Muslim headscarves (2 Viewers)

[tempco]

I understand, what I don't understand is why.

again, there is no one reason i can give you - it depends purely on the individual. for example, many muslim women became muslim because of islam's attitudes towards women. by accepting islam, they then learn about islamic history, law and the quran itself, and embrace the belief that the quran is the word of god. The content of the quran is sometimes enough to convince people of its authenticity - i mean, topics such as astronomy, embryology, human and animal biology, etc are addressed in the quran, and some of these discoveries have only been made in the last century or so (bear in mind that the quran was revealed to a illiterate man 1400 years ago).

1. Mmm. Life as a test. Perfectly logical assumption. Make some beings who are innately flawed. Then punish them for doing the wrong thing (which they are determined to do anyway). Cause massive disasters which they have no control over that kill huge quantities of people (thereby removing any logic of testing them). Kill babies at birth (not much chance for a test there). "Life as a test" has to be the most ridiculous argument, honestly.

yes, all of us are innately flawed. and god makes it clear that almost any sin will be forgiven as long as you repent (and no, performing a sin with the intention of repenting later does not fall under the category of "repentance" - that's hypocracy). i guess this cycle of sin/repentance serves as a reminder that everyone will be judged by the actions, and that status, wealth and power are of no consequence in front of god. i mean, in the world we live in today, the prevalent attitude is that you can get away with anything, as long as you have the money/power.

and how does a massive disaster remove any logic of testing us? we can die at any given time - muslims are told to live everyday as though it's our last, and to make the most of the time we have. what would be the point of testing us if everyone were to die at the age of 70 in our sleep? so that we can party up when we're young, and settle down into a quiet, spiritual lifestyle in our later years?

we are only judged once we've past puberty - the time when we're physically capable of identifying right from wrong. of course, those who cannot are exempt from punishment (e.g. mentally ill people).

2. Any doctrine of belief which requires humans to place emphasis on a "future life" and to inhibit the full human potential of the individual in this world (which is highly likely to be the true and only world), takes civilization backwards. It is the greatest waste of life that can possibly be concocted to see life as a rehearsal. Life is not a rehearsal.

1. islam places emphasis on a "future life", through this life.
2. islam does not inhibit human potential.
3. life is not a rehearsal.

muslims believe that we're representatives of god on earth. how else are we to represent god, apart from living a fulfilling life? going to school is a form of worship. going to uni to learn is a form of worship. getting your masters or phd is a form of worship. getting married is a form of worship. having kids is a form of worship. being successful at whatever you do is a form of worship.

islam is a way of life. we don't seperate life and religion. work and religion. everything we do is intertwined with religion. it is a religious obligation to seek knowledge, and to be excel in whatever you do. i mean, public education was mandated by the prophet 1000 years ago.

it seems like your perception of religion isn't very accurate (in relation to islam anyway). a pious muslim isn't one that sits in a corner and reads the quran all day, everyday. a pious muslim is someone who is in society, contributes positively (to the best of his/her ability), within the laws of islam.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

No case to answer. Since you can't prove God exists, in my opinion your argument fails. But I'm not going to perpetuate an off-topic discussion, so back on topic: muslim headscarves.

 

[tempco]

No case to answer. Since you can't prove God exists, in my opinion your argument fails. But I'm not going to perpetuate an off-topic discussion, so back on topic: muslim headscarves.

if by prove, you mean empirically, then no, i can't.

but there is enough evidence within the quran itself, imo, that proves god exists.

yes, back to the scarf.

 

[SabtheLab]

moonlight, just as you are convinced of the non-existence of God we are equally convinced of the existence of God. you cannot prove that God doesn't exist anymore than we can give you definitive proof that he does (although you have a much harder case to argue). by empirical methods, neither of us can prove our points we can only hypothesise. you'll rely on science and the tangible world to support your case while we will go beyond the realm of the finite physical world and explain both its origin and itrs purpose which really is a science in itself, although the greater science. you give us the observation ( science and the physical world)( and we give u the greater explanation( God).

so really, were in a better position to argue than you

 

[MoonlightSonata]

moonlight, just as you are convinced of the non-existence of God we are equally convinced of the existence of God. You cannot prove that God doesn't exist anymore than we can give you definitive proof that he does

Correct, I cannot prove there is no God definitely - and indeed I do not believe that anyway. (Although I can argue that the conception of an all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful God is a contradiction.)

(although you have a much harder case to argue).

My case is not that God does not exist, it is that we cannot know whether God exists and we must therefore withhold judgment. So no, my case is not harder to argue.

(And by-the-by, even if I was an atheist, my case would be much easier to argue anyway; there is far more reason to suppose that God does not exist than God does exist.)

by empirical methods, neither of us can prove our points we can only hypothesise. you'll rely on science and the tangible world to support your case while we will go beyond the realm of the finite physical world and explain both its origin and itrs purpose which really is a science in itself, although the greater science. you give us the observation ( science and the physical world)( and we give u the greater explanation( God).

I really can't be bothered explaining this anymore, so I will say this:

1. Do a basic, first-year philosophy course when you get to uni.
2. 'God' is not an explanation. Do a google search on "Occam's razor".
3. All of your silly claims about God are refuted here.

I will not add any other remarks about God in this thread.

 

[tempco]

1. Do a basic, first-year philosophy course when you get to uni.

that's one thing that i agree with. sucks to have to wait till 2nd year.

 

[spell check]

even if 'god' exists, wouldn't it be more likely just to be some supremely intelligent force that somehow triggered creation of the universe

why would it care whether or not you go to church or whether you wear a hat - remember that this 'god' will have created the entire universe of which humans are a fantastically minute part.

the chances of any religion being "correct" are so incredibly mind blowingly small

to put it more eloquently, religion has to be changed as Jack Spong suggests:

. Theism, as a way of defining God, is dead. So most theological God-talk is today meaningless. A new way to speak of God must be found.

2. Since God can no longer be conceived in theistic terms, it becomes nonsensical to seek to understand Jesus as the incarnation of the theistic deity. So the Christology of the ages is bankrupt.

3. The biblical story of the perfect and finished creation from which human beings fell into sin is pre-Darwinian mythology and post-Darwinian nonsense.

4. The virgin birth, understood as literal biology, makes Christ’s divinity, as traditionally understood, impossible.

5. The miracle stories of the New Testament can no longer be interpreted in a post-Newtonian world as supernatural events performed by an incarnate deity.

6. The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.

7. Resurrection is an action of God. Jesus was raised into the meaning of God. It therefore cannot be a physical resuscitation [from death] occurring inside human history.

8. The story of the Ascension assumed a three-tiered universe and is therefore not capable of being translated into the concepts of a post-Copernican space age.

9. There is no external, objective, revealed standard writ in scripture or on tablets of stone that will govern our ethical behavior for all time.

10. Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.

11. The hope for life after death must be separated forever from the behavior control mentality of reward and punishment. The Church must abandon, therefore, its reliance on guilt as a motivator of behavior.

12. All human beings bear God’s image and must be respected for what each person is. Therefore, no external description of one’s being, whether based on race, ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation, can properly be used as the basis for either rejection or discrimination.”

 

[Comrade nathan]

you give us the observation ( science and the physical world)( and we give u the greater explanation( God).

so really, were in a better position to argue than you

No, it is the Materialist/atheist who is a better position.

Throughout history there has been many attempts to give the greater explanation of a the existence of Gods or God. All ended up collapse and losing their support base, once the ruling class adopted new religions which fitted their society better.

On the other hand, science is always moving in a progressive way and correcting mistakes. Everytime science does make progress and it becomes widely accepted religion always follows that trend, so they may no longer say such things as the earth is center of the universe. All of sudden parts of text are interepted differently, and some are considered not to be taken literally

Also i don't like this idea that saying you can't prove that god does not exist, therefore we can believe what we want. There is no need to prove that god does not exist. Do we have to prove that Zeus does not exist, what about ever other religion claimed throughout history?

By your logic we can believe what we want, and be right. We can believe what we like but there is only one truth.

 

[googooloo]

Wow, well, see here is the point she was making, that in the Qur'an that there are no specific dress codes as such, just dress modestly as not to stir sexual attention? And from what she told us, that was the term for hijab, rather than the headress itself?

I believe, historically, this is around the 7th Century CE?

Of course it is 7th C. CE, that's just known! geez....if u meant i mean to say there's no specific dress code then u've got me all wrong matie, i neva meant that i meant there is, to cover all but the face and hands....I eman if they did it in Mushammad's(saw) time, then I think we should do it now....if MUshammad(saw) told women to wear the veil then then we must now because Muhammad(saw) would know best of what the revelaiton revealed to him meant, would he not? or do u doubt the prophet?

 

[googooloo]

By your logic we can believe what we want, and be right. We can believe what we like but there is only one truth.

You may believe what u want to beleive but there is only once truth. Many religions claim this, but it is not true, and htose who so strongly beleive another religion will tell u the same. But hteir is only one truth, to follow the path of righteousness under the islamic way of life, hte islamic way of righteousness....hong hong ja yo...sejantine satrio....follow the way fo the righteous warrior?knight/soldier...whateva way u translate it to. Those others that claim teh same of other religions have only been led astray by jinn whispering in the ears of those men.

 

[googooloo]

even if 'god' exists, wouldn't it be more likely just to be some supremely intelligent force that somehow triggered creation of the universe

why would it care whether or not you go to church or whether you wear a hat - remember that this 'god' will have created the entire universe of which humans are a fantastically minute part.

the chances of any religion being "correct" are so incredibly mind blowingly small

I think u take a negetive approach to religion, do not close of the mind. I have been their, I have had no religion and been empty inside, when was teh hole closed up? When I found Islam. If u do not understand why religious ppl go to things like church, then u do not understnad faith of religious sense. or faith itself/

 

[Armani]

Don't assume that those who choose not to follow religion were not once religious themselves. It could be that they found reason in scientific evidence where religion could not answer the questions they seek. Maybe you have found something in Islam, but those without religion can be just as happy without it.

 

[googooloo]

See this is the reason im getting confused

It IS compulsory to wear it. But the reasoning behind it varies? Am i right in saying this?

NO, what is being said is that the reason u must wear it is because ALlah(swt) tells u too in the Qur'an. But why ppl choose to wear it may also be for other reasons, and that it is just for removing the prying eyes of men from a womens body is not the only reaon. It also gives women an intellectual appearance. It stops men from focusing of the body image and more on the brain and wisdom of a woman, and therefore also allows men adn women to marry under true love rahter than for sex, though beauty is one fo the 4 reasons to ask for a womans hand in marriage. I mean u do see a womans face. I think women who wear hijab appear more beautiful personally than those who don't. I think they have more nur. Personally I reckon those who choose to wear hijab are more confident than those who dont, nad mroe spiritual ina way, becuase I htink this is mroe difficult to do than a lot of things. I have had wierd ppl i knew without hijab no saying why'd u ocnvert, who have u been hanging out with to cuase htis to happen. I hate that. But that is why I m making my girls wear it when they mroe into high shcool, but I did begin puberty in primary school, so who knows what will happen. inshallah

 

[googooloo]

Don't assume that those who choose not to follow religion were not once religious themselves. It could be that they found reason in scientific evidence where religion could not answer the questions they seek. Maybe you have found something in Islam, but those without religion can be just as happy without it.

I never said htose who didn't have religion were less happy, but if u are u should seek elsewhere to where u are where u aren't happy. But still in Islams eyes, those who don't choose are blind to the truth,a nd no matter how much u'll show someone proof they will not believe. Even worse are ppl who go, yeah if i were to shoose a religion it'd be islam cuase it's the best i reckon out of all the others, and hten they don't...how frustrating, if it is the religion for u then become part of it, those ppl can be so partronising.

 

[googooloo]

Now can we get back onto the topic of Muslim women weraing headscarves! PLZ! If we want a debate ont eh existance of god or whihc is the best religion then someone open up a thread for that.

All women under islam must take up the headscarf, it also shows humiliy in front of god, not just in the mosque, and women that wear it feel closer ot god, it is a constant reminder to mind what u do and to watch ur modesty. If anyone ttried ot ban it in Austrlaia I'd be up in arms, protesting, foreva until ppl stopped talking about it.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

I realise the thread went off on a tangent there - it is easy to do because the topics are linked. But yes, let's try and keep it to the headscarves debate. I realise religious views are related, but discussions about God should probably be kept to another thread.

 

[SabtheLab]

you're right there is only one truth..... who's in the right? well i guess no amount of argument on either part is going to convince the other. you mention people finding reason in science. yes thats true. im a ascientists myself and battled the theism concept myself. im ashamed of this now but i used to be an atheist. to my' logical and rational mind' i believed science was God.

thnk God i grew up though and realised i wasn't thinking laterally enough.

 

[googooloo]

I do not think that ppl who are not muslim and have not read and understnad and believe in the religion can say it is right or worng to wear hijab. Jews were a form of headscarf and believe it or not, though it seems to have died out now, the Christians/Catholics originally had to wear a head covering to church, my mother did, and she went to a chrisitan school back in jamaica(contradictory to what ppl think it is a country that is 80% christian.)

In the end, it is compulsory, and it must be worn at the beginning at puberty, for a woman that begins to menstruate should not be seen without the covering. It is said in hadith, if ppl read more ppl could understnad.

 

[SickOfStudyin!]

Bronwan Bishop's proposal to ban the Hijab (headscarf)

Hi everyone,

What do you think of Bronwan Bishop's proposal to Ban the Muslim woman's headscarf (Hijab) in public schools and universities?

Is the Muslim woman's headscarf really a 'threat' to the "Australian way of life"?
Is it a challenge?
Does it incite "terrorism" and/or "fundamentalism/radicalism" ?

Can we now see the real hypocricy of democracy? Hypocricy of this so-called "freedom of worship"? Can we see now who is really inciting the hatred? And who is calling for terrorizing the other? Do you think that by attacking the Muslim faith, she (bronwan) will help Australia by bringing 'peace'?

My thoughts are:

Muslims came to Australia for many different reasons, Australia welcomed them with open hands, and provided for them the security and freedom, just like any other citizen of Australia.

Muslims were never a threat to the Australians, let alone the woman's headscarf! Why would a woman, covering her head - as a means of worshipping her Lord be viewed as a 'terrorist' and a 'fundamentalist'? Why is this attack ONLY on Islam and not on any other religions? The Buddists have their religious clothing, the nuns even cover their heads! Why is this attack only being made against Muslims and their Islam?

I think, by Australia taking this step - if it did - it is causing a lot of problems and instability within its society. Basically - you want security, leave Muslims alone! Muslims are not attacking Australia, it is Australia who is attacking Muslims. This is just part of the global war on Islam as a whole way of life!

Peace!

 

[breaking]

Peace!

i thought you were a muslim up until you said that.