non-graduate law? (1 Viewer)

[matt#1]

I have recently transferred into a Bachelor of Business (IR + HRM)/ LLB degree after studying 1 year of a Bachelor of Economics....but i'm now considering a transfer to straight non-graduate law.

My reasons for wanting to transfer include that i'm only really interested in a legal career, it will dramatically reduce the duration and subsequent HECS debt incurred as I was only able to get credit for 3 of my units in my current degree (effectively putting me back in my first semester of uni...with just over 4.5 years to go), whereas if I transfer to non-grad law...they will wipe off the full non-law electives part of the degree...reducing it to only 3 years. The difference between the two is that in non-graduate law i will finish at the end of 2008...rather than mid-2010...but I will obviously recieve one less degree.

My only worry in doing this is that it will limit my career prospects. I have, however, heard that Law graduates can gain employment in a broad range of areas outside legal practice including the banking and finance sector and even the human resources (the sole purpose of the B Bus (IR + HRM) degree). Is this true? If so...it kinda makes my think that the Industrial relations and human resource management part of my degree is a waste of time. Any advice would be very much appreciated because the census date is in a few days. Thanks .

 

[xeuyrawp]

I have recently transferred into a Bachelor of Business (IR + HRM)/ LLB degree after studying 1 year of a Bachelor of Economics....but i'm now considering a transfer to straight non-graduate law.

My reasons for wanting to transfer include that i'm only really interested in a legal career, it will dramatically reduce the duration and subsequent HECS debt incurred as I was only able to get credit for 3 of my units in my current degree (effectively putting me back in my first semester of uni...with just over 4.5 years to go), whereas if I transfer to non-grad law...they will wipe off the full non-law electives part of the degree...reducing it to only 3 years. The difference between the two is that in non-graduate law i will finish at the end of 2008...rather than mid-2010...but I will obviously recieve one less degree.

My only worry in doing this is that it will limit my career prospects. I have, however, heard that Law graduates can gain employment in a broad range of areas outside legal practice including the banking and finance sector and even the human resources (the sole purpose of the B Bus (IR + HRM) degree). Is this true? If so...it kinda makes my think that the Industrial relations and human resource management part of my degree is a waste of time. Any advice would be very much appreciated because the census date is in a few days. Thanks .

I believe that the only place that does an undergrad single LLB programme is UTS. That being said, I've heard numerous people say that it's unwise to do a straight LLB as you're only doing a year more of uni study and gain a lot of skills necessary to become proficient in the work place.

Furthermore, I think that a non-LLB component looks good on your resume, for reasons of it showing increased ability and motivation to work.

I really don't understand your whole position in terms of previous degrees and credit- it would probably be better if you were explicit: what you did before, when you transferred, etc.

From what I see, doing your combined degree looks to be only 2 years longer than the single, and if that's the case, I'd stick with it.

 

[xeuyrawp]

The thing is, if you're constantly looking towards something that you want to do career-wise, you'll only prepare yourself for that career.

 

[matt#1]

I believe that the only place that does an undergrad single LLB programme is UTS. That being said, I've heard numerous people say that it's unwise to do a straight LLB as you're only doing a year more of uni study and gain a lot of skills necessary to become proficient in the work place.

Furthermore, I think that a non-LLB component looks good on your resume, for reasons of it showing increased ability and motivation to work.

I really don't understand your whole position in terms of previous degrees and credit- it would probably be better if you were explicit: what you did before, when you transferred, etc.

From what I see, doing your combined degree looks to be only 2 years longer than the single, and if that's the case, I'd stick with it.

you make some valid points there PwarYuex...but i'm still not sure if my second degree is worth it because I read somewhere that Law graduates can enter similar positions to those with a degree in B Business (Industrial relations and HRM)...eg- become an Industrial relations officer or be involved in industrial dispute resolution, etc. What i'm suggesting therefore is that the business part of my degree may not really open up a much greater amount of career options.
However, had my other degree been Psychology or anything else unrelated to law...then maybe I would be losing alot of career options. Also...I'm not really sure that I want to be studying till 2010. I know that the difference between the two degrees is only 1 year...but it is effectively 2 years for me because I can gain more academic credit for subjects completed if I choose to undertake the non-graduate law course. I hope you can make sense of what i'm writing cause i'm reeeally tired...but need this issue sorted out urgently.

 

[ManlyChief]

Furthermore, I think that a non-LLB component looks good on your resume, for reasons of it showing increased ability and motivation to work.

Yes, yes I agree. The other part of the degree really gives an indication as to parts about your cognition that employers are really interested in. I think any student after completing an LLB (wherther alone or combined) really is not competent to practise in any field with any great degree of skill - I think law firms really hire on the 'raw' product they have before them, and mould that product into a fully fledged legal-eagle. In that case, I think a diverse set of skills is important, and I believe you get these from the other degree areas you study

But, hey, that being said, I do hear that the UTS programme is good, if you really, really want to do law straight.

 

[matt#1]

The thing is, if you're constantly looking towards something that you want to do career-wise, you'll only prepare yourself for that career.

thats pretty much my question. Does a law degree only provide you with limited career choices...eg- solicitor, barrister, etc...or would It also enable me to gain employment in many other areas?

I thought that a law degree would offer more career opportunities than most single degrees...so it didn't really matter anyway. Is that not the case?

 

[ManlyChief]

thats pretty much my question. Does a law degree only provide you with limited career choices...eg- solicitor, barrister, etc...or would It also enable me to gain employment in many other areas?

I thought that a law degree would offer more career opportunities than most single degrees...so it didn't really matter anyway. Is that not the case?

In my law seminars there are only ever about 3-5 people who say they want to practise law. Everyone else is generally there because the skills of analysis, reasoning and argument you get through the proper study of law are really employable anywhere written communication and analysis of problems are required.

I think, perhaps, a single law degree holder may indeed be restricted to a more limited number of employment opportunities, but think about how many and varied are the number of companies, govt bodies, public organisations etc etc which simply need to employ lawyers as in-house counsel Employment there as a solicitor alone would be exciting.

 

[santaslayer]

I believe a law degree will equip you with many skills that are offered in various singular degrees. The thing is that I think the further tertiary degree will dictate where you end up.

 

[MiuMiu]

UOW is offering straight law for undergraduates from next year. I should know, Im transferring into it

Ive been dying to do straight law since I started uni last year, and now they're finally offering it. For me who wants nothing more than law and isn't interested in anything else (except floristry which Im doing at tafe!) its a godsend.

EDIT: I should probably add that Im currently enrolled in Arts/Law, and have done all of 3 arts subjects since I started hehe...Im way ahead on law anyway

 

[matt#1]

UOW is offering straight law for undergraduates from next year. I should know, Im transferring into it

Ive been dying to do straight law since I started uni last year, and now they're finally offering it. For me who wants nothing more than law and isn't interested in anything else (except floristry which Im doing at tafe!) its a godsend.

good to see that someone here can find some positives in studying non-graduate law. I still haven't made up my mind...but there is still a few days till the census date. Is it true that If it dosent work out....I could just go back to uni to study a Bachelor of business and get academic credit for the subjects that i've done anyway?

 

[MiuMiu]

yep you'll get credit for the subjects you've studied

 

[santaslayer]

UOW is offering straight law for undergraduates from next year. I should know, Im transferring into it

Ive been dying to do straight law since I started uni last year, and now they're finally offering it. For me who wants nothing more than law and isn't interested in anything else (except floristry which Im doing at tafe!) its a godsend.

EDIT: I should probably add that Im currently enrolled in Arts/Law, and have done all of 3 arts subjects since I started hehe...Im way ahead on law anyway

I never knew that!

 

[matt#1]

Thanks for the advice guys...but I think that I will transfer to straight law. I agree with the notion of 'why study for 4 years to get 1 degree...when you can study for 5 and get 2 degrees'...but as ive said before...my academic credit situation means that the straight law option is 2 years less. I may also have considered staying in my combined degree if I thought that my non-law degree (Bbus (IR + HRM)) would be really useful...but i'm pretty sure that Law graduates can land jobs in human resources and industrial relations areas anyway...

...and even if it dosen't work out...I can always go back and finish my other degree after Law because I will still recieve credit for the subjects that I completed.

 

[BillytheFIsh]

I personally think you've made a wise choice. I know things are different in NSW to QLD, but this is my opinion drawn from my experience; (I'm a final semester law student who works full-time as a barrister's clerk and has experience with a couple of different firms)

[Disclaimer: this is my opinion and you can take it for what it's worth. (read: probably not much) I'm not saying I'm right or that anyone else is wrong, but this is drawn from my time at uni and being involved in the legal profession in Brisbane. Feel free to disagree with me on any or all of the points]

If you just want to practice law, then unless you have a particular passion for an area and do it because of that, a second degree is generally not as advantageous as the time necessary to do it. There are a number of reasons for this.

-First, noone takes the arts component of arts/law seriously. bus/law is much the same if your major is in "international business" or "advertising" or something like that. Econ majors or accounting majors do hold some weight however. There are many other DDs going around, I know - but these are the most common.

-It may only take an extra year to get the second degree, but that year would be better spent working fulltime and getting admitted. You're a much more attractive prospect if you're an admitted solicitor with an LLB and 1 year's fulltime experience than a DD grad.

-Alternatively - if you like it and want to do more study - take the extra year to do your LLM. You then have your degree, a masters and a 50-60k word thesis to your name. (which has hopefully got published somewhere respectable) This is much more impressive than LLB BA.

-Course load - When hiring, people do look at your course loads. They know 3 arts and 2 law subjects a semester is easy compared to 4 or 5 law subjects. I'm not saying it's bad to have done that - but if there are 2 applicants almost tied then someone who's shown the application to do a solid law workload may have the advantage.

-Extra law electives - I can only speak of the case at UQ and QUT, but I'm sure your unis are much the same - if you do a DD, you cut out ~4 law electives (1 full-time semester load) These subjects give you an opportunity to broaden your knowledge in the specific areas which you want to practice. Often they are also the most interesting. By doing straight law, you are actually doing MORE law than in a DD.

As I said - these observations are for people who clearly want to practice law being a solicitor/barrister and are keen to get into the workforce as soon as practicable.

Having said this - following this track won't preclude you from exploring any of the other career avenues you discussed as the knowledge from your second degree is something which can be matched, or even bettered by experience in that field and perhaps some further study in the area.

Of course - if you aren't really concerned about time or you really love your second degree then do it/keep doing it, I'm not detracting from its value in those circumstances, but don't feel forced into the second degree if you have a clear legal ambition, as the time (even if it's only a year) simply may not be worth it for you.

My 2c

 

[ManlyChief]

-First, noone takes the arts component of arts/law seriously.

-Extra law electives - I can only speak of the case at UQ and QUT, but I'm sure your unis are much the same - if you do a DD, you cut out ~4 law electives (1 full-time semester load) These subjects give you an opportunity to broaden your knowledge in the specific areas which you want to practice. Often they are also the most interesting. By doing straight law, you are actually doing MORE law than in a DD.
My 2c

I disagree very strongly with the arts/law claim. I think it is an over-generalistaion, which is not too helpful.

As for the electives, at my uni, however one does an LLB, either combined or solely, one does the same number of compulsory and elective subjects. Hence, the combined law degee is 2 years longer. Therefore, no LLB student does more law than another.

As for the subject loading - combined students do their final 2 years of law straight, just like sole law students. And in any case, I have problems in accepting that law firms would differentiate on that kind of point.

I think: do straight law if you want. It's a personal choice. But if one does it under the impression that combined law is a poorer cousin (career-prospect wise), then I think one is doning it for the wrong reasons.

 

[BillytheFIsh]

Perhaps I should clarify: I'm not saying having done a double degree is in anyway poorer than striaght law. In fact, if you have 2 graduates coming out at the same time then I do think the DD student will have an advantage.

My point was that people shouldn't feel compelled to do a second degree as they think just doing straight law somehow limits their prospects. There is a perception that you have to do a double degree to have any hope which in my opinion is just plain wrong.

I think that's great that you're uni makes DD student do a full complement of law electives. I think it's a real weakness in our course. Electives are fun.

You're 100% spot on - it's a personal choice, people should just do what they want. I just want to let people know that they shouldn't be scared of doing straight law.

 

[matt#1]

I just want to let people know that they shouldn't be scared of doing straight law.

Thanks for that Billy...your posts have been very helpful. I transferred to non-graduate law this morning.

 

[xeuyrawp]

-First, noone takes the arts component of arts/law seriously.

And with that, I stop reading your post.

 

[xeuyrawp]

Well law firms generally just ignore your arts/com marks.

But those degrees are very important for mind widening.

Yes, but there were so many stupid things about what he's saying. Although this particular person wants to go into the legal career, he's assuming that the legal career is the only place to be. Not to mention the fact that the thread creator may not like legal work, or not actually end up in a firm. Not everyone wants to be (let alone can be) souless firm-employed bastards.

He's also making your non-law component to be a waste of time, which, if he thinks that, good luck to him...

Meh, this is a waste of my time.

 

[santaslayer]

hmmm...it's funny how all these new members who [appear] to be very knowledgeable keep popping in, making a few ranodm posts and then leave...

where da hell is bearpooh?