Muslim People in Australia (5 Viewers)

[katie_tully]

But how do you know Davin? If the system of numbers we used was never devised, would we have ever ended up with Base 10, or computer language?
If so, do you think it is not plausable that we would have come up with a suitable numerical system?

 

[davin]

because there's no good system to do MCLIX times CMLVII. it doesn't incorporate fractions or decimals suitably, nor would it handle exponents well. it doesn't have to be base 10, but it would definitly have to be some sort of base system. The Mayans used base 20, and that worked well for them. Base 6, 8, 15, i don't care, but it would definitly have to be some sort of base.

 

[katie_tully]

But what I'm saying is, if everybody ended up using just the Roman numerical system, is it not impossible that we would have come up with a suitable way to work fractions, decimals and base whatevers?
If you never knew any different, you wouldn't exactly be questioning the practicality.

Take into account, they didn't just use roman numbers. There was such a thing as units. =)

 

[davin]

yes, yes it is impossible.
bases are not a process, there is a system of organisation. in base 10, the first column is 10^0, then 10^1 in the second column from the right, then 10^2 and so on. different bases then it may be powers of 2, or 6, or 20. those all work.
however, Roman numerals lack that entirely. fractions are possible in a very poor fashion, but decimals are not possible.

and the only other method i find quickly used at the same time was the tally system, which is even more of a joke for math than roman numerals

 

[sam04u]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science
You might find this interesting... it is a translation of parts of the koran which explain/predict some of the most complex parts of science.

Including geography;
Astronomy;
Embryology;
Histroy and Archaeology;
Theory that man was made after the universe;
7 Worlds;Heavens
Earth - Solar System - Galaxy - Universe - ??? - ??? - ??? (theres 3 more according to the koran... maybe we have yet to discover them)

That coming from a book that was on earth over 1500 years ago.
(there has never been conflict in science and islam)....

But thats not the point.... i just dont understand why people hate islam... its probably the media... people are so easily influenced... especially if its on t.v.... i dont know why... maybe some people would dispute something they saw on the internet... but if it goes on t.v it MUST be right.... mostly because t.v people fact check EVERYTHING and it usually is right... but you cant fact check racist opinions....

Islam excepts all people... all good people go to heaven... here is a story my mom told me along time ago.... (bare with me)

Once there was a man... he was a criminal. He used to steal and rape and do other things... one day when he was walking in the woods he saw a religious man. The religious man was a bit worried about what the guy was going to do.. when he saw him walk up to him. Then the criminal called out to the religious man and they began having a conversation about life. The criminal asked "Will i go to heaved?" The religious man didnt want to make him angry.. because he knew what might happen... so he pointed to a dead tree and said "If that tree trunk (which was on the floor) could grow roots and become alive again, you will go to heaven".

So the criminal decided to take the tree home. It was large filled with spiders and worms and too cumbersome to hold, So he dragged it home.

Finally he made it home... lifted the dead tree up and planted it....

He waited a few days and nothing happened. So he went back to the religious man and asked him what he should do. The religious man said "You have to wait, and pray daily and follow the koran". Then it might grow.

He continued waiting... then one day.. he heard something... it sounded like a women being raped. So he ran up and thought what he should do... He decided... to stop they guy... he though "i've killed 99 whats 1 more". So he fights the man... they both die.

When they lady went to give flowers to his family she saw that the tree had risen, it had grown.

The old man was baffled...

~The moral is, "Allah is Merciful" anyone with a good heart will enter heaven. That mans actions in his last few weeks had undone his sins during life.~

Being a good muslim doesn't just benefit you... it benefits people around you.

Same with being a good christian... or catholic or buddhist or hindi.....
They all have common things;

Eg:
Sex before marriage = Bad
Something that can harm your body = Bad (Drugs, alcohol)
Infidelity = Bad
Dressing "Slutty" = Bad

Now let me elaborate on the last one. The reason Muslim women wear those large frocks and Hijabs, is for them.

They wear it so they cant be judged. A women who is targetted JUST for her body or JUST for her hair... is unfair.
In those frocks all women look the same... its hard to judge them. They are married for love... (we dont do arranged marriaged.... the girl HAS to want to marry they guy or the sheikh - equivalent to a priest. Will not marry them).

So in that way... only the husband knows what his wifes body looks like... and usually they marry for beauty of face.... and eyes.... (however the hijab has mostly been lost... no one wears them anymore.... it is kind of optional... times have changed...)

My cousins usually just wear tight fitting jeans and tight fitting singlet tops....
My mom has never wore a hijab.
My brothers girlfriend is asian.
We drink alcohol during NYE and CHRISTMAS...

But i wish i was a better muslim... i live like a regular aussie... its not like... WERE IN AUSTRALIA!
We are australian..... islam is a religion... not some weird terrorist cult.
We DO NOT believe in violence.

Except when JIHAD is declared by the head Sheikh.
During Jihad a powerful war-lord carries the mighty sword.. he weilds it and starts a war against all the sinners of the world... and carries the sword to their throat prays and sais "Follow islam or you will be sent to heaven", they then either agree or die.

(For more information read about the Crusades, the war of Sullohodien and the Islamic revolution.)

Jihad hasnt "officially" been declared for over 1300 years. But when it was about... 1/5th of the world embraced islam.

Mostly conversions are done due to curiosity...


Sorry for my rant!

 

[HotShot]

I have to say sam u have put in a very nice manner. well done.

 

[HotShot]

lolercoaster. My mum worked constantly and I was practically raised by my dad during my teens. So somebody pass me the bong.

um, no he is saying the chances of a kid growing up with support / care of his parents to do drugs,smoke (ruin themselves) is lower, than a kid who has one parent, or one parent that is very busy (overseas) etc.

I think this true, statistics definetly show it, psychologists would agree. From persona l experience i find this to be true. Like i know a friend, whose dad is overseas, and so he with lives with this mom here. His mom is very busy working to support her family. This guy i saw him grow up long time really close friend of mine, when he was young he was typical kid, as he grew older , he was more stressed, naturally u kno w a lot of hard work, with no male role model and ur mom working and ebeing stressed , and so he turned slowly into smoking and became addicted - against his will. but he couldnt control it, his mom wasnt around to help him - too busy working. so u can see that having parental support is a valuable asset to ur life, just like having friends. and so when one theses assets are removed ur are disadvantages.

I used to be alone, my dad was working an d my mum was overseas, so basically there was noone at home till about 8pm. so i roamed around the streets and evetually got into the trouble (shoplifting), u know i didnt want to do it, but it happened nothing was there to stop me. BUt my mum came back after a few months and she wasnt working and boy did that make a difference. i was feelin better, happiers, had to something to do and i knew somone was there to help me out.

so essentially ur claims, that u dont need to have a mom at home to live a life that is trouble fear maybe true, but the chances of havin a better life are greater when ur mom is at home taking care of u.

 

[davin]

um, first of all...you talked about how that Islamic science link showed truths that were in a book over 1500 years old....what book were you referring to?

Second, going through those quotes from Qur'an, almost none of those contain anything close to scientific insight. Its vague allusions to branches of science with no definitive claims.
example:

Have WE not made the earth as a bed, And the mountains as pegs?

thats supposedly some big thing into geology, but all it is is a metaphor that doesn't give any insight whatsoever.

 

[Salima]

Davin I'd just like to say that with any text, you must be able ot interpret it correctly.

YOu say, it has metaphor this and metaphor that...but that is because you do not look at it properly. The 1500yr old book the person was peaking of is obviously the Qur'an.

I am not a scholar, and neith is any other muslim or non-muslim person here 9in the matter of islam)...so you must take this inerconsideration. But the scholars know from looking at hadith (what the propphet pbuh has siad) know what each part of the Holy Qur'an means. THis bit you've quoted here is an example. It is talking about part of the make-up of the earth. In another section of the Qur'an it talks about the pegs mountinas...how they are like anchors, holding the earth together. This is discussing how the moutains (just like iceburgs) go deep deep into the ground below. And htis is only a recent discovery. Think back to science class when you learnt about tectonic plates, and the mountians eing forged by these plates movemtn. It's more than this. QUr'an says the moutinas help way down this moving earth...meaning also they knew about the plates. They knew about the planets, the stars, the solar systems, the unvierse, how the earht moves, the moon moving aout it, and the earth about the sun, all in thir own path (each planet I mean). It also speaks of how the sun is like an oil lamop, consuming itself (I've aleady spoken of htis in this thread when we were dicussing science and Qur'an ages before...this thread goes in rounds). Then there is the description of the fetus and the gestation period, about how hail is formed, and clouds, rain, the natural cycles of hte planet...adn about life and death.

I again refer you to my signiture and where I have links ot a muslimforums page where you can ask these questions there of schlorarly people, who will be able to answer such questions better. Muslims are hapyp to answer questions...but you don't want ot answer them if you're not sure because then you may a wrong thing and tarnish allah's message. It is best not to answer on matters you do not know. And don't be shy non-muslims...it's just like muslims coming and speaking in here, being hte minority then...when you go htere you'll be minority, but you won't find harsh slanderous comments flying in your face. They have resources at the muslimvillage home so search there, and if you find what you're looking for then come back and discuss it here. So that we both can have a background in the facts...and not just spitting out dribble and senseless knowledge. We are not mules after all!
But I want ot break away from sciecne for a moment and add something in about hijab and oppressing women in islam, a common misconception. I am saying it now because I will forget the link which I foudn this good example on when it is again discussed (liek everthing else in this thread):

D.Hill said: Total comments: 1

Subject: Re: a Seattle-area bloggers meetup


Regarding your hijab.....why do you bother....seriously it is about as ugly as any garment can be and as oppressive....

And here is the kicker.........it probably isn't even Islamic......the only Quranic injunction I can find refers to women dressing modestly and covering their bosoms!! Unless you have a Sahih Hadith that I am not aware of, your veiling is unnecessary!!

Thanks

Then this lady posts in responce ot what this guy said....I find what Mr. Hill said to be somethign commmonly mentioned in the forums on this topic.~ Posted at September 21, 2003 10:18 PM | Comment Permalink
Maryam said: Total comments: 13

Subject: Re: a Seattle-area bloggers meetup


Nudists unite! Throw off your t-shirts and bras girls, they're oppressive. 'What... what do you mean you don't find a bra oppressive? You've just been brainwashed by the patriarchal enemy. If you knew freedom from your society imposing the male-invented bra, you'd be whipping them off in a flash and then you'd achieve true freedom.

On a more serious note. If Al-Muhajabah has the freedom to choose to wear a niqab, how is that oppressive exactly? Surely the garment has the meaning that *she* gives it, not what you or anyone else gives it. If you impose *your* own meaning on *her* garment isn't that... uh oh... oppressive?


~ Posted at September 22, 2003 08:19 AM | Comment Permalink
Al-Munaqabah said: Total comments: 996

Subject: Re: a Seattle-area bloggers meetup


For those who are genuinely curious about the basis for various types of Islamic dress, I have articles about hijab and niqab.

For those who come only to attack, Maryam's response should be sufficient. The way I choose to dress is not a threat to anyone. The only person who is inconvenienced in any way by it is myself. If I instead dressed like Marilyn Manson or some other punk or goth style, many people would no doubt find it just as bizarre but they would take it for what it is, a personal choice.

In the course of a day, I meet many people dressed in many different styles, some of which I might find bizarre or pointless. There are undoubtedly many people that I meet over the course of a day that have political or religious beliefs that I disagree with. They don't bother me and I don't bother them. That's America today.

I refer you to her very good page on niqab:http://www.muhajabah.com/whyniqab.htm

Thank you..sorry for jumping off topic, but it had ot be said ^_^

 

[Salima]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_science
You might find this interesting... it is a translation of parts of the koran which explain/predict some of the most complex parts of science.

Including geography;
Astronomy;
Embryology;
Histroy and Archaeology;
Theory that man was made after the universe;
7 Worlds;Heavens
Earth - Solar System - Galaxy - Universe - ??? - ??? - ??? (theres 3 more according to the koran... maybe we have yet to discover them)

That coming from a book that was on earth over 1500 years ago.
(there has never been conflict in science and islam)....

But thats not the point.... i just dont understand why people hate islam... its probably the media... people are so easily influenced... especially if its on t.v.... i dont know why... maybe some people would dispute something they saw on the internet... but if it goes on t.v it MUST be right.... mostly because t.v people fact check EVERYTHING and it usually is right... but you cant fact check racist opinions....

Islam excepts all people... all good people go to heaven...

My cousins usually just wear tight fitting jeans and tight fitting singlet tops....
My mom has never wore a hijab.
My brothers girlfriend is asian.
We drink alcohol during NYE and CHRISTMAS...

But i wish i was a better muslim... i live like a regular aussie... its not like... WERE IN AUSTRALIA!
We are australian..... islam is a religion... not some weird terrorist cult.
We DO NOT believe in violence.

Sorry for my rant!

It's true media twists things all the time. I never know what to beleive these days.

It's like on the INsight last week when they were talking about muslis and aussies, and one cartoonist there said that the 'hijab is now in the sydney sceen"..thant's rediculous. It was always there, but just becasue of 9/11 and the terrorist campaign da USA is running people have taken it differently, to represent something else.

When you said: Islam excepts all people... all good people go to heaven... I am sure you mean all good muslim people right! cause it isn't jsut any good person. I used to think this, then I was corrected. Only about 1 in like 100,000 poeple who are muslim and good will go to heaven. It has already been written, but you don't know if that person is you or not, so you try your best. It is never to late to change. TO be good. And who knows what allah (swt) will do on Judgement Day! htere amy be a twist at the end. IN Islam, even if you're a good person, your good deeds are not counted because you haven't chosen the true path adn accepted the truth. It is as simple as that. It might sound unfair, but in turth it's not, this is your reward for absolute undying belief, and especially ever growing iman (faith).

I am sorry ot here that your female family members don't wear hijab or even dress modestly at least...all in due time insha allah eh! I am also surprised to here you drink alcohol. I know it is ocassionaly, but it is still not eprmisable no matter where in the world you are. It is more of a struggle (jihad) if you are round it all the time of course. But allah (swt) rewards for your strength, not only in the afterlife, but your prayers are answered for your strength, endurance, righteousness, and patience. I hope your brother has a islamic wedding otherwise you live in sin, and any children they have or intercourse they have will be coutned as doing so outside of marriage...becuase unless it's a muslim wedding you are not legally bound in islam (not done under the eyes of allah swt). And people don't get huffy puffy bout this cause it's the same for other religions.


Neer mind htis htough...your last comments are ture...islam is a religion, adn a muslim has equal loyalty to islam and australia...to abide by hte lands laws in which you live and to defend the country you live in is also part of islamic law. But you can not defend a country or go off to war with it's troops if you are killing fellow muslims, or if doing so supresses adn oppresses that msulsim countries people. This is why I was also said to see muslims fighting in the american army...if you do not believe in the war, you cannot fight in it, this is the simpel point i am trying ot make. I am happy living in australia. If it were a caliphate that would be better for me and the muslims. But like one guy siad on that same Insight episode, we do not need to demand it in austrlaia becuase the laws of australia do not prohibit us from practising islam...it's not like you force us to eat pork or to drink alchohol and have sex before marriage...(liek they did in Psian to the moors..poor things they even had a pork olice ot make sure there was pork hanging up adn being eaten in the muslims hoses...how sad )

 

[Generator]

Salima, until recently the headscarf and the idea of hijab weren't on the scene - they were clearly in evidence, but they were largely ignored and considered to not be worthy of any real discussion.

But like one guy siad on that same Insight episode, we do not need to demand it in austrlaia becuase the laws of australia do not prohibit us from practising islam...it's not like you force us to eat pork or to drink alchohol and have sex before marriage...

That's a pathetic point of view, Salima. Do you really think that an integral part of Australian/Western society is to engage in sexual acts before one is married and/or in a serious relationship? Do you really think that one must consume alcohol?

For the record, the idea is that people have the freedom to act as consensual adults when it comes to sexual activity. Nobody is required to drink alcohol, too.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yea there's a bit of a difference between social pressures and religious regulations

 

[sam04u]

It's true media twists things all the time. I never know what to beleive these days.

It's like on the INsight last week when they were talking about muslis and aussies, and one cartoonist there said that the 'hijab is now in the sydney sceen"..thant's rediculous. It was always there, but just becasue of 9/11 and the terrorist campaign da USA is running people have taken it differently, to represent something else.

When you said: Islam excepts all people... all good people go to heaven... I am sure you mean all good muslim people right! cause it isn't jsut any good person. I used to think this, then I was corrected. Only about 1 in like 100,000 poeple who are muslim and good will go to heaven. It has already been written, but you don't know if that person is you or not, so you try your best. It is never to late to change. TO be good. And who knows what allah (swt) will do on Judgement Day! htere amy be a twist at the end. IN Islam, even if you're a good person, your good deeds are not counted because you haven't chosen the true path adn accepted the truth. It is as simple as that. It might sound unfair, but in turth it's not, this is your reward for absolute undying belief, and especially ever growing iman (faith).

I am sorry ot here that your female family members don't wear hijab or even dress modestly at least...all in due time insha allah eh! I am also surprised to here you drink alcohol. I know it is ocassionaly, but it is still not eprmisable no matter where in the world you are. It is more of a struggle (jihad) if you are round it all the time of course. But allah (swt) rewards for your strength, not only in the afterlife, but your prayers are answered for your strength, endurance, righteousness, and patience. I hope your brother has a islamic wedding otherwise you live in sin, and any children they have or intercourse they have will be coutned as doing so outside of marriage...becuase unless it's a muslim wedding you are not legally bound in islam (not done under the eyes of allah swt). And people don't get huffy puffy bout this cause it's the same for other religions.


Neer mind htis htough...your last comments are ture...islam is a religion, adn a muslim has equal loyalty to islam and australia...to abide by hte lands laws in which you live and to defend the country you live in is also part of islamic law. But you can not defend a country or go off to war with it's troops if you are killing fellow muslims, or if doing so supresses adn oppresses that msulsim countries people. This is why I was also said to see muslims fighting in the american army...if you do not believe in the war, you cannot fight in it, this is the simpel point i am trying ot make. I am happy living in australia. If it were a caliphate that would be better for me and the muslims. But like one guy siad on that same Insight episode, we do not need to demand it in austrlaia becuase the laws of australia do not prohibit us from practising islam...it's not like you force us to eat pork or to drink alchohol and have sex before marriage...(liek they did in Psian to the moors..poor things they even had a pork olice ot make sure there was pork hanging up adn being eaten in the muslims hoses...how sad )

Salima... you are misinformed....

The Qur'an doesn't ever say 1 out of 10,000 "Muslims" will go to heaven and it's rude for you to even say such a thing. (because you have no evidence) At the end of the day, the men with the MOST faith... have a direct pathway to heaven.
The ones with the "Pure Heart" the ones with "Undoubtable-Faith" and on the last day, "Judgement Day" (Al-Qiyamah)

He will return you (on the Day of Judgment) reverted back to when you were first created. A section guided, and a section will go astray.

Qur'an 7.30

And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment: therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.

Qur'an 43.61 (Jesus Christ is one of the Signs of Al-Qiyamah, So how can it be that only muslims have passage to heaven? It is stated that the Mu'min(believers will)

"..the same way that the returning Savior according to Buddha, Maitreya, is a contraction of Ma Treya (Trigunatmika). The function of the Mahdi is similar to those attributed to the Kalki of the Hindus, the Maitreya of the Buddhists or the Christ King of the Christians."

And on the last days the pure hearted will find islam.

So.. you're wrong... anyone pure hearted will have access to the Heaven

cause on the last day all will be ressurected and all the pure-hearted will find islam.

(its complicated.. but if everyone lives a true life they will go to heaven... pure of heart.. and mind)

 

[Not-That-Bright]

What does it mean to be pure of heart and mind?

 

[sam04u]

What does it mean to be pure of heart and mind?

I think everyone knows what it means... but i dont think much of anyone knows how to do it...

eg; No hate, No envy, No evil thoughts, No evil deeds [Murder, rape, stealing, violence, breaking peoples property, lieing], No dirty things... [Wearing really sleezy outfits, Nudity.., Cheating, Sex Before marriage, Pornographty, Thoughts about sex with someone other then your wife/husband, talking about a womans/mans body eg; "hey bro look at her ass"]

Being ungrateful for what you have, disrespecting your family, not being hospitable to those who need it, not feeling empathetic to those in a worse position, feeling vengeful....

Spending money wastefully, not thinking about others, gambling, doing things that can harm your body, being cruel to the environment or animals.
eg;( you may have heard the term HALAL meat, it means before the animal was killed it was killed painlessly as possible and the animal was prayed on... so it wasnt a vicious act... like they do at kfc... (200 chickens, 20 litres of water, 8000V of electricity)

(most of them are common sense... but who could do it all?)
Even if you cant... you could be forgiven... if you are a good person...

basically it means... be a good person... and not think evil thoughts.. or do evil deeds... and be nice and caring...

(in my opinion more buddhist monks will end up in heaven then "muslims in australia")

lol....

 

[HotShot]

What does it mean to be pure of heart and mind?

lol, i cant have pacemakers and u cant use a calculator or a computer to the thinking for u.
i think thats what it means...

 

[davin]

Salima, firstly... the question was a book over 1500 years old...i'd have assumed that the qur'an was being discussed otherwise, but exactly 1500 years ago would be 1506, over 60 years befoer muhammad was born, so that seemed to rule it out in my mind.

And while i see your reasoning is that it has to be read in context, however, to reinterpret things such that they match scientificallly isn't valid, imo. Its the same as people that try to interpret Nostradomus, and argue for its validity by twisting words to match what we already know. its a cop out to say "well, see, if we interpret this right, it really shows this certain scientific fact" because thats after the claim was first proven scientifically. I mean, I can interpret Star Wars to have been devine because the planet Tatooine, with two suns, predated any serious beliefs in extra-solar planets, and we've now found not just taht, but actually a planet orbiting in a binary star system. However, I think we could agree that that is a stretch.
Like I said, I'll acknowledge that a quote or two seemed fairly descriptive and accurate, but most of those are grasping at straws by trying to say you have to interpret it 'right'.

 

[Zayd]

the website: http://islamyesterday.com/science/ has a video based on a number of "SCIENTISTS" commenting on the Quran, and how the scientific accuracy in the Quran cannot have been from man 1400 years back due to a lack of technology, and admitt that the Quran is the devine word from Allah s.w.t (GOD).

interesting site.........you be the judge

 

[sam04u]

err... anyone could tell you the relevance of those quotes... the year 600... that was before copernicus... before science knew of another world....

the idea of 7 worlds? is proof enough....

and the whole tectonic plates.. the idea of the embryos....


etc, etc;

 

[HotShot]

the website: http://islamyesterday.com/science/ has a video based on a number of "SCIENTISTS" commenting on the Quran, and how the scientific accuracy in the Quran cannot have been from man 1400 years back due to a lack of technology, and admitt that the Quran is the devine word from Allah s.w.t (GOD).

interesting site.........you be the judge

there is no such thing as a lack of technology, just look at taj mahal and the pyramids the great wall china...

lack of technology is an excuse...

man could have done that ages ago u never know.