Russia 'goes to war' with Georgia (3 Viewers)

[Starcraftmazter]

Another interesting point to bring up is what was discussed by Putin very recently, that the US orchestrated the war, in order to give a certain candidate in the US Presidential election more political power. He says it is only a theory, but there have been unconfirmed reports of US military personnel in the conflict (this was prior to the US arriving with "aid").

Another interesting thing;

Putin also said that at the time Georgian general Kruashvili declared war on South Ossetia, he was at Beijing watching Olympics together with George Bush. "I told him that we cannot establish contact with Georgian government, but one of the Georgian military chiefs announced that they started a war against S.Ossetia. George [Bush] replied that nobody wants war. We hoped that the American Administration would intervene and stop aggressive actions by Georgian government. Nothing like that happened."

And something else - more eyewitness accounts from South Ossetia
http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=346117&apc_state=henh

A few hours later a massed Georgian assault began on the town. For 14 hours we were fired on without pause by every conceivable type of heavy weaponry, supported by the Georgian airforce. The city was fought over in hand-to-hand fighting and in a night of hellish metallic hail it turned into ruins. The hospital and ambulances were destroyed early on, so there was no way of giving proper medical help to the wounded.

The civilian population sheltered in cellars. Tskhinvali residents know these cellars well from previous experience and everyone ran to the ones they knew they were entitled to. Neighbours huddled together, without having time to bring food, water, medicine or warm clothing.

Generally the safest deep cellars designed for storing wine or winter stores are too small. My family sat in a cellar four metres square for three days and nights with 47 people inside. But even the strongest cellars could not withstand the bombardment and the walls and ceilings shook. People were choked and blinded by dust and soot. There were destroyed vehicles and torn bodies on the street. People brought in bodies from the street into the cellars –and waited for the world to react and condemn what was happening.

Zalina Pukhayeva, 32, and a friend, who preferred not to be named, told me she was in a cellar on Ulitsa Geroyev in a part of town which the Georgian troops captured. But they did not know that from their cellar. Then they heard a shout from outside in Ossetian, “Ma Tarsut, rakhiz ut!” – “Don’t be afraid, come out!”

Two neighbours in the neighbouring cellar gladly heeded the call, said Zalina, and went out. But then she and those with her in the cellar heard shooting. After a while, they heard a tank move on and she crawled out and found her two neighbours, dead in the street.

People counted the time not in days but in hours and minutes. Everyone waited for help from Russia.

I can only imagine, how horrible the lives of South Ossetians were for those several days, what I can't begin to imagine, is what would have happened to them, had Russia not intervened, or of Georgia ever for the opportunity to commit these types of atrocities again.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

I never said the Russians were worse than the Georgians, infact, I'm really quite impressed with how they conducted the war in regards to civillian casualties, which never has been a Russian strongsuit.

And, including South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Russia briefly controlled roughly a third, but pulled out of most of it fairly quickly.

And Saakashvili may not be the most astute politician, nor the most intelligent man, but he's not a dictator.

EDIT:
oh God, 2,000 civilians dead and you're making out like it's the begining of a new Holocaust. I understand 2,000 people dead is a sad event, and that it's deporable, but please, when you put it into perspective...

 

[Starcraftmazter]

You did however say that Russia bears responsibility for this conflict. I cannot see how this is possible...

Russia controlling 1/3 of Georgia may be remotely correct if you consider all of South Ossetia and Abhazia as part of Georgia - which they no longer are, and never will be.

Saakashvili isn't different to a dictator. He rigged the last elections, ordered the military to beat the protestors (of which there were MANY) and took control of all media. If those aren't the actions of a dictator, I would like to know what type of government does this sort of thing.

2,000 civilians dead is a LOT. And it's bad because the USA and EU are actually supporting Georgia and their slaughter of 2,000 civilians. You are making it out as though it's 2 people - as if it bears no relevance, but this is a horrifying atrocity, and the government of Georgia needs to be arrested and brought before the international court of justice for ordering the murders of civilians.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

You did however say that Russia bears responsibility for this conflict. I cannot see how this is possible...

No, I didn't. I said that it deserves partial responsibility, but not as much as Georgia. Unless you're looking at the conflict from a completely pro-Russian point of view, it's clear Russia has done far more than just had it's citizens attacked out of the blue.

Russia controlling 1/3 of Georgia may be remotely correct if you consider all of South Ossetia and Abhazia as part of Georgia - which they no longer are, and never will be.

...yes, but at the time they were nominally part of Georgia AND Russia officially recognised this fact at the time as well.

Saakashvili isn't different to a dictator. He rigged the last elections, ordered the military to beat the protestors (of which there were MANY) and took control of all media. If those aren't the actions of a dictator, I would like to know what type of government does this sort of thing.

Well, ordering the military to beat protesters is a time honoured European and American hallmark. Look at America in the 60's and the civil right's protests and you'll see what I mean. There's a massive question mark over the 2000 US elections, especially in regards to Florida as well. And free press is a relatively modern concept, and the fact of the matter is you'd be surprised to see how many democracies don't have an absolutely free press.

2,000 civilians dead is a LOT. And it's bad because the USA and EU are actually supporting Georgia and their slaughter of 2,000 civilians. You are making it out as though it's 2 people - as if it bears no relevance, but this is a horrifying atrocity, and the government of Georgia needs to be arrested and brought before the international court of justice for ordering the murders of civilians.

It's a lot on a personal level, but it's absolutely nothing on a large scale. The West isn't supporting the Georgians against unarmed civilians, it's supporting them against the Russians. Ignoring some less reputable elements of a nation in order to help them fight a mutual enemy is also another time honoured European and especially American tradition. And even I don't think the Georgian government should all be put up against the wall, though they definitely didn't conduct the best of wars. I don't think they really had a plan for the conflict, beyond, start it, and hope for the West.

 

[Aryanbeauty]

GDP means shit all. People are losing their houses, people are losing jobs, grocery prices are sky-rocketing, people's way of life is getting drastically changed.

GDP means shit when it suits you, simply because Russian GDP is less than the State of California LOL! It will take more than 200 years for Russians to have the level of economy and living standard compareable to Americans.

This is very subjective. The economy of USA is anything but strong. It has a monumental budget deficit, trade deficit, public deficit, etc. USA is having to borrow money from countries like Russia, to keep their economy running.

The basic of capitalist economy depends on the ability to borrow money. We borrow money, turn into profits and pay off the debts. Thats how US economy operated succesfully for the past 200 years while Russians tried and tested alternative methods, failed and crumbled.

Are you completely stupid? China is by far the world's largest producer of food, and Russia imports nothing of value from USA. In fact, USA is the world's largest importer of food - if anyone was to starve, it would be them.

You just exposed your own stupidity. China is the world's largest food producer and importer of two of the world's staple food Wheat and rice. Some cold hard facts for you:

Below are the leading wheat exporters for 2004-5.

1. United States … 31.6 million tonnes (29.9% of wheat exports from top 10 exporting countries)
2. Australia … 18.5 million (17.5%)
3. Canada … 15.1 million (14.3%)
4. France … 14.9 million (14.1%)
5. Argentina … 10 million (9.5%)

Below are the leading wheat Importers in 2004.

1. China … 7.2 million tonnes (14.6% of wheat imports from top 10 importing countries)
2. Japan … 5.5 million (11.2%)
3. Italy … 6.5 million (13.2%)
4. Algeria … 5 million (10.1%)
5. Brazil … 4.8 million (9.7%)

Rice? China is the world's second largest importer of rice after Indonesia as of 2007
http://www.irri.org/science/ricestat/data/may2008/WRS2008-Table10-USDA.pdf

By the way, do you realise that only 3% more people (of the total respective population) live below the poverty line in Russia than USA? Given their population difference, USA actually has significantly more people living in poverty than Russia.

Funny ain't it? How you're such a hypocrite?

Russian Governments poverty list and World banks measure of poverty are entirely different. In Any case, POOR in Russia have an annual income of around $ 500. POOR in USA has an annual income of around $ 11,000 per person:rofl:. Most Russians with their per capita income of just about $ 9000 will be considered dirt poor if measured on American standard of poor.

Yeh, except Russia didn't completely destroy the Georgian military, occupy the entire country, install a puppet government, and maintain troops all over the country for years to come, exploit it's oil resources, set aside "large" sums of money for it's reconstruction, only to have them stolen by a corrupt company *cough Halliburton cough* which relocated it's business to outside of the US to avoid investigations.

Just small, minor differences.

Cause Russia is scared off by Bush warnings, where as America is NOT scared of any Russian intervention.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

No, I didn't. I said that it deserves partial responsibility, but not as much as Georgia. Unless you're looking at the conflict from a completely pro-Russian point of view, it's clear Russia has done far more than just had it's citizens attacked out of the blue.

Could you elaborate on what it is you believe Russia has done to provoke this conflict?

...yes, but at the time they were nominally part of Georgia AND Russia officially recognised this fact at the time as well.

But in retrospect, it's meaningless since Georgia never had control over those regions anyway.

Well, ordering the military to beat protesters is a time honoured European and American hallmark. Look at America in the 60's and the civil right's protests and you'll see what I mean. There's a massive question mark over the 2000 US elections, especially in regards to Florida as well. And free press is a relatively modern concept, and the fact of the matter is you'd be surprised to see how many democracies don't have an absolutely free press.

Comparing the democracy of Georgia to USA is like comparing one demon to another. Honestly - what are you doing? Why not compare it to a democracy such as Switzerland for example?

It's a lot on a personal level, but it's absolutely nothing on a large scale. The West isn't supporting the Georgians against unarmed civilians, it's supporting them against the Russians. Ignoring some less reputable elements of a nation in order to help them fight a mutual enemy is also another time honoured European and especially American tradition.

The problem for me, is that you talk about this as though it's a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

And even I don't think the Georgian government should all be put up against the wall, though they definitely didn't conduct the best of wars. I don't think they really had a plan for the conflict, beyond, start it, and hope for the West.

They had enough of a plan to kill civilians.

GDP means shit when it suits you, simply because Russian GDP is less than the State of California LOL! It will take more than 200 years for Russians to have the level of economy and living standard compareable to Americans.

You are an idiot LOL.

California has a high GDP because California has a massive entertainment industry. What does this matter in terms of industrial production? Nothing. What does this matter in terms of energy control? Nothing. What does this matter in terms of science and technology? Nothing. Has it brought USA economic prosperity? No, the only thing it's resulted in, is the notion that California should break away from USA.

The basic of capitalist economy depends on the ability to borrow money. We borrow money, turn into profits and pay off the debts. Thats how US economy operated succesfully for the past 200 years while Russians tried and tested alternative methods, failed and crumbled.

Wrong. USA creates money out of nothing. The debt is only repaid with more debt, once again - created out of nothing. This is a never-ending exponential process, and the jig will be up soon, when no country will want to lend USA more of their money.

Countries like Russia, refuse to create money from thin air and destroy their economies like USA has done so well. Borrowing in Russia is based on the principle of having money to lend in the first place - and Russia has actually repaid all their debts, while USA's total and cumulative debts have surpassed tens of trillions of dollars - money owned to China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Europe and many other countries.

You just exposed your own stupidity

Well if it isn't the pot calling the kettle back. I am yet to see any proof that China imports significant or any grains from USA. And I am yet to see any proof that Russia imports any significant food from anyone.

Russian Governments poverty list and World banks measure of poverty are entirely different.

That's because the cost of basic goods and services in Russia and USA is entirely different.

Dumbass, learn at least SOMETHING about what you are talking about.

Most Russians with their per capita income of just about $ 9000 will be considered dirt poor if measured on American standard of poor.

Wrong. They would be considered poor if they lived in America.

Cause Russia is scared off by Bush warnings, where as America is NOT scared of any Russian intervention.

Yes, Russia is scared of a country which doesn't have enough troops to even defend it's mainland.

You are abso-fucking-lutely delusional. Go back to primary school.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

Could you elaborate on what it is you believe Russia has done to provoke this conflict?

I already have. In posts on this page. And throughout the thread.

But in retrospect, it's meaningless since Georgia never had control over those regions anyway.

Nominally it did, which is what is counted.

Comparing the democracy of Georgia to USA is like comparing one demon to another. Honestly - what are you doing? Why not compare it to a democracy such as Switzerland for example?

The same Switzerland that gave women the right to vote in the 70's? That progressive one?

The problem for me, is that you talk about this as though it's a perfectly acceptable thing to do.

Look, I'm an amatuer historian. I love history, and most specifically the Second World War, and Germany. When you study the Ostfront you detach from numbers and figures. 2,000 men would die in an hour there.

They had enough of a plan to kill civilians.

No. That's a distinct lack of a plan.


Can people stop entertaining Aryan Beauty?

 

[bigboyjames]

who has watched this? eye opener.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=3jiiwPqKjKk

 

[Starcraftmazter]

I already have. In posts on this page. And throughout the thread.

I must have missed it then. If you could point me in the right page, that would be appreciable.

Nominally it did, which is what is counted.

The implication that Russia at controlled 1/3 of Georgia would imply that Russia was placing Georgia under military occupation, causing problems with the movement of people, being oppressive, moving to take over the country, etc. All of this is however false, so in all effectiveness such claims are meaningless.

The same Switzerland that gave women the right to vote in the 70's? That progressive one?

Did I say you should compare it to Switzerland in the 70s? No, I did not.

Look, I'm an amatuer historian. I love history, and most specifically the Second World War, and Germany. When you study the Ostfront you detach from numbers and figures. 2,000 men would die in an hour there.

And yet this does not justify the murder of 2,000 civilians - in this day and age, which is very different from WW2.

No. That's a distinct lack of a plan.

Even assuming what you are saying is true (and I sincerely hope you don't think that a military operation of that scale - or any - can happen without any plan), what point does this enforce?

One way or another, the military of Georgia has committed war crimes, and hence it must be punished. The fact that countries like USA support Georgia is disgusting - and you cannot simply selectively support one thing but not another. If they support Saakashvili's regime, they must by logic support his actions, one of which is to order the invasion and destruction of an entire city with no military assets - amongst other infrastructure in South Ossetia.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

It seems like a slick, well spoken and well modelled talk that has at most a very slanted view.

 

[Aryanbeauty]

You are an idiot LOL.

California has a high GDP because California has a massive entertainment industry. What does this matter in terms of industrial production? Nothing. What does this matter in terms of energy control? Nothing. What does this matter in terms of science and technology? Nothing. Has it brought USA economic prosperity? No, the only thing it's resulted in, is the notion that California should break away from USA.

Oh really? When did california talked about getting independence from USA? Its not just Califnornia, but also the state of Texas and New York which has equal GDP as Russia. What does engery control has to do with the wealth and income of the people, Russia rich in energy is still dirt POOR compared to America. China, high in industrial production has an income less than 1/10th of the Americans. Accept the fact that your nso called energy superpower Russian economy is less than 1/13th of the Americans

Wrong. USA creates money out of nothing. The debt is only repaid with more debt, once again - created out of nothing. This is a never-ending exponential process, and the jig will be up soon, when no country will want to lend USA more of their money.

With IMF, World Bank and most of world's major banks controlled by USA, it is doubtful that US willever run out of credits, unlike Russia, where people are withdrawing their investments from Russia as we speak. US economy is tested for the past 200 years and is the BEST system the world can produce.

Countries like Russia, refuse to create money from thin air and destroy their economies like USA has done so well. Borrowing in Russia is based on the principle of having money to lend in the first place - and Russia has actually repaid all their debts, while USA's total and cumulative debts have surpassed tens of trillions of dollars - money owned to China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Europe and many other countries.

Wrong again, Russia was near bankruptcy up until 8 years ago. Russia could not borrow money unlike the US because no one wants junk Russian bondas and treasury notes without excessive intrest rate.

Well if it isn't the pot calling the kettle back. I am yet to see any proof that China imports significant or any grains from USA. And I am yet to see any proof that Russia imports any significant food from anyone.

Because I never said Russia import or export food. You are proving your own ignorance time and time again.

That's because the cost of basic goods and services in Russia and USA is entirely different.

Dumbass, learn at least SOMETHING about what you are talking about.



Wrong. They would be considered poor if they lived in America.

Even after taking into account the price of basic goods in Russia, russians have an income equivalent to $ 14,000 per annum which is barely above what we considered dirt POOR in the west.

Yes, Russia is scared of a country which doesn't have enough troops to even defend it's mainland.

You are abso-fucking-lutely delusional. Go back to primary school.

Apperently it is so scared by George Bush word's that it withdrew from Georgia without completing its aim of controlling major Gas pipelines. ha ha. Where as America controlled one of the world's major oil wells and pipelines, ensuring American consumption for years to come.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

I must have missed it then. If you could point me in the right page, that would be appreciable.

Scroll up the page man, or the one beforehand. It's on one of the two.

The implication that Russia at controlled 1/3 of Georgia would imply that Russia was placing Georgia under military occupation, causing problems with the movement of people, being oppressive, moving to take over the country, etc. All of this is however false, so in all effectiveness such claims are meaningless.

That's what it implied to you, maybe. I just stated it at one time occupied a third of the nation. I also said they withdrew. Anything else you got out of it was your own personal thing.

And yet this does not justify the murder of 2,000 civilians - in this day and age, which is very different from WW2.

Nothing does justify it. I'm just saying, you're blowing it out of proportion.

Even assuming what you are saying is true (and I sincerely hope you don't think that a military operation of that scale - or any - can happen without any plan), what point does this enforce?

Let's just analyse this. At the time of the invasion, South Ossetian forces in the capital numbered roughly 6,000, in well dug in emplacements. A few hundred Russians were there too. Now, the initial Georgian invasion force was some 18,000 or so. In order to take the city, I imagine the Georgians planned for a bombardment of the city to rattle the defenders, dislodge the forward positions, and allow the Georgian forces to enter. Fairly simple premise.

Georgia would have known that, if Russia got involved, it would lose. Russia has more soldiers in the military district than the Georgians have in their entire army, not even counting tanks and planes. So Georgia either gambled on the Russians not entering, in which case it would rapidly occupy South Ossetia following the bombardment and things would be fine. In the event, the Georgians occupied most of it before the Russians pushed them out. So, in that sense, the bombardment did it's job. The lightly mechanised and protected South Ossetians suffered.

Now, the side effect of this is that it kills the people of the city. It's collateral damage. The fact that fighting for the city took a decent amount of time meant that more Georgian artillery in the area was firing indiscriminantly on the Russian and Ossetian forces within, even when they had been pushed out. A tad bit malicious, but certainly within the realms on the military world.

One way or another, the military of Georgia has committed war crimes, and hence it must be punished. The fact that countries like USA support Georgia is disgusting - and you cannot simply selectively support one thing but not another. If they support Saakashvili's regime, they must by logic support his actions, one of which is to order the invasion and destruction of an entire city with no military assets - amongst other infrastructure in South Ossetia.

War crimes, in this circumstance, are dodgy at best. Morally reprehensible? Yes. But with the information at hand, I don't see it as a war crime. And yes, when you're the US, you can choose to be entirely selective with such things. Three years after they stopped shipping the Iraqis weapons, they invaded during the First Gulf War.

 

[Aryanbeauty]

And your post regarding Russia not importing anything from the US, I am pretty confident that 99.9999999999% of Russian computers are running on American Intel processor or Apple , vast majority of them using American Microsoft Windows (probably pirated).

And I am sure that two of Russia's only Supercomputers in world's top 100 are built with American Intel processors, by American Hewlett Packard Company.

I am pretty sure that a vast number of medicines consumed by Russians are American product, notably viagra which is badly needed by Russians because of mass erectile dysfunction of Russian men thanks to the world's largest number of chronic alcoholism.

I am pretty sure that a large number of Russia's flag carrier use American Boeing planes because of the proven unreliability of Russian made passenger planes.

Even for its basic products such as Petroleum, Russia cannot drill many of its oil reserves in siberia and offshore thanks to Russian backwardness in technology. Thats why western companies like BP and Exxon etc are begged by Russia to invest in their country and to drill those oil reserves off limits to Russian capability.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

Haha that was a great post.

Russians are chronic alcoholics, substance abusers, with small penises that they can't get up. That's assuming they can even get enough food to get the energy to have sex.

As a result they compensate with tanks and submarines.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

Scroll up the page man, or the one beforehand. It's on one of the two.

So you claim Russia gave out Russian passports, to non-Russian citizens of Georgia? While I'm aware of such claims, I'm unaware of any evidence used to support it.

That's what it implied to you, maybe. I just stated it at one time occupied a third of the nation. I also said they withdrew. Anything else you got out of it was your own personal thing.

Well given the fact that some Russian forces remain in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, they didn't exactly withdraw. They did withdraw from any Georgian territory they may have been on - but that does not constitute 1/3 of the Georgian country, unless you take into account Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which are again, still - to some degree - occupied by the Russian military.

Nothing does justify it. I'm just saying, you're blowing it out of proportion.

If there is some kind of a shooting in any western country killing a dozen or so people, it would be all over the news for a week. 2,000 people die here at the hands of Saakashvili's soldiers, and not a word from Western media.

No, I am not blowing anything out of proportion.

Let's just analyse this. At the time of the invasion, South Ossetian forces in the capital numbered roughly 6,000, in well dug in emplacements. A few hundred Russians were there too. Now, the initial Georgian invasion force was some 18,000 or so. In order to take the city, I imagine the Georgians planned for a bombardment of the city to rattle the defenders, dislodge the forward positions, and allow the Georgian forces to enter. Fairly simple premise.

What do you mean by "Ossetian forces" exactly? Are you suggesting any official military of South Ossetia was inside their capital city? Were they drinking coffee on the cafes? So far as I know, the only sanctioned military of South Ossetia was not in Tskinvali. Most of the military of South Ossetia and Abkhazia actually consists of volunteers, so you could make a claim that every citizen of both republics is a military target - but this is clearly wrong.

Georgia would have known that, if Russia got involved, it would lose. Russia has more soldiers in the military district than the Georgians have in their entire army, not even counting tanks and planes. So Georgia either gambled on the Russians not entering, in which case it would rapidly occupy South Ossetia following the bombardment and things would be fine. In the event, the Georgians occupied most of it before the Russians pushed them out. So, in that sense, the bombardment did it's job. The lightly mechanised and protected South Ossetians suffered.

I am theorising that USA said they would back Georgia, and deter Russia from military action. I will further theorise that the US didn't anticipate such a quick and effective mobilisation of the Russian military, and the almost instantaneous defeat of the Georgian military.

Unless the above is true, it would have been a gamble indeed, and a stupid gamble. Saakashvili would have to be more of a madman then I give him credit for to do something like this on the assumption that Russia will sit by and let it's citizens be murdered.

War crimes, in this circumstance, are dodgy at best. Morally reprehensible? Yes. But with the information at hand, I don't see it as a war crime. And yes, when you're the US, you can choose to be entirely selective with such things. Three years after they stopped shipping the Iraqis weapons, they invaded during the First Gulf War.

We all know that USA has supplied countless states and groups which they now consider rogue or terrorist or have waged war against.

Again, comparing anything to USA to legitimise it or giving US history as justice simply doesn't work, because the US government has always been, at least in the last century and this, the biggest collection of scumbags on the face of the Earth.


These double standards are in fact some of things being argued, and I don't think you can disagree it is not right, unjustifiable, and wrong in every way.



Aryanbeauty, I'd say you're entertaining, but...you're not - you're just sad. I hope you don't genuinely believe the crap you spew. Otherwise, I hope you join the US military and get sent to Iraq.

 

[Bored.Of.Life]

Georgia is going down
unless of course NATO comes running to their rescue
ha ha

 

[Admiral Nelson]

So you claim Russia gave out Russian passports, to non-Russian citizens of Georgia? While I'm aware of such claims, I'm unaware of any evidence used to support it.

It's been widely referenced in the news and BBC reports. So much so, I've never bothered to look it up. It's just one of those facts.

Well given the fact that some Russian forces remain in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, they didn't exactly withdraw. They did withdraw from any Georgian territory they may have been on - but that does not constitute 1/3 of the Georgian country, unless you take into account Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which are again, still - to some degree - occupied by the Russian military.

As both are nominally independent now, it's hardly an occupation but rather a willing garrison. Though, South Ossetia will become part of Russia soon.

What do you mean by "Ossetian forces" exactly? Are you suggesting any official military of South Ossetia was inside their capital city? Were they drinking coffee on the cafes? So far as I know, the only sanctioned military of South Ossetia was not in Tskinvali. Most of the military of South Ossetia and Abkhazia actually consists of volunteers, so you could make a claim that every citizen of both republics is a military target - but this is clearly wrong.

If they're volunteering to bear arms against you, they're a target. No, I'm not making the suggestion that civilians are legitimate targets, that's silly. The South Ossteian armed forces were along the border and quickly pushed back into the capital where they joined with volunteers and Russian peacekeepers and dug into pre-prepared positions. You're not a quasi-independent small breakaway nation without pre-prepared positions within and around your capital. Attacking those forces is legitimate.

I am theorising that USA said they would back Georgia, and deter Russia from military action. I will further theorise that the US didn't anticipate such a quick and effective mobilisation of the Russian military, and the almost instantaneous defeat of the Georgian military.

More likely, the US told Georgia it would help, knowing full well Russia would invade and it couldn't stop it. A resurgent Russia is good for arms contracts, and it gives America a legitimate excuse to keep trying to isolate Russia. There's probably a few more machinations behind the scenes of it all, but I'm only privy to information in the public sphere.

Unless the above is true, it would have been a gamble indeed, and a stupid gamble. Saakashvili would have to be more of a madman then I give him credit for to do something like this on the assumption that Russia will sit by and let it's citizens be murdered.

Ossetians are about as Russian as I am. Well, slightly more than me, but they're a distinct ethnic group. The South Ossetians were given these passports in the 1990's and early 2000's, I believe.

These double standards are in fact some of things being argued, and I don't think you can disagree it is not right, unjustifiable, and wrong in every way.

Doesn't matter if I like it or not. It's the way of the world, and it takes far greater man than I to change it.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

It's been widely referenced in the news and BBC reports. So much so, I've never bothered to look it up. It's just one of those facts.

I have a problem with "one of those facts". Perhaps they saw that many people in South Ossetia have Russian passports...but this is quite legitimate. It is a very well known fact that many Ossetians are citizens of Russia and travel to and from North and South Ossetia, have relatives in both, etc.

As both are nominally independent now, it's hardly an occupation but rather a willing garrison. Though, South Ossetia will become part of Russia soon.

Right so, is there any effective difference to the Russian occupation of Georgia by means of occupying South Ossetia and Abkhazia? I mean, does it make any difference other than on paper?

If they're volunteering to bear arms against you, they're a target. No, I'm not making the suggestion that civilians are legitimate targets, that's silly. The South Ossteian armed forces were along the border and quickly pushed back into the capital where they joined with volunteers and Russian peacekeepers and dug into pre-prepared positions. You're not a quasi-independent small breakaway nation without pre-prepared positions within and around your capital. Attacking those forces is legitimate.

This is a theory, is it not? Punishing the civilian population for the actions of it's military is banned under the Geneva convention I believe.

Ossetians are about as Russian as I am. Well, slightly more than me, but they're a distinct ethnic group. The South Ossetians were given these passports in the 1990's and early 2000's, I believe.

You are forgetting that part of Ossetia is in Russia? They look like Russians, they talk the same language - I'm not sure what other difference there could be which would make them distinctly non-Russian.

 

[Admiral Nelson]

I have a problem with "one of those facts". Perhaps they saw that many people in South Ossetia have Russian passports...but this is quite legitimate. It is a very well known fact that many Ossetians are citizens of Russia and travel to and from North and South Ossetia, have relatives in both, etc.

The Russians handed out 45,000 passports after offering all 70,000 South Ossetians citizenship. It's not a matter of a few foreign nationals here.

"More than half of South Ossetia's 70,000 citizens are said to have taken up Moscow's offer of Russian citizenship. Russia says its actions were designed to protect those citizens."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549736.stm

Right so, is there any effective difference to the Russian occupation of Georgia by means of occupying South Ossetia and Abkhazia? I mean, does it make any difference other than on paper?

It did beforehand, but now that both republics are legally recognised entities, even if only by Russia, it changes the dynamic somewhat. This isn't my area of knowledge so I'll back out of anything further in this regard.

This is a theory, is it not? Punishing the civilian population for the actions of it's military is banned under the Geneva convention I believe.

It's the series of events as I understand it. The actual specifics on the military level are blurry at best. And yes, collective punishment is banned, but collateral damage is a very different thing.

You are forgetting that part of Ossetia is in Russia? They look like Russians, they talk the same language - I'm not sure what other difference there could be which would make them distinctly non-Russian.

Okay, here you're out of your depth. Yes, I know that North Ossetia is Russian, but beyond that, Ossetians are very different. Russians are Slavic and speak Russian, a Slavic language. Ossetians are Indo-Iranian and speak Ossetic, a North Iranian language. So the fact the speak an entirely different language from a different branch and they're ethnically different from Russians doesn't distinguish them enough for your liking?

Though you are correct in that many take Russian as a second language.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

The Russians handed out 45,000 passports after offering all 70,000 South Ossetians citizenship. It's not a matter of a few foreign nationals here.

"More than half of South Ossetia's 70,000 citizens are said to have taken up Moscow's offer of Russian citizenship. Russia says its actions were designed to protect those citizens."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7549736.stm

This is definately different to Russia secretly handing out passports to later claim a CB or such an action. If they publicly offered citizenship to the people living there, and they accepted, I'm not sure what the problem is - specifically, given this happened a while back.

Seems to me many imply this all happened in a short period of time, whereas the Russians secretly distributed fake Russian passports, to claim it's citizens live there, hence they should invade to prevent Georgia from harming them, etc - which is a twisted version of the truth.

Okay, here you're out of your depth. Yes, I know that North Ossetia is Russian, but beyond that, Ossetians are very different. Russians are Slavic and speak Russian, a Slavic language. Ossetians are Indo-Iranian and speak Ossetic, a North Iranian language. So the fact the speak an entirely different language from a different branch and they're ethnically different from Russians doesn't distinguish them enough for your liking?

It is a true fact that Russia has many ethnic groups within it. Probably more than the majority of countries on Earth, yet these people all identify as Russian, including the Ossetians of North Ossetia. They are quite happy to be a Russian republic, and have never staged campaigns of independence.

I am sure that many of them use Russian on a day-to-day basis, since it is the only language I have ever heard Ossetians speak, whether it be on Eastern or Western media.