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persian wars (1 Viewer)

brunette

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hey i was wondering if someone can help me with the structure of an essay that i hav to do...im totally confused

the question is this

'Assess whether the Spartans or Athenians were more responsible for the Greek victories over the Persians betwenn 490 and 479 BC.'

now i think it was the Athenians (teacher said no right or wrong answer as long as you cansupport your argument) im just wondering how i should structure it

help would be greatly appreciated

xx
 

brunette

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but think about it

marathon: athenians

thermopylae: only 300 spartans (kings bodygaurds ephors wouldnt let rest of army go as it was too far away) majority athenians however spartans gave other soldiers a chance to get away (but even so this is part of their law code-to fight to the death)

salamis: athenians navy only 16 spartans ships...tactics from athenian thermistocles....spartans didnt even want to come...were forced

plateia: cant remember but athenians did something lol



how would you think i could strcuture it...it just go through each battle saying who was responsible then coming up with a conclusion somthing like that?
 

Lundy

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At Plataea, if I'm remembering correctly, the Spartans did a lot more than the Athenians. However looking at the wars overall I think the Athenians were more responsible for victory.

Sparta seemed to be more concerned with it's own affairs most of the time.
 
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randhi

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yeh i agree, especially considering marathon where the spartans didn't come at all and the athenians came out victorious. but thats just one example
 

Lundy

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The spartans did come to marathon...after it had ended. They looked at the dead bodies and congratulated the Athenians then went home :p
 

Magister

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490 Marathon-definitely the Athenians. The Spartans were delayed by an important religious festival (the Carneia) which they had to observe as they were very pious re the gods. They turned up 2-3 days later, but missed all the action!!

The inter-war years: The Athenians were much more active in preparing for a second, and what was, they believed, an inevitably greater invasion. Themistocles was especially instrumental in warning the Athenians and other Greek states about this, even sending to the Delphic Oracle for a prediction. The Spartans were more concerned about defending the Peloponnese and their own alliance system and planned to build a wall across the Isthmus at Corinth. The Athenians pushed for a pan-Hellenic congress to discuss the defence of Greece which resulted in 480 at the Isthmus and resulted in the formation of The Greek League/Hellenic League.

The following is worth considering:
"Although the Greek states of the mainland admired Athens
for her victory at Marathon, they looked for leadership not
to her but to Sparta. Athens had no following and her
neighbours were hostile. Spartra was the head of a great
Alliance: among her followers she counted the neighbours
of Athens-Megara, Aegina and Thebes-and she had a
practical and probably a formal alliance with Athens herself.
Her influence was thus paramount among the Greek states.
At the same time her prestige as a military power and as
leader of a military Alliance stood very high since the crushing
defeat of Argos at Sepeia.....The whole problem of any
organised resistance to the Persians herefore centred on
Sparta." (N.G.L. Hammond "A History of Greece to 322 B.C."
(P. 223)

Athens (sea) and Sparta (land) were made joint commanders of the Greek forces, but Sparta was hegemon (supreme commander)
The first naval battle, at Artemisium, was commanded by the Spartan Eurybiades who had no knowledge or experience of naval warfare. It seems likely that Themistocles really called the shots. A storm and lots of confusion did not result in a clear victory
At Thermopylae, the Spartans under Leonidas and a small contingent of mixed local Greek states held up the Persian advance for 3 days, but were annihilated. This did give some time
however, to the Athenians to evacuate their city and surrounding areas, so the sacrifice was a significant achievement.

The turning point was Salamis, tactically the brainchild of Themistocles and the Athenian naval commanders. The large Ath. navy (some 200 triremes) was supplemented by contingents from other allied states from the mainland and the islands and Asia Minor. It turned the Persian advance back to central Greece. The Spartans and their Peloponnesian allies were massed at the isthmus to defend the narrow land bridge into the Peloponnese.

The final land battle at Plataea was between the remnants of the Persian army (still overwhelmingly large) and a combined hoplite force of Greek allies. Some states did not show up. Athens did not distinguish itself in this battle as their generals quarreled with the Spartans, led by Pausanias, and did not co-operate in the lead-up and early stages of the battle. Their conduct came close to jeopardising the overwhelming success of the battle. The Spartans were outstanding and showed why they were the leading military power in Greece. This victory drove the Persians from Greece.

The final encounter at Mycale, off the coast of Asia Minor where the Greek navy, predominantly Athenian and Ath. led routed the Persians and drove them away from the Ionian cities. The spartans did not participate as immediately after Plataea, they returned to the Peloponnese to secure consolidate their leadership leadership there.

I think one could conclude that both Athenians and Spartans played important roles in different ways in different battles. The more intangible things to consider would be:
*Willingness to defend Greece
*ability to see the bigger picture and put the defence of all
of Greece before the interests of a particular polis or
region
*willingness to put differences and animosities aside for the
greater good
*willingness to co-operate and consult
*initiative in foreseeing future dangers and preparing for it
etc...etc...

Hope this is helpful to you.
Books worth consulting if you can access them:
*Hammond, as quoted qbove.
*W.G. Forrest, "A History of Sparta"
*V. Ehrenberg, "From Solon to Socrates"
*Herodotus, "The Histories"
*P. Bradley, "Ancient Greece; Using Evidence" (common text)
*A.R. Burn, "Persia and the Greeks"
*P. Cartledge, "The Spartans; An Epic History" (very recent
excellent text, great info on the Persian Wars.)

Best wishes ,
Magister
 

brunette

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omg i could kiss you!!!!!

thank you so much you dont understand how much that has helped me!!!!!
 

Arnor

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umm Sparta tok charge of all the ppl in that area... poo i dont member its name... the peloppenese so sparta had 30 000 men, 5 000 men from sparta rest from various city-states in the pelopense, they refused to be controlled by a athenian general and a spartan gemeral took charge n em
 
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classics_chic

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I wouldn't say that one was more responsible than the other: that's a trick question. I reckon you should divide the essay up into the ways in which the Athenians and the Spartans were helpful, and in that way cover the most information. A book I would recommend is Bury and Meiggs "A History of Greece"- it's good year 12/uni material.

Remember that everything said by the historians is up for interpretation (jam in a few sentences about that and, if you fulfil other things, you'll be on your way towards a band 6: without historiography you can't get a band 6), and that the main historians for the time (Herodotos and Thucydides to a lesser degree) were Athenian-lover and Athenian general respectively.
 

The Bograt

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It is worth noting that some ancient sources believe that one battle-hardened Spartan was worth 10 normal troops (Herodotus maybe?) and they were used for instances of immense bravery (like thermopylae) and so would be used on the right hand side of phalanxes, since the shield protected your left side, the right needed to be very strong to stop the phalanx wheeling right cause they didnt want to get hurt.
 

mr_speedy

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you can also say for this answer that they both played a major role. sometimes it was the athenians and sometimes it was the spartans. also say stuff bout the strategy from themistocles and the leadership from sparta.
 

Shimtek

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I dont know about the rest of you but i might make a point of the difference of the two states as sparta was the land power and made its impact on the battlefield while athens was the sea power and used logistics/cunning and good use of their 200 triremes.

As a point id say that athens was definately more responsible because it was the 'willing champion' of the Greek city states. Unlike the Spartans who were brought up to be and blatantly were narrow minded (all they wanted to do was hold the pelleponnesian pass or whatever) while Athens did all within its might including diplomacy to unite and strengthen the Greek states and in the case of battle to play the smart role in commanding against overwhelming odds. The main contribution of Sparta was the delay from their presence in Thermopylae (The famous 300 spartans) and their contribution to the force at platea (5000 spartans with 7 helot slaves each-35000).

Obviously Athens really wanted to keep the Persians out of Greece. They even went to the point of evacuating Athens and keeping their navy/army as part of the allied contingent before the persians came in and razed Athens.
 

Muzza666

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this is kind of tricky as they both contributed different things in different amounts

Themopolyae (480)- 300 spartans 500 thebans 700 thespians(i think)

Artemisiem(480) - spartan led by the athenians stood out as they were led by themistocles and had better ships

Salamis(479)- Still spartan led but Themistocles made them fight by contacting xerxes

Platea (479)- Athens on the left wing led by aristides, Spartans on right wing led by pusanias, Spartans were the ditingused fighers

Mycale(479)- Spartan led by athenians were the best in it

Overall

Spartans- Elected hegemon,weaker navy, less troops but better trained
Athens-Best navy, many troops

If the pass of Thermopoyae was not held by the spartans then the persians would have invaded greece and destroyed any chance of victroy for the greeks

so sparta contribute more
but it really depends on your opinion and how you can back it up
 

keatingeface

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it really doesnt matter wat u would answer; they care on how many quotes/evidence and a balance of primary/secondary is used; argue watever will suit ur evidence; u could even say it was the Persian ineptitude which allowed the greeks to win(although i would personally say it was a combination; sparta had important reputation/land and Athens had important leadership/navy).
man this is an awesome question because it is so broad; they dont specify anythign to talk about


good luck tommorrow all!!!
 

obimoshman1234

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keatingeface said:
it really doesnt matter wat u would answer; they care on how many quotes/evidence and a balance of primary/secondary is used; argue watever will suit ur evidence; u could even say it was the Persian ineptitude which allowed the greeks to win(although i would personally say it was a combination; sparta had important reputation/land and Athens had important leadership/navy).
man this is an awesome question because it is so broad; they dont specify anythign to talk about


good luck tommorrow all!!!

are u fucking kidding me evidence and uotes are meaningless without the knowledge.
 

Salim123

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"asses the reasons for the Persian defeat in the Persian wars" Any help?
 

sharonk868

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hey i was wondering if someone can help me with the structure of an essay that i hav to do...im totally confused

the question is this

'Assess whether the Spartans or Athenians were more responsible for the Greek victories over the Persians betwenn 490 and 479 BC.'

now i think it was the Athenians (teacher said no right or wrong answer as long as you cansupport your argument) im just wondering how i should structure it

help would be greatly appreciated

xx
Thanks you for the post.
Hi guys, Im a newbie. Nice to join this forum.
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