One Nation racist (3 Viewers)

[katie_tully]

Personally I don't believe in saying sorry either, and nor do I believe it is the responsibility of the Howard government to say sorry on behalf of the Australian people.
Sure enough if you feel that you should say sorry, by all means individually you should be able to... But this is like imposing your beliefs on somebody else by saying we're all responsible and we all should.

The Aboriginies, like every other race on earth had the same opportunity to evolve and develop; but 40,000 years on they were exactly the same.
Many, many, many races have been taken over/conquered, so why is this anything new?

In relation to Jesus's question;
When the Canadian government said sorry to the Canadian natives, they were then sued to the point of bunkrupcy. This is because they had admitted to doing something wrong (taking children, land, etc), so the natives had legal grounds which allowed them to sue the government.

I live in an area heavily populated by Aboriginies. And you know what? I don't feel sympathy for many of them at all. If you believe the government does nothing for these people then you are sadly mistaken. They throw it all back in the governments face too.

For example, and I think I've said this before... The government provides housing in Dubbo for quite a large population of ATSI... yet everyweek the government is redistrubiting its and tax payers cash to contractors so that they can fix the flooring which has been ripped up and burnt.
Ambulances will not go to certain parts of Dubbo without a police escort, and police won't go there without atleast 2 patrol cars.
There are specialised job recruitment agencies especially for Aboriginies in Dubbo, there are specialised Aboriginie only medical facilities, councellors...etc... So don't say the government does nothing to help them.

 

[Jesus!]

The Aboriginies, like every other race on earth had the same opportunity to evolve and develop; but 40,000 years on they were exactly the same.
Many, many, many races have been taken over/conquered, so why is this anything new?

So you believe in racial supremacy?

Dont you think you are judging other races by what white people would consider 'developed' and 'advanced'

In relation to Jesus's question;
When the Canadian government said sorry to the Canadian natives, they were then sued to the point of bunkrupcy. This is because they had admitted to doing something wrong (taking children, land, etc), so the natives had legal grounds which allowed them to sue the government.

What country do we live in? Its not Canada.

What are they being sued for? Thats right. You can't. Damages? For what?

How the heck are you going to sue. What for? Negligence?

Are they going to sue John Howard for negligence? Not gonna happen.

We have a high court that has rebutted all types of dodgy ATSI claims. The only things that have gotten through are MABO (Yes ATSI people were here before White people) and Wik (Yes ATSI people may have title to some land)...many other cases where ATSI people were claiming not to be under Australian law and what not were totally rejected.

Saying sorry will make no difference. Saying sorry doesn't mean you admit liability. Sorry can be interpreted in a number of ways.

A person who says sorry for some unfortunate event doesnt become liable for it. When was saying sorry an admission of guilt!?

Sorry would not make a winking of legal difference. John Howard has said he 'deeply regrets' what happened. How come that hasn't resulted in legal action? It virtually means the same thing. Its only sematics.

I live in an area heavily populated by Aboriginies. And you know what? I don't feel sympathy for many of them at all. If you believe the government does nothing for these people then you are sadly mistaken. They throw it all back in the governments face too.

So how did we get the position we are now? Why is the ATSI community in such deep shit?

What happened? What did we do wrong?

For example, and I think I've said this before... The government provides housing in Dubbo for quite a large population of ATSI... yet everyweek the government is redistrubiting its and tax payers cash to contractors so that they can fix the flooring which has been ripped up and burnt.
Ambulances will not go to certain parts of Dubbo without a police escort, and police won't go there without atleast 2 patrol cars.
There are specialised job recruitment agencies especially for Aboriginies in Dubbo, there are specialised Aboriginie only medical facilities, councellors...etc... So don't say the government does nothing to help them.

So - um -what do you want done?

Don't fund them? Give them nothing? Let them die? Give up?

ATSI people need a leader. They don't have an educated leader they have no direction and it is very sad.

 

[PaulST]

You are a fucking idiot

With wisdom and such an intellectual comment like that, I’ve changed my view. You are right.... Well done.

I'm am lost as to your response to what katie_tully said also.

What country do we live in? Its not Canada

No, we aren't in Canada but that doesn't mean that we don’t have legal system that includes avenues for the resolution of civil disputes.

What are they being sued for? Thats right. You can't. Damages? For what?

katie_tully already answered that. They were sued because of the distress, loss if income and everything else that is associated with having your land and children taken away. You mention damages, you are 100% correct, well done!

How the heck are you going to sue. What for? Negligence?

Through the courts. I did Yr12 legal last year, would you like me to give you a full rundown of the process? And again, you'd sue for damages or similar.

Are they going to sue John Howard for negligence? Not gonna happen.

They'll actually sue the Commonwealth of Australia, so basically all of us as we'll be paying for both sides legal representation.

Saying sorry will make no difference. Saying sorry doesn't mean you admit liability.

Err yes it does. If I say sorry for kicking ball through a window, I am admitting that I did it and I was wrong. I’m not going to apologise for sitting here and typing as it is not an offence (or a wrong).

A person who says sorry for some unfortunate event doesnt become liable for it. When was saying sorry an admission of guilt!?

Because if you weren't admitting guilt (that you'd done a wrong) then you'd have nothing to say sorry for…

Sorry would not make a winking of legal difference. John Howard has said he 'deeply regrets' what happened. How come that hasn't resulted in legal action? It virtually means the same thing. Its only sematics.

No it doesn't. Howard has basically said that it is a sad situation, but he's never said that it was his fault and apologised for it. If it did, he'd be admitting a wrong and liable.

Now lets see if you can reply in some form of a sensible way. Maybe you could call me a donkey brain...

 

[katie_tully]

I never knew sorry had any other meaning other than the admission of guilt. "I'm sorry we invaded your country 200+ years ago"... well..I'm not sorry?

Paul answered all your questions in response to me..
I'll just add you contradicted yourself numerous times.

 

[Generator]

Australia = terra nullius
Canada = treaties and warfare (very simplistic, but eh)

You cannot compare the two.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Asquithian good to see ur back to posting in these forums, i'm going to unsw next year... u're right there is alot of christians.

I dunno why John Howard hasn't yet said sorry, maybe it's pride?

Really tho, the smarter aboriginal leaders i've heard have acknowledged that the whole 'Sorry' Campaign is pointless as it really does nothing for the aboriginal people...
The aboriginal people have some real issues that need to be delt with today.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I guess, but with the push for him to actually say the word sorry... if i was in his position i just would of said ' I am sorry for what has happened to your people in the past '.

Just to get it over with..

 

[ohne]

The main problem I have with Pauline is her use of the term "mainstream Australia". It seems a bit hard to define that term to me. She obviously regards this to be a group of people similar to herself ie. white, heterosexual, working/middle class nuclear families in rural/regional and outer-suburban areas.

If you look closely it does become a bit hard to define "mainstream Australia". The reality is we are all different - all individuals and the freedom of the individual in society should be preserved.

 

[Generator]

They need a good leader who can promote mutual obligation.

Within reason, though. Petrol for washing your child's face? It's clear that a leader or two is needed if a community is seeking rewards for carrying out such a basic responsibility.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The liberal party values the individual over the group, acknowledges that different people have different needs etc i think you'd find.
However yes they are kinda nationalist and sometimes do try to promote what is seen by them as 'mainstream' australian values.

 

[katie_tully]

So far everybody who agrees we should say sorry has said that the Government has admitted that they acknowledge the wrong doings towards the ATSI. I think most Australians agree that they are aware of the way they were treated, and if we're all aware why do we still have to say 'sorry'?

I never said the Aboriginies were going to sue the government if they said sorry, I was merely pointing out that when Canada said sorry the government was sued for admitting to having done something wrong towards the natives, thus giving them grounds on which they could sue the government.

The word sorry has only in recent times come to mean more than an admission of guilt. If you go to the average person and ask them what sorry means in just a general context, I wonder what their response would be.

It is rather sad to note though that the oldest culture in the world is slowly slipping into oblivion, the government should do something to make sure it isn't lost.

I think the reason there is such a problem with the ATSI people is because they resent having somebody like John Howard call the shots in relation to their wellfare. Perhaps you're right, if they had a leader who understood how to deal with ATSI issues rather than drop them a lump sum and tell them to fend for themselves, maybe there wouldn't be such problems.

P.S - I sense people think I've got a racist undertone. I'm not racist, I acknowledge that they were treated badly, that there are still problems... I however do not agree that I should say sorry. Nor the government. There are other ways to address the situation. Saying sorry won't do anything, it is just a word. They should say sorry in a different way; ie, finding the core of the problem.
I think we all realise too that, so long as the Liberal Party is in power there will be no 'sorry'...I think we also all realise that they're going to be in power for a long, long time to come.

 

[RIZAL]

So far everybody who agrees we should say sorry has said that the Government has admitted that they acknowledge the wrong doings towards the ATSI. I think most Australians agree that they are aware of the way they were treated, and if we're all aware why do we still have to say 'sorry'?

Isn't that like me giving my brother a snap kick to the head, being ordered by my parents to say sorry, telling my parents that I'm sorry and instead of turning and apologizing, just walking away?

You're trying to say that the mere act of being aware that you are sorry is just as good as the actual act of saying sorry?

this is the crux of the debate.

 

[withoutaface]

Isn't that like me giving my brother a snap kick to the head, being ordered by my parents to say sorry, telling my parents that I'm sorry and instead of turning and apologizing, just walking away?

You're trying to say that the mere act of being aware that you are sorry is just as good as the actual act of saying sorry?

this is the crux of the debate.

No it's like you giving your brother a snap kick to the head and then having your brothers kids order your kids to say sorry to them.

 

[loquasagacious]

Well I'd say its more like your cousins asking you to aplogise because your father snap kicked their father in the head and it left him fucked up for the rest of his life a partial legacy of which he has passed on to his children (your cousins) in the form of an unhealthy up-bringing eg your uncle turned to drink - lots of drink.

As an aside I think its much nicer to be able to talk about things in a more complex manner than having to grossly oversimplify them to basic allegories.

 

[doggogo8]

just a stupid bitch! her policies dont even make any fucking sense....especially when it comes to the national economy...she's a greenhorn.....a very bitchy one

 

[Li0n]

I say assasinate pauline hanson along with ariel shiton

 

[katie_tully]

Isn't that like me giving my brother a snap kick to the head, being ordered by my parents to say sorry, telling my parents that I'm sorry and instead of turning and apologizing, just walking away?

You're trying to say that the mere act of being aware that you are sorry is just as good as the actual act of saying sorry?

this is the crux of the debate.

Possibly not the same. If you kick your brother in the head, and your parents make you apologise.. It is because you are directly responsible for kicking him in the head.

You can't compare kicking your brother in the head and saying sorry to the ATSI. Where as saying sorry to your brother is going to fix the problem (providing you didnt beat his skull in), saying sorry to the ATSI people isn't.
They're asking for more than just saying sorry. If the solution was as simple as saying sorry, it would have been done by now. The fact that there are underlying issues means that saying sorry won't fix that.
Instead of this big deal being made over saying "sorry", they should focus on fixing the rift in equality and equity for the ATSI.

 

[rantman]

What the ATSI need is monetary compensation. Some where in the region of 5-6 billion dollars. I think that would not heal the wounds but at least it would buy a metaphoric bandaid for the pains incurred over the last 200 or so years.

 

[withoutaface]

What the ATSI need is monetary compensation. Some where in the region of 5-6 billion dollars. I think that would not heal the wounds but at least it would buy a metaphoric bandaid for the pains incurred over the last 200 or so years.

5-6 billion dollars would cripple the fucking economy and leave them with nothing to spend the money on because everyone would have quit their jobs due to the huge taxes being introduced to finance such a compensation.

 

[Xayma]

.............

Like the billion we are gaving (ie loan over 40 years) to the tsunami nations?

If the Australian government were to give such money out as compensation where is going to be spent? Australia perhaps? Isnt that good for growth? Good for industry? Good for jobs?

Governments spending some government money isnt all bad (Whereever they spend it).

I know a eco person is gonna come along and tell me that my reasoning is outdated (Well it kinda is. Governments don't boost the economy anymore with their own spending. They just encourage private enterprise to spend here.)

It can be good for growth, but then again ATSI Australians aren't the only ones who live in poor conditions.

If any increase to ATSI Australians was to happen, I would like to see it prioritised to those areas with the most need, rather then a single payment to all ATSI Australians and be towards the development of services rather then payment to them.