(NEW) Palestinian state - False Hope? or a major development? (1 Viewer)

[sam04u]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7044914.stm

The US secretary of state has said it is time for a Palestinian state to be founded, and that the US will put its full weight behind such efforts.
Condoleezza Rice said reaching a two-state solution was a priority for her and US President George Bush.

Ms Rice was speaking from the West Bank, where she has been trying to get agreement for a peace summit in the US.

Meanwhile the Israeli PM has hinted he may consider giving up Palestinian districts in Jerusalem in a peace deal.

Ehud Olmert told parliament "legitimate questions" could be asked about the Israeli annexing of outlying Palestinian neighbourhoods in East Jerusalem following the 1967 war.

Palestinians want East Jerusalem as the capital of a future state of Palestine, and the issue is one of the most sensitive and intractable of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

'It is time'

"Frankly it is time for the establishment of a Palestinian state," Ms Rice told reporters in a news conference which she held with the Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas.

She said the US regarded a two-state solution "as absolutely essential for the future, not just of Palestinians and Israelis but also for the Middle East and indeed for American interests".

She said Mr Bush would make finding a resolution a top priority of his time in office, and that she would devote her "last ounce of energy" to the issue.

Ms Rice said she wanted agreement on the peace summit, set to be held in Annapolis, Maryland - but that it would have to be "a serious and substantive conference that will advance the cause of a Palestinian state.

"We frankly have better things to do than invite people to Annapolis for a photo op," said Ms Rice.

The Palestinians have warned that if no tightly-worded text is agreed on which to base talks, they will not attend. The Israelis say they do not believe an agreed text is necessary.

Despite Ms Rice's assertion that the current diplomacy represented "the most serious effort to end this conflict in many, many years", the BBC's Aleem Maqbool in Ramallah cautions that huge differences remain between the two sides.

Ms Rice will now meet other regional leaders. She will need to convince them, too, that a peace conference will be worth turning up for, says our correspondent.

Difficult negotiations

At the same news conference, Mr Abbas said Israeli and Palestinian negotiators were working together.

"We are working on a joint document with the Israeli side. The document will set out the basis of the solutions to the final status issues: Jerusalem, borders, settlements, refugees, security, water and bilateral relations," he said.


The Palestinians want detailed agreement and a timetable for the implementation of solutions to some of the key disputes, while the Israelis want a broader, more general document with no timetable. The disagreement has threatened to derail the conference entirely.

But on Monday, Mr Olmert appeared to suggest he might be open to compromise on one of the thorniest issues - the status of Jerusalem.

He questioned the logic of a decision to include Palestinian areas within the city's expanded boundaries after Israel captured them in the 1967 Middle East war.

"Was it necessary to annex the Shufat refugee camp, al-Sawahra, Walajeh and other villages and state that this is also Jerusalem?" Mr Olmert asked in a speech to the Knesset.

"I must admit, one can ask some legitimate questions on the issue," he told parliament.

I would like to state my opinion on the new development and the U.S led campaign for an independance of Palestine in a few short paragraphs. According to Palestinian sources there is a feeling of optimism and joy in the air as peace talks such as these. Where the occupied territories of 1967, are being so openly recognised as belonging to the Palestinians, and these words have not been uttered since the Oslo agreement, and probably further back in the 1948, U.N partition plan.

However, there is also a feeling of mistrust amongst Palestinians and people in the wider community alike. They feel this will be nothing more than bureaucracy in order to improve the Republicans election campaign. The status quo, painted as promising and hopeful. Perhaps even a temporary solution, like placing a bandage over a flesh wound. Infact there is growing speculation that this is a final measure in order to win credibility by the Bush administration, in order to funnel support for an Israeli led offensive on Iran.

Personally I believe that this is a major development, and I can only imagine the chanting of young Palestinian boys and girls as they gain independance and become recognised as a sovereign state.

I admit hearing Ehud Olmert (a man I still largely despise for his actions in the 2006 Lebanon war, where he authorised excessive force) saying "Was it necessary to annex...", almost brought tears of joy to my eyes. Almost as if this small piece of land which is at the center of so many conflicts, may finally be resolved. Sadly, and I say this with utmost lament to the way things have progressed; The great Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin, never did live to see this major development in modern times.

They both died as martyrs to their cause, which was to live in unity and peace. Even though it was in a two state solution, atleast both were to be sovereign. Sadly, they were both executed for their pressure on Israel, Palestine and the United Nations.

However, none can be blamed for remaining sceptical at both the timing of this development and the signatories or involved parties. The leader of the elected govenment of the Palestinian territories (of the Hamas party), was not invited to attend this conference, which is quite startling. Instead Abbass (The leader of the countries only opposition, and one of the Signatories of the Oslo Accords), is the Palestinian representative.

Which shows that Israel might still be up to its dirty tricks. It supported Hamas when Fatah was in power. Now that Hamas is in power, it's supporting Fatah. Which leads one to question what is their true intention. However, I'm not going to be cynical where it's not needed, infact this is a cause for celebration (and scepticism) for the mean time!

tl;dr! Woot! Free Palestine!

 

[sam04u]

Had Egypt and Jordon not invaded Israel the day after it was declared as a state, they would not have taken Gaza and the West Bank

Had Israel not been declared as a state on Palestinian land, then there would never have even been this conflict in the first place.

Arafat died an old man. He was not executed, unless you believe the conspiracies that state the French poisoned him.

Actually, I believe he was a victim of modern Biological Warfare. But I'd rather not go off on a tangent about Yasser Arafat's death. We'll agree to disagree.

There is a MASSIVE Jewish population in the United States.

2% is hardly a massive population. That's a hyperbole if I ever did see one. (You even capitalised the word massive)

Is leading the push for handing back parts of Israel and accepting the Palestinian sovereignty, likely to promote or demote the Republican cause for the next elections amongst this population group?

Well if you consider that the Republicans literally have no credibility when it comes to the middle east, this could be a final attempt to try and regain some ground. Most U.S Jews vote democrat, that's a known fact. (At most they would lose around a million votes, which is almost insignificant in comparison to the credibility and votes they would gain. This republican policy really has no angle for the lobby to attack at.)

Really, they're relying on lies like "Security" and "Palestine never existed". When that's your last two lines of defence, you can kind of see that if this is successful, the Republicans would be able to gain miles of ground. Infact, it would be almost on par with retreating from Iraqi soil if it was spinned properly.

Do you support Hamas?

I support the decision of the Palestinian people. Israel supported Hamas at one point to destabilise the and decentralise the Fatah party. At the time they made Fatah seem like a dangerous terrorist organisation and Hamas as a hope for Palestinians. Does that sound familiar?

 

[banco55]

I think Rice is trying to patch up her image. There's only a year left of the Bush admin which won't be enough to accomplish anything. Plus it's not like the Palestinians are unified. Is Israel only going to talk to Fatah (who would be in a precarious position without Israeli support)?

 

[jenzipoo]

i dont think there are many people in the world that are anti peace in the middle east.

there are however a large amount of people who are very skeptical at the thought of a two state option as a solution. Me being included. I question the stability and true willingness of the Fatah and especially the Hamas government to handle their own state. dont get me wrong, they would jump at the opportunity to obtain the land and sovereignty but the reasoning behind it is what is in question. can you honestly tell me a) the Palestinian people along with their government would be satisfied with such a deal and walk away from it peacefully and b) making east Jerusalem their capital wont cause increased conflict and problems with the two capitals right next to each other.

Never mind actually reaching this stage of solution acceptance, before then we have to examine the reality of such discussions. when a conference/discussion on peace in the Middle East is being held wouldnt it be necessary for all countries of the region to attend. Now some, previously not attending, are attending on certain conditions that will never be met anyway (like Egypt) and others like Syria and Turkey wont be attending (Turkey because of what's happening in the US in regards to recognising the Armenian Genocide.)
How can there be a middle east peace solution with a quarter of the Middle East not turning up?!

 

[JaredR]

I'm a right wing Zionist however this may be somewhat contradictory as I believe in a two-state solution. I would like to see a Palestinian State live peacefully by the State of Israel in mutual cooperation, but so long as there are those that oppose a State in it's entirity, call for the destruction of an entire people and condone acts of terrorism it will not be so.

The Hamas Charter reads:

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates.
When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further
expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

as well as:

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."

I'm sorry if I don't reflect the same hope as yourself, sam.

 

[sam04u]

But so long as there are those that oppose a State in it's entirity, call for the destruction of an entire people and condone acts of terrorism it will not be so.

Where in the quotes that you supplied did you prove that the Palestinians oppose the State of Israel in its entirety, call for the destruction of an entire people or condone acts of terrorism?

It's perfectly understandable that some Palestinians didn't want a state to be created on Palestinian territory. Israel opposes a Palestinian sovereign state, especially one that meets the requirements of the former Fatah leader Yasser Arafat. One that included East Jerusalem as its capital, a strip of lang connecting Gaza and the West Bank. And sharing only one side of its border with Israel.

Israel has denied this Palestinians state and opposed it. Infact the latest comments from key zionists is that Gaza and the West Bank should always remain as two seperate states. Which is completely unjustifiable, and only going to complicate matters for the Palestinians.

The Hamas Charter reads

Israel isn't doing itself any favours by recognising the Stern (Lehi) Gang as a legitimate member of the Israeli struggle. A group mostly regarded as a terrorist group. The Stern Gang Charter reads:

THE HOMELAND The homeland in the Land of Israel within the borders delineated in the Bible ("To your descendants, I shall give this land, from the River of Egypt to the great Euphrates River." Genesis 15:18) This is the land of the living, where the entire nation shall live in safety.

Bare in mind Israel has dedicated a military ribbon to ex-members of this organisation which had goals such as expansionism, expulsion of Palestinians from their land, and occupation of Palestinian land.

Israel has at one point in time or continues to occupy a part of land from all its neighbours and it has no definate borders, which in itself suggests expansionism.

 

[jenzipoo]

Where in the quotes that you supplied did you prove that the Palestinians oppose the State of Israel in its entirety, call for the destruction of an entire people or condone acts of terrorism? [/quote}

ill do it for him
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

and you want israel to aknowledge the existence of such people and then negotiate with them regarding a two state solution and trust them to govern an impoverished people expecting theyll live peacefully side by side?!

It's perfectly understandable that some Palestinians didn't want a state to be created on Palestinian territory. Israel opposes a Palestinian sovereign state, especially one that meets the requirements of the former Fatah leader Yasser Arafat. One that included East Jerusalem as its capital, a strip of lang connecting Gaza and the West Bank. And sharing only one side of its border with Israel.

first of all israel does not oppose a Palestinian state..they are currently planning a working and safe solution and end to the conflict. emphasis on working and safe. israel wants nothing more than the safety of its people and soldiers. do you think they honestly enjoy sending their sons to war?! HOWEVER as i said a solution that is working and safe is very hard to reach when both sides want very different things. so it is not the fact that israel doesnt want a sovereign palestinian state but rather not under such ridiculous guidelines.
o and while youre mentioning arafat...did you forget that he was offered nearly everything he wanted by ehud barak and got the shock of his life that 'these zionists' actually do want peace and rejected it

Israel has denied this Palestinians state and opposed it. Infact the latest comments from key zionists is that Gaza and the West Bank should always remain as two seperate states. Which is completely unjustifiable, and only going to complicate matters for the Palestinians.

here youre just misconstruing sentences. 'key zionists' - whered you get that?! some propangda website. more like political analysts who believe that at the moment gaza and the west bank should be treated as two separate entities because of the recent events that have caused such a reaction. what can be defined as a civil war broke out there..it was hamas v fatah. how are these comments going to make a complicated situation more complicated..the two parts of land are essentially being governed by two governments, two parties.

Israel isn't doing itself any favours by recognising the Stern (Lehi) Gang as a legitimate member of the Israeli struggle. A group mostly regarded as a terrorist group. The Stern Gang Charter reads:

what does the stern gang have to do with anything?! no one is arguing that they werent resistance fighters looking for a safe haven for jews after thousands of years of persucation peaked by the loss of 6 million of their own in the holocaust.
o and your quote has no relation to your outright pidgeonholing of the group as a terrorist group based on expansionist ideologies

Israel has at one point in time or continues to occupy a part of land from all its neighbours and it has no definate borders, which in itself suggests expansionism.

it has held/holds this land only because of wars started by these very countries...your point?!
get this expansionist notion out of your head..youre going no where with it..all israel and its people want is a safe place to live where they have the right to practice their religion freely and live under democratic rule.

 

[jimmayyy]

havent read all the replies, im sure theres some good stuff in there that ill get around to, but a few things first;

1. bush suddenly for a palestinian state? i already mistrust it, and im not even arab.

2. it seems to me to be a "give palestinian a "state" with one hand, take back lots of land and give it to the jews with the other" sort of deal

3. i agree with the sentiments "free palestine" a great deal, i empathise with the arab cause in this situation, but not to the detriment of the land they clearly have just as much right to as the jews who currently occupy it.

 

[jimmayyy]

ill do it for him
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

and you want israel to aknowledge the existence of such people and then negotiate with them regarding a two state solution and trust them to govern an impoverished people expecting theyll live peacefully side by side?!

yes, i am quite sure that quote speaks for every single palestinian in the middle east region right now. *rolls eyes*

 

[jenzipoo]

Seeing as so many of you mention 'the great' Yasser Arafat and postion him as such a high and all mighty peace loving man, here are a few things he has said:

"Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations. "

"Since we cannot defeat Israel in war; we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel. "

"The victory march will continue until the Palestinian flag flies in Jerusalem and in all of Palestine."

"We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem."

"We will not bend or fail until the blood of every last Jew from the youngest child to the oldest elder is spilt to redeem our land! "

 

[jenzipoo]

yes, i am quite sure that quote speaks for every single palestinian in the middle east region right now. *rolls eyes*

mmm actually it speaks for a majority. they won 76 out of the 132 seats in the chamber
so yea, youre rolling eyes are right their charter doesnt speak for every single palestinian but it does speak for the majority (assuming the election was legitimate) and more importantly a large terrorist organisation that has killed hundreds and maimed thousands for those reasons stated before

 

[MaNiElla]

Seeing as so many of you mention 'the great' Yasser Arafat and postion him as such a high and all mighty peace loving man, here are a few things he has said:

"Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations. "

"Since we cannot defeat Israel in war; we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel. "

"The victory march will continue until the Palestinian flag flies in Jerusalem and in all of Palestine."

"We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem."

"We will not bend or fail until the blood of every last Jew from the youngest child to the oldest elder is spilt to redeem our land! "

Seeing as you mention 'the great' israeli leaders and position them as such a high and all mighty peace loving people, here are a few things they have said:

"The Palestinians would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."

"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle."

'Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.'

'If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force....'

there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.'

'Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them.'


"We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return"

 

[mahnaz khan]

YESS!! Palestinians deserve their own state, after all the turmoil which they have gone through its about time. However i do agree with some of the other comments in that, if george bush is backing this idea he must have an agenda of his own.
I'm sure the palestinians and israelis will live together peacefully side by side if given the chance

PEACE OUT!

 

[sam04u]

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

You're refering to the apartheid Israel, which has no borders and even by its own accord recognises that its capital city is "occupied territory". Which person in their right mind would want a state like that to exist? One which builds fences over other peoples borders and occupies their land.

and you want israel to aknowledge the existence of such people

This has to be the most moronic line of text I have seen in a long time. How can Israel not acknowledge (spelling mistake) the existence of people which definately exist? Are you suggesting the Palestinians shouldn't exist because they disagree with Israel as a stand?

and then negotiate with them regarding a two state solution and trust them to govern an impoverished people expecting theyll live peacefully side by side?!

They already do govern the Palestinian people who are impoverished to the extent they are because the state of Israel exists.

first of all israel does not oppose a Palestinian state

Israel does oppose a Palestinian state of which was agreed in the Oslo accords and the 1948 partition plan, or a a Palestinian state which existed in the mandate of the British Empire prior to Israel mass-migration and 'ethnic cleansing' of Palestine.

israel wants nothing more than the safety of its people and soldiers.

Yeah, on others peoples land. Whos safety they do not care about. Infact, they care about their peoples safety so much, they have to restrict fresh water, aid and electricity to the Palestinian people. Infact it cares so much for its people that the Arab Israelis are not allowed to even walk in certain streets, because those are Jewish only streets.

HOWEVER as i said a solution that is working and safe is very hard to reach when both sides want very different things.

Right, Israel wants land which extends from the Nile to the Euphrates. Palestinians want the right to exist peacefully in a country with East Jerusalem as its capital.

so it is not the fact that israel doesnt want a sovereign palestinian state but rather not under such ridiculous guidelines.

The Palestinian guidelines are not ridiculous. They are simple. The Palestinians should not be seperated by three borders without the human right of "Freedom of Movement", they should have East Jerusalem as their capital (as agreed in the 1948 partition plan and the Oslo accords), and they should have a strip of land connecting both parts of their country. (Gaza Strip and West Bank.)

o and while youre mentioning arafat...did you forget that he was offered nearly everything he wanted

An agreement was formed under Yitzhak Rabin the Oslo accords, unfortunately that leader was murdered and replaced by somebody who did not share his sentiments of a Palestinian state.

because of the recent events that have caused such a reaction. what can be defined as a civil war broke out there..it was hamas v fatah.

Whose fault do you think that is? That the two parties have been put into a permanent power vacuum/pressure cooker? Israel ofcourse, and if you read the comments I made prior you would know exactly why. When Fatah was in power Israel funded and supported Hamas in order to destablise and decentralise the Palestinian people. Then with the death fo the Fatah leader, the country was sent into a power struggle, sort of what is happening now. Israel is now funding Fatah, in order to destablise and decentralise the Hamas party. It's a part of an elaborate scheme to keep the Palestinian people oppresed.

what does the stern gang have to do with anything?!

They, along with the original Zionists, claimed that the Israeli state should extend from the Nile to the Euphrates. And have in modern times been awarded a Ribbon which supports both their actions of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians and their charter which among many things stated that Israel should extend from the Nile to Euphrates. (Even more expansionism.)

get this expansionist notion out of your head..youre going no where with it..all israel and its people want is a safe place to live where they have the right to practice their religion freely and live under democratic rule.

They never had a problem having a safe place to practice their religion and live under the Palestinians. Infact, the first Prime Minister of Israel verifies this in one of the many quotes he made. What do the Palestinians have to do with the suffering of the Jews? Were the Jews not welcomed by the Palestinians after the Spanish Inquisition, after the Expulsions from Europe, and even after the Holocaust?

Why should they be the victims of suffering? That would be almost like Anne Frank and her family attacking those whom they hid with when the Jews were being persecuted in nazi Germany.

You don't have to take my word for it. There are a plethora of scholars who are much more educated on these issues than either of us who can testify to this more eloquently than either of us. The fact of the matter is though, you're wrong in just about everything you said.

 

[nathan71088]

In the past I have tried to argue for Israel. I have tried arguing against the UN identified terrorist acts of groups in Palestine as well. I have even tried defending Israel's military actions. It is now clear to me that these avenues of argument are only effectual for those wishing to DISCUSS. Sadly I am only finding people who wish to TELL. Do not delude yourselves into thinknig you are arguing a righteous cause. You are letting off some steam about something as you shed your teenage angst...or repression thereof. So I think it best to rather dwell on your points other than attempt to bring up facts that can be disproved by you with site refrences from conspiracyweekly.com or books like "The complete Idiot's guide to Humanitarianism".

Just skimming over the arguments against Israel I have picked up a few points:

• Israel is much bigger than the Palestinian people
• Israel has much better capabilities both military, economically and socially
• The terrorist groups in Palestine are a tiny minority.
• The majority of Palestinian people want peace and are helpless against Israel.
• Israel should be deemed a terrorist organisation or at least it's actions should be recognised as crimes against humanity.
• With all this in mind Israel continues to massacre Palestinian people.
• Israel has a peripheral/primary aim (depending on who you are) of 'ethnic cleansing' Palestine (Quoting sam04u)
• Israel has killed thousands before and it really just wants to do that to the rest of the Palestinian people

Is this correct because this is what I gleaned from this thread and previous ones. Simply put: Israel is anti-peace. If they are anti-peace then they must want to 'fight', or at least opress Palestine right?

So Israel has it's boot over Palestine. It wants to stomp. It wants to squash the Palestinians. It can squash the Palestinians....

But why hasn't it?

The 'minority' extremist groups of Palestine conduct bombings. Clearly they would do this larger scale if they could. According to you guys Israel can do large scale murder as well.

But why hasn't it. Maybe, gosh, just maybe it wasnts peace.

 

[jimmayyy]

Seeing as so many of you mention 'the great' Yasser Arafat and postion him as such a high and all mighty peace loving man, here are a few things he has said:

"Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations. "

"Since we cannot defeat Israel in war; we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel. "

"The victory march will continue until the Palestinian flag flies in Jerusalem and in all of Palestine."

"We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem."

"We will not bend or fail until the blood of every last Jew from the youngest child to the oldest elder is spilt to redeem our land! "

i had an entire list of things zionist scum had said along similar lines, but i see you already get pwned by maniella.

EDIT: also, i just dated those quotes and more recently than any of those he said "we renounce all forms of terrorism" and in subsequent sentences agreed to "recognise the right to exist" of the state of isreal. woo you suck.

 

[JaredR]

In the past I have tried to argue for Israel. I have tried arguing against the UN identified terrorist acts of groups in Palestine as well. I have even tried defending Israel's military actions. It is now clear to me that these avenues of argument are only effectual for those wishing to DISCUSS. Sadly I am only finding people who wish to TELL. Do not delude yourselves into thinknig you are arguing a righteous cause. You are letting off some steam about something as you shed your teenage angst...or repression thereof. So I think it best to rather dwell on your points other than attempt to bring up facts that can be disproved by you with site refrences from conspiracyweekly.com or books like "The complete Idiot's guide to Humanitarianism".

You have put this excellently! It makes debating or as you term it discussing incredibly boring when one simply regurgitates nonsense without reason: the Anti-Israel supporters here seem to be good at doing this as they never seem to address matters raised by Israel supporters but rather revert to some other "problem".

They need to open their minds, not just their mouths.

 

[jenzipoo]

You're refering to the apartheid Israel, which has no borders and even by its own accord recognises that its capital city is "occupied territory". Which person in their right mind would want a state like that to exist? One which builds fences over other peoples borders and occupies their land.

'apartheid israel'?? no borders??
dont quote the prime minister as speaking for the country...youll find the vast majority of Israelis, from all sides of the political spectrum, will agree that they will never give back Jerusalem.
o and im that person that wants Israel to exist

They already do govern the Palestinian people who are impoverished to the extent they are because the state of Israel exists.

how the hell is corruption, stealing, mismanagement of funds and radical, terrorist ideologies in anyway considered governing? these people are in desparate need of care in all aspects of life and are severly impoverished.
im sick of people blaming israel for the way in which they live. how the hell is that going to help?! we'll just spend the next decade wasting our time blaming all our hardships on 'zionist opressors'
we need to accept that you and i and all those pro and anti israel will never reach agreement or see eye to eye but what needs to be aknowledged is that whatever happened, whoever caused it is a matter of opinion. each side will bring their 'articulate, well informed scholars' to prove many a point but where is that debate getting anyone. there is still an intifada, a problem and a people stuck in poverty..

Israel does oppose a Palestinian state of which was agreed in the Oslo accords and the 1948 partition plan, or a a Palestinian state which existed in the mandate of the British Empire prior to Israel mass-migration and 'ethnic cleansing' of Palestine.

as i explained, they dont oppose a palestinian state...just one under such conditions!
ethnic cleansing...please look up the defintion of that term before using it so losely

Yeah, on others peoples land. Whos safety they do not care about. Infact, they care about their peoples safety so much, they have to restrict fresh water, aid and electricity to the Palestinian people. Infact it cares so much for its people that the Arab Israelis are not allowed to even walk in certain streets, because those are Jewish only streets.

o please, the israeli army is one of the most moral ones in the world...its just because theyre the most active and watched by the world that one mistake...that is condemned, ends in enquiries and jail terms or dismissals from the army...is blown out of proportion by the media. do you not think the israeli army could have done something long, long ago to the people that 'they do not care about'?!
im dying to see these 'jewish only streets' please please enlighten me

Right, Israel wants land which extends from the Nile to the Euphrates. Palestinians want the right to exist peacefully in a country with East Jerusalem as its capital.

that was the initial ZIonist dream...they were so happy to take anything they could get, at one point considering Uganda or a small part of australia!
and dont give me this b.s that all the palestinians want is their two small parts of l;and with a strip connecting it and east jerusalem...their MODERN leaders dont agree with you...and neither do israeli modern leaders agree with you either

The Palestinian guidelines are not ridiculous. They are simple. The Palestinians should not be seperated by three borders without the human right of "Freedom of Movement", they should have East Jerusalem as their capital (as agreed in the 1948 partition plan and the Oslo accords), and they should have a strip of land connecting both parts of their country. (Gaza Strip and West Bank.)

nice idea...do they have the government responsible enough to run it? look after themselves? keep within their own borders with no cross border attacks etc seeking more land or screaming oppression?

An agreement was formed under Yitzhak Rabin the Oslo accords, unfortunately that leader was murdered and replaced by somebody who did not share his sentiments of a Palestinian state.

im talking about ehud barak and when he offered 98% of what the palestinians requested

They never had a problem having a safe place to practice their religion and live under the Palestinians. Infact, the first Prime Minister of Israel verifies this in one of the many quotes he made. What do the Palestinians have to do with the suffering of the Jews? Were the Jews not welcomed by the Palestinians after the Spanish Inquisition, after the Expulsions from Europe, and even after the Holocaust?

yes they did! as soon as more and more jews fled europe for refuge in what was palestine fighting started as the jews started gaining a majority and the arab natives felt less and less comfortable

Why should they be the victims of suffering? That would be almost like Anne Frank and her family attacking those whom they hid with when the Jews were being persecuted in nazi Germany.

be very very careful of such analogies. very careful.



to those that dont agree/like the quotes i posted i challenge you to find a quote by a palestinian leader who aknowledges israel's right to exist

 

[MaNiElla]

please, the israeli army is one of the most moral ones in the world..

hahahahaha, lol!! you really got me laughing there

 

[jenzipoo]

hahahahaha, lol!! you really got me laughing there

glad you find it funny..but lets be slighty intellectual and back your condescending, meaningless laugh with some discussion/evidence/whatever you want