The Abortion Debate... (2 Viewers)

[Senator04]

Look I'm sorry I'm not allowed to swear in this forum because I can't tell you how much I hate idiotic right wing conservative Coalition members who think they can take us back to good ol' 1950's Australia, where everybody did what the church told them too. I'm sorry but i couldn't give a rats backside if Tony Abbot is a devoted Catholic and doesn't believe in abortion. He has no right to be playing holier than thou and attempting to put this back on the agenda. As far as I'm concerned the views of the church should have nothing to do with government policy. We are a bloody SECULAR country. This after just having harked on about how good it was to remove the Taliban.

I saw this on the 7:30 Report last night and I'm disgusted. The Catholic Church says that abortion is wrong under all circumstances even RAPE. I can't even think about having devoted members of that faith using their beliefs to form policy for this country. This is a disgrace, in a society where sex has become more free, this is one of the most shocking proposals I've heard. If it were to pass, I totally agree with the 7:30 report it will return to the backyard measures used in the 1950's when it was illegal. Women have the right to do as they want with their bodies, sure the fetus might going to be human but the woman already is human and therefore her welfare and choice must be paramount.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

she did, she was raped but still felt regret.

as for the welfare... that's a lame excuse, living in australia we give you enough money to look after your child, it just might require some sacrafice on the part of you...
If you believe you cannot make sacrafices... then perhaps you should have the abortion... but it's still killing. I think these abortions should be allowed.. but it's definately sad that people would value their own well-being that much over a child.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

she did, she was raped but still felt regret.

as for the welfare... that's a lame excuse, living in australia we give you enough money to look after your child, it just might require some sacrafice on the part of you...
If you believe you cannot make sacrafices... then perhaps you should have the abortion... but it's still killing. I think these abortions should be allowed.. but it's definately sad that people would value their own well-being that much over a child.

but do u think its murder?

the child is theirs...at 0 weeks its cells divide.. at 12 weeks it has a heartbeat.. and develops human features.. ive seen abortions at 20ish weeks.. they make u squirm.. limbs are severed and decapitated..

but
welfare in aust is just adequate.. but if the mother lives with the child there are grave psychosocial consequences.. with the mother caring for a child that resembles HER rapist.. the violater of her body.. its almost a tragedy.. a reminder for the rest of her life.. the rapist wins.. he has got her to fear him forever.. then not being allowed to decide over her own body.. once again.. she is controlled by others..

adoption is an option.. but the child finds out that they are disowned and father was a criminal .. this can also be quite grave.. for the child..

i think its a necessary option.. but the mothers need that informed decision.. and to say that they are not considering the childs wellbeing.. isnt right either.. and its not about the money often.. its fear .. wat if the mother has psychosis oneday and kills the child of her rapist.. wat would u think then?

if she regrets aborting the child.. there are probably other underlying issues.. because most sex assualt victims dont.. they live in fear..and some undergo years to lifetime of counselling..

 

[Not-That-Bright]

adoption is an option.. but the child finds out that they are disowned and father was a criminal .. this can also be quite grave.. for the child..

Worse than having a metal spinning thing cut u to pieces then pull you out?

i think its a necessary option.. but the mothers need that informed decision.. and to say that they are not considering the childs wellbeing.. isnt right either.. and its not about the money often.. its fear

I agree it is a necessary option.. and mothers need to be informed... but some people are just generally stupid.

From what i've heard most sexual assault victims do regret aborting the child... but anyway..

 

[Rorix]

it is sorta funny that they believe in the death penalty and a right to life....
bah... but hypocrisy is part of the style

Idiot.
Philosophy of death penalty: This person is unable to be rehabilitated by the jail system.

How does that contradict with abortion?

science doesnt realli define autonomy and self-conscienceness until about 2-3 months neonatal.. which would be a person....

So, hypothetically, if we had a person which due to disability was not autonomous, it's not murder to kill them?

it only says it has the potential to be at contraception.. but its still only a few cells.. and spontaneous abortions caused by gene defects and other natural accidents are highest at 0-8 weeks..

So, because people die naturally, it's OK for me to kill them?

 

[Monkey Butler]

Philosophy of pro-life: Life is sacred, nobody has the right to take it away.
Philosophy of death penalty: We have the right to take away life because we know what's right.
That's hypocrisy.

Personally, I think abortion is a terrible thing, but it's necessary. I wouldn't think any less of a woman who had an abortion, but it's still a tragedy. But to take away the choice of a woman to terminate a foetus/embryo is just wrong - there are so many factors that need to be considered when giving birth/raising a child that it's irresponsible to just make a blanket judgement about all abortions.

However, you do have to take into consideration the idea of people just being stupid and having unprotected sex, and then deciding to abort, because whether or not you consider life to start at conception (not contraception, whoever said that ), there is a life growing inside of the woman, and to just destroy that because you chose not to have safe sex and you don't really want a kid running around, is, I reckon, disgusting.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

yea the question is however.... is it disgusting enough that we should just make them live with the pain.. or stop them?
The problem really is.. you can't test people to find out their intentions etc...

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

So, hypothetically, if we had a person which due to disability was not autonomous, it's not murder to kill them?
So, because people die naturally, it's OK for me to kill them?

i was referring to science not having a definition.. if it were MY decision.. accidents wouldnt happen.. ppl would not die.. but its not up to me, is it?..
ppl do die.. im just saying that if a tropocyte is implanted it wont always live.. so defining life at contraception isnt so black-and-white

I agree it is a necessary option.. and mothers need to be informed... but some people are just generally stupid.

From what i've heard most sexual assault victims do regret aborting the child... but anyway..

the decision has to be made over about 4-10 weeks... so u got 3 months.. after finding to decide weather u want to have a permantent reminder of the rape...usualli the reason that they hav short amounts of time is that they were too ashamed to report the rape.. resulting in implantation
if they report it straight after.. they are given the morning after pill.. to make sure tat implantation doesnt happen..
i thinks it the fact that making a decision of the rest of ure life of a traumatic experience.. usualli they want to erase it.. well thats the impression i get from the sex assault victims the uni got me to interview.. :S

 

[Rorix]

Philosophy of death penalty: We have the right to take away life because we know what's right.

No, that's not the philosophy of the death penalty. Hence, your conclusion that it's hypocritical is wrong.

i was referring to science not having a definition

It does have a definition, I believe, that life begins at conception. You just don't seem to like that definition.

im just saying that if a tropocyte is implanted it wont always live.. so defining life at contraception isnt so black-and-white

It won't always live, sure, but it was ALIVE. Well, I think so, I don't know what a tropocyte is.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

wat do u mean bout being alive tho?

because to count someone as dead we say "no heartbeat and brain non-functional" here the heart isnt formed yet? and neither is the brain?

i dunno wat it means to be alive..and i dun claim to kno either.. this is wat i come across at the hospital..

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

Worse than having a metal spinning thing cut u to pieces then pull you out?

emotional pain can be worse than physical pain. so i wouldnt kno.. have u ever talked to an aborted fetus? or are u assuming?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

They look human, they are human.
I don't have a problem with abortion in alot of situations, however I believe strongly that it is murder.. they shouldn't hide that, don't gloss over it.
Like on packs of smokes that claim 'smoking kills', they should point out in any information given to someone before their abortion that they ARE killing life, they are killing a person for their own personal reasons. Do they understand this and still want to go thru? if so.. then do it.

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

human features are 8-12 weeks..
so before that?

on a separate note:
smoking around a pregnant woman should be a crime.. cos the fuckers that smoke near pregnant women can cause the placenta to separate from the uterus.. and if ure a mother stupid enuf to be there.. why not get the person to kick u in the gut?..

smoking pregnant mothers should be charged for child endangerment . and it can cause a miscarriage.. or disability.. ..

 

[MoonlightSonata]

The line must be drawn somewhere - the question is why do you draw it where you believe. Is using condoms murder? How about when the sperm hits the egg? When cell division first starts? It's pretty useless to say something has the "potential" to be a human because obviously sperm have the potential to be humans and then gaols would be full of horny teenage boys: Crimes (Ejaculation Murder Amendment) Act 2004 (NSW).

It's very hard to judge at what point something becomes human

 

[thejosiekiller]

this is my opinion on abortion:

the right to have an abortion is murder - i do think an unborn child is alive, but being unborn does create issues, are they then sub-human or something? i dont know

the right of the mother to terminate an unborn child should be there own decision, and thus should be prepared to face the consequences

all involved should have all the information provided on a compulsory basis and understand it- being aware of thier options in then event if they decide to have an abortion or not.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

It definately is.

 

[Ziff]

The line must be drawn somewhere - the question is why do you draw it where you believe. Is using condoms murder? How about when the sperm hits the egg? When cell division first starts? It's pretty useless to say something has the "potential" to be a human because obviously sperm have the potential to be humans and then gaols would be full of horny teenage boys: Crimes (Ejaculation Murder Amendment) Act 2004 (NSW).

It's very hard to judge at what point something becomes human

I heard that they're also considering the Crimes (Ovum Negligence Amendment) Act 2004 (NSW).

 

[underthebridge]

hmmm i wonder if a pregnant woman has a fall and has a miscarriage as a result, has she perhaps committed mansloughter? Not looking for an argument, just giving somethin to think about. Also, something thats is defined as living is something that grows. With that defiintion, life begins at conception. However, on that note, an animal also grows and is alive, as does a plant and bacteria and everything else in the five kingdoms.

 

[loquasagacious]

Looks like this board has a similar position to the states (overall, poll wise not politically), that is anti-abortion eg thinking it is murder however pro-choice eg still wanting to leave it up to the mother.

Personally I think it is the mothers choice and that in the vast majority of abortions it does not constitute murder in any way as the foetus is not human. The decision should be made by the mother after being consulting medical professionals. In third trimester, when it could be concieved as murder, it should only be done in cases where the mother will die if it is carried to term.

On a lighter note http://www.maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=regressive

 

[thejosiekiller]

no im sorry i do think its murder- u can continue the debate on whether it is alive, but personally i think it is alive and growing- the mother aborts - she intends to ends the unborn child's life.