sorry if what i said before was straying from the topic, argument....

Originally posted by Pace Setter
Probably a couple of boos and calls of chucker after each delivery...but wont be anything compared to the explosion that would eventuate once he gets someone out.

and on that note, that will only happen in australia and possible england, have you ever seen anything like that happen in another country...

 

[Pace Setter]

Originally posted by ZeGoat
i have not missed the point, i understand that the extra 5 degrees gives may give him an advantage, but are you saying that all types of spin deliveries are bowled with the elbow in the same angle? i dont think so, it varies with each delivery and each type of ball.... he bends a little more for the doosra which pushes him over the line, but that line is should be pushed back because he doesnt start from 0degrees... and you want to know why they tested him, well to see the angle, and i understand the viewpoint of some who believe that being tested in controlled conditions is different to the real thing but the controlled bowling footage was compared with real match bowling and was deem ed to be the same bowls....and im presumin ure referrin to da bits in quotation marks and i figured it was what someone else had said but i was commenting on the fact that you decided to mention that last quote thing if it was really so obvious and unnecessary... and sorry if what i said before was straying from the topic, argument....



and on that note, that will only happen in australia and possible england, have you ever seen anything like that happen in another country...

Are you saying that all "deformed" bowlers should be given an extra 5 degrees leeway? Well the point I was making originally had more to do with how people actualy considered him a chucker simply because he broke the existing rules...

Anyway, what about fast bowlers with deformed arms? Also, have you considered the possibility that if this rule was established, it would give every deformed bowler an opportunity to literally "throw" because of the extra leeway?

Even if they've analysed and compared EVERY single ball of a match to his testing, it hasnt accounted for other, more pressured games. You cant discount the possibility of ANY bowler putting in "that little bit extra" when the games 50/50...or if he's teams losing. Unless they've thoroughly analysed and compared every single ball in his career, which I doubt.

No, I havent seen it outside Aus and Eng, simply b-coz I havent seen the crowds in other countries.

 

[ZeGoat]

Originally posted by Pace Setter
Are you saying that all "deformed" bowlers should be given an extra 5 degrees leeway? Well the point I was making originally had more to do with how people actualy considered him a chucker simply because he broke the existing rules...

Anyway, what about fast bowlers with deformed arms? Also, have you considered the possibility that if this rule was established, it would give every deformed bowler an opportunity to literally "throw" because of the extra leeway?

Even if they've analysed and compared EVERY single ball of a match to his testing, it hasnt accounted for other, more pressured games. You cant discount the possibility of ANY bowler putting in "that little bit extra" when the games 50/50...or if he's teams losing. Unless they've thoroughly analysed and compared every single ball in his career, which I doubt.

No, I havent seen it outside Aus and Eng, simply b-coz I havent seen the crowds in other countries.

are you saying that people with a deformity or disability should be penalised because of it and not have the same permitted elbow allowance that their counterparts would have? and as the tests that were carried out and report of action from the tester's states, the existing rules have to be slightly amended...

and if fast bowlers have "deformed" arms, they shouldn't be set at a disadvantage because of it...

when they are comparing im presuming that would have randomly selected his bowling from randomly selected matches, and really if the general elbow angle had changed it would have been noticed. and for the extra pressure situations, i refer you to something that has been said in this thread before, he has a high-elasticity wrist which he can use to enhance his bowling, which under any rules is legal...

and didnt you watch any world cup matches with sri lanka playing...?

 

[budj]

Look Pace settler. Its a proven fact that Murali does not gain extra advantage from his additional arm bed. His talent lies in his wrist, like all do.
Furthermore, the Doosora is not only unique to Murali. Harbajan Singh also has it in his artilery.

Now should he or should he not be defined as a pace bowler in accordance to his arm rotational speed, which consequently matches that of a pacemans arm rotational speed. Therefore shouldn't he be considered as a paceman who can inflit spin, therefore be governed by the angle determinants for pace bowlers?

Although I am proberbly biased. Im also lankan

 

[Pace Setter]

Originally posted by ZeGoat
are you saying that people with a deformity or disability should be penalised because of it and not have the same permitted elbow allowance that their counterparts would have?

He's not being penalised. He should be treated under the same rules as everyone else. The rules shouldnt be modified simply because he suffers this deformity. Would you, say, in an olympic running race, give a one-legged athlete a head start, simply because he is deformed? How about making everyone hop on one leg in the race, just so everyone gets a fair go?

Originally posted by ZeGoat
and as the tests that were carried out and report of action from the tester's states, the existing rules have to be slightly amended...

And until then, it is reason enough for most to call him a "cheater" or "chucker," as his doosra is currently not within the rules

Originally posted by ZeGoat
when they are comparing im presuming that would have randomly selected his bowling from randomly selected matches, and really if the general elbow angle had changed it would have been noticed. and for the extra pressure situations, i refer you to something that has been said in this thread before, he has a high-elasticity wrist which he can use to enhance his bowling, which under any rules is legal...

So what if he more blatently "threw" in a pressure situation. All his deliveries contain some kind of optical illusion, so how could you tell if he increased his arm angle, to say, 15-20 degrees?

Originally posted by ZeGoat
and didnt you watch any world cup matches with sri lanka playing...?

TV obscures what the crowads actually say, so I cant really comment on until I've been to a match outside of Aus.

 

[Pace Setter]

Originally posted by budj
Look Pace settler. Its a proven fact that Murali does not gain extra advantage from his additional arm bed. His talent lies in his wrist, like all do.

Are you suggesting that his additional arm bend affects 0% of the outcome of his delivery? The skill in bowling the doosra may, as you say, primarily be the result of an extra-flexible wrist. However, this extra increase in arm bend in relation to his stock delivery suggests that the bend in arm is, regardless how small, a a significant factor in his bowling of this delivery. The fact stands, that, one of his deliveries is within the currently-allowable limit, and the other, not so. As I've already mentioned, until/if he manages to limit his arm-bending when bowling the doosra, or until/if the rules are changed, people will continue to justifiably call him a "chucker," because as I've said, this particular delivery DOES transcend the ICC rules where his stock delivery DOESNT.

Originally posted by budj
Now should he or should he not be defined as a pace bowler in accordance to his arm rotational speed, which consequently matches that of a pacemans arm rotational speed. Therefore shouldn't he be considered as a paceman who can inflit spin, therefore be governed by the angle determinants for pace bowlers?

Dont know. Have to check the ICC's definition of "pace bowler" and "spin bowler"

 

[ZeGoat]

Originally posted by Pace Setter
He's not being penalised. He should be treated under the same rules as everyone else. The rules shouldnt be modified simply because he suffers this deformity. Would you, say, in an olympic running race, give a one-legged athlete a head start, simply because he is deformed? How about making everyone hop on one leg in the race, just so everyone gets a fair go?



And until then, it is reason enough for most to call him a "cheater" or "chucker," as his doosra is currently not within the rules



So what if he more blatently "threw" in a pressure situation. All his deliveries contain some kind of optical illusion, so how could you tell if he increased his arm angle, to say, 15-20 degrees?



TV obscures what the crowads actually say, so I cant really comment on until I've been to a match outside of Aus.

treating him with the same rules give him a lower tolerance level than other bowlers... and for your athlete with one leg there is the paralympics where competitors may not just be judged against their competitor alone...

yes i suppose you can call him that until the time in the not to distant future when he will be allowed to bowl it...

as you said an optical illusion, which is something a a human eye can see which may not be true, that is why the comparisons would not have been just by humans, but will be compared using computers as well...

well even on tv, you can hear/see calls of chucker in australia, you can usually see some sort of sign...

 

[RUB!X]

murali aka chucker wont come to australia because of personal problems! bull shit ... "im not going to australia coz der mean and nasty, they call me names and der pm sez i chuck" WAAAAAH boo hoo hoo u fn diked peice of shit come play australia u scared whinging lankan diked ...

 

[ZeGoat]

stfu, itz partly because of people like you that he isnt coming, think about it, if you went overseas to play a game and a majority of the crowd were throwing insults at you how would you feel u piece of shit...

 

[RUB!X]

im not a cricketer, im not a chucker and im not lankan so i dont give a stuff u peice of shit ...
he (murali chucker) is, well supposed to be a professional cricketer, he is supposed to deal with that, if he cant handle the preassure and he wants to curl up into a corner the scared little fuck then really i dont give a shit, australia will kill em anyways ...

 

[ZeGoat]

i refer you to this article
i t pretty much says what im thinking...