The moderates and the conservatives - the state of the NSW Liberal Party (3 Viewers)

[transcendent]

I want more evidence before I start generalising. Justin is a member of the Liberal Club in USyd and I don't think he is particularly racist, he just enjoys a good troll now and then. But this is the Melbourne based Liberal Club so so far it's heresay. I haven't noticed from what little news I hear these days of any racism accusations prevalent in the State Opposition. I've heard reports of Right shifting but as a layman I'm not able to distinguish individual members based on their stances.

 

[transcendent]

When I hear conservative I don't have those images of such bad behaviour. But it may be the case in university where the majority are supposedly of the Left and anything right may be a generalisation of that sort of behaviour. But it was somewhat... of a coincidence that the Liberal Club at O-Week played 'God Save The Queen' at their stall. Still I maintain that the Liberal Club at USyd is not that far gone as in Melbourne. They just focused on a extreme example.

 

[transcendent]

So if I joined the Liberal Club as a means of moderating their views is it possible to curb that sort of one-mindedness? Or are there no ethnics present in their party?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

So if I joined the Liberal Club as a means of moderating their views is it possible to curb that sort of one-mindedness? Or are there no ethnics present in their party?

No, there is no club for people like you scum to join.

 

[transcendent]

There's always Unity Party. I could start a society for them at USyd. I'm pretty sure there are a few 'Scum' aka 'Asian' politicians. But yes, I wouldn't trust them either. Strathfield anyone?

 

[withoutaface]

The SULC's social policy is fairly neutral, with policies against conscription, internet censorship, and only a handful of conservative ones (anti injecting rooms is the only one I can think of right now). We're not nazis, fascists, sexists, homophobes or racists, and in fact I find such labels coming from the AA supporting left to be hypocrisy of the highest order.

 

[gnrlies]

The liberal party is a broad church which has a place for people of many different beliefs.

It is a conservative party, so it is true that there is no point joining if your main agenda is promoting gay marriage or saving the rainforest - as alex hawke says, the liberal party is not for you. But the problem exists is where people join the liberal party for a core reason (i.e. economic policy, individualism etc) and dont share the same social policy beliefs of people like Clarke. These people who join for non social policy reasons may be substatially more moderate than Clarke and the right wing faction.

Whilst there would be no place for these people to come in and change the entire focus of the Liberal party - they should still be entitled to keep the far right in check. If they didn't do that, as someone said earlier, the liberal party wouldn't be where it is today. As Robert Menzies once said, the Liberal Party is for all australians, not just the people who vote for them, but those who vote against them. Unfortunately some of these Far Right beliefs dont hold check with the australian population. Some do, but many dont.

i guess when clarke stitches up another branch, its taking away that voice. But in all respect to clarke, he's doing nothing which wasn't done by the groupers.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The liberal party is a broad church which has a place for people of many different beliefs.

But I'm atheist.

It is a conservative party, so it is true that there is no point joining if your main agenda is promoting gay marriage or saving the rainforest

What? So environmentalism is pushed to the margins of liberal policy? That's just brilliant. As for gay marriage, I believe there are those in the liberal party that are for civil unions... I mean supporting gay marriage isn't exactly the most (small l) liberal of stances you can take. It's rather moderate.

But the problem exists is where people join the liberal party for a core reason (i.e. economic policy, individualism etc) and dont share the same social policy beliefs of people like Clarke.

The problem exists because of people like Clarke

Whilst there would be no place for these people to come in and change the entire focus of the Liberal party - they should still be entitled to keep the far right in check.

Why is there no place for them to change the focus of the liberal party? Conservative parties always move forward socially, however slowly.

they should still be entitled to keep the far right in check. If they didn't do that, as someone said earlier, the liberal party wouldn't be where it is today.

It shouldn't be about keeping anyone 'in check'. A political party should be a place where people with at least some similar views can come together and argue their differences, have a vote, accept the party's decision, but continue to be a voice for your point-of-view if it's what you feel is right.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I don't see the liberal party staying the way it is currently in the future, I think we'll see a party when we're 50 that we'd now call 'libertarian' more than conservative.

 

[gnrlies]

But I'm atheist.

By broadchurch we dont mean of the religious variety, we mean in terms of opinions. Or are you just being sarcastic.....

What? So environmentalism is pushed to the margins of liberal policy? That's just brilliant. As for gay marriage, I believe there are those in the liberal party that are for civil unions... I mean supporting gay marriage isn't exactly the most (small l) liberal of stances you can take. It's rather moderate.

No, these issues will have varying opinions within the liberal party. Some will be extremely opposed to anything to do with homosexuality, whereas others may support gay marriage. As said earlier, its a broad church. The only thing is that why on earth would you join a party which does not reflect your views.

Why is there no place for them to change the focus of the liberal party? Conservative parties always move forward socially, however slowly.

Of course social policy is going to gradually move forward. The point I was trying to make is that the Liberal party fills a very important gap in the political landscape. They are the major conservative party. For a bunch of left wing people to take over that party would not only destroy their electoral chances (as who now is going to vote for them), but it would no longer represent the views of conservative australians.

It shouldn't be about keeping anyone 'in check'. A political party should be a place where people with at least some similar views can come together and argue their differences, have a vote, accept the party's decision, but continue to be a voice for your point-of-view if it's what you feel is right.

No its not about playing nanny to those on the right, its about keeping them in check so that the policies of the party are not merely determined by those on the right. It is about democracy as you suggest. The problem howevor is many branches (and therefore positions on state executive etc etc) get stacked and the views of the broader party do not get taken into account.

 

[transcendent]

Oh, for fuck's sake. I would argue the majority of Libs I've met are Libs because of economic reasons (myself included), therefore more libertarian/classical liberal. Most of the ones I associate with are economically right, yet somewhat more relenting when it comes to social policy due to their beliefs in individual liberty/freedom of the individual. A number have socially conservative tendencies, but aside from a few isolated individuals, there's nowhere near the extremist tendencies described in this transcript. Chalk it up to the ABC's bias, yet again.

As opposed to Channel Nine's bias as being the Government's lapdog? The ABC provides criticism of the current government and addresses issues that are of concern. The ABC and SBS are the only things keeping the bastards honest when no one else will. The regularly debate the merits of various issues with guests speakers from both sides of the debate. Am I of the opinion that you want nothing more than FOX News clones in an Australian format?

 

[frog12986]

At least the ALP and its supporters have not exploited the issues conveyed by the four corners program; being a party of specialist branch stacking and factional warfare themselves...

 

[wheredanton]

Oh, for fuck's sake. I would argue the majority of Libs I've met are Libs because of economic reasons (myself included), therefore more libertarian/classical liberal. Most of the ones I associate with are economically right, yet somewhat more relenting when it comes to social policy due to their beliefs in individual liberty/freedom of the individual. A number have socially conservative tendencies, but aside from a few isolated individuals, there's nowhere near the extremist tendencies described in this transcript. Chalk it up to the ABC's bias, yet again.

Reporting racism within the ranks of the NSW young Liberals is hardly bias. It would be perhaps poor reporting to simply ignore it. Singing God Save the Queen while anyone is talking, especially when it is targeted to specifically offend, is something that should be reported so that those who run the young Liberals and make it clear to everyone in the public that future Liberal politicians are not racist bigots who think it is funny or perhaps enlightened to sing God Save The Queen while an Aboriginal person attempts to speak. The ATSI community has enough problems and it doesn’t need boorish morons who run under the name of the Young Liberals to further impede the already dire situation of the ATSI community in Australia. OH and then the racist chants? Charming. If it is proved that they do not share the core values of the Liberal party ie 'The NSW Young Liberals are against racism, sexism and homophobia and actively discourage such attitudes' then they should be ejected from the party or asked not to be known as young Liberals. Pauline got booted from the Liberal party for similar reasons. Why not the young Libs in Ballarat?

I don’t know how many NSW young Liberals you know, but I’m sure you cannot speak for all of them. I’m pretty sure Withoutaface somewhere in this forum has mentioned how many young Liberals have joined the party because of their very conservative social bent and have no knowledge or wish to push neo classical economics.

Imagine if there was no ABC? Australian’s already poor understanding of the social, legal and political system which they actually are a part of would even be less informed. Currently the ABC is the only station that actually gives a serious daily (or whenever parliament is in) rundown of politics in Australia as well as global and local events that actually happen to fit the traditional definition of 'current affairs'. The ABC also has Stateline which is hardly bias. It is often highly critical of the state ALP government and its treatment of hospitals and rail. It ran stories for three weeks about the state government’s handling of the race riots. It ALSO broke the story that the NSW Liberal’s are participating in the ALP practice (!!!) of active factionalism. Doesn't it concern you that certain individuals of the super conservative socially right wing faction within the NSW Liberal Party have control over the party? It must concern you considering you describe yourself as a Liberal who is primarily in the Liberal Party because of your economic views.

I thought you would be concerned when one of your own young Liberal members goes on TV and talks about it.

JOHN STEWART: John Hyde Page is a current member of the NSW Young Liberals and a member of the moderate faction, which has been fighting a losing battle with the right wing of the Young Liberal movement. He's recently published a book detailing systematic branch stacking by the Liberal Party's right faction, led by NSW Upper House member David Clarke. He claims racist attitudes are not uncommon throughout the new, dominant right wing of the NSW Liberal Party.

I any case I would bet that many middle Australian's would know more about dancing on ice than their politicians or their political system.

 

[wheredanton]

Among the students' crimes at the conference was running around chanting, "We're racist, we're sexist, we're homophobic", singing God Save the Queen during a speech about the land's traditional owners, and singing the national anthem during a minute's silence for the stolen generation.

I guess miranda doesnt think there is anything wrong with being racist, homophobic and sexist. Each to their own I guess. I thought in this day and age such views were indefensible.

 

[withoutaface]

The liberal party is a broad church which has a place for people of many different beliefs.

Correct.

It is a conservative party, so it is true that there is no point joining if your main agenda is promoting gay marriage or saving the rainforest - as alex hawke says, the liberal party is not for you.

That's funny, because I support the deinstitutionalisation of marriage, and various other things which are the opposite of what the traditional conservative would, and Alex has not one told me to stop participating in the party, if anything quite the opposite. Have you ever met him? Perhaps you should stop believing everything the SMH tells you.

But the problem exists is where people join the liberal party for a core reason (i.e. economic policy, individualism etc) and dont share the same social policy beliefs of people like Clarke. These people who join for non social policy reasons may be substatially more moderate than Clarke and the right wing faction.

I'm economically ridiculously far right, hence I'm a member of the Right faction.

Whilst there would be no place for these people to come in and change the entire focus of the Liberal party - they should still be entitled to keep the far right in check. If they didn't do that, as someone said earlier, the liberal party wouldn't be where it is today. As Robert Menzies once said, the Liberal Party is for all australians, not just the people who vote for them, but those who vote against them. Unfortunately some of these Far Right beliefs dont hold check with the australian population. Some do, but many dont.

Fallacy, assuming democracy is ultimately correct.

 

[wheredanton]

That's funny, because I support the deinstitutionalisation of marriage, and various other things which are the opposite of what the traditional conservative would, and Alex has not one told me to stop participating in the party, if anything quite the opposite. Have you ever met him? Perhaps you should stop believing everything the SMH tells you.

I believe it was a direct quote from Alex. The SMH didnt do any paraphasing. He said that they Libreal party is not for you if you support the below. He left out gay marriage. But I kinda assume that Alex simply forgot to add it into his list of no no's.

He denounced party moderates, more liberal on social issues. "Nobody joins the Liberal Party to be left-wing," Mr Hawke said. "If you stand for compulsory student unionism, drug-injecting rooms and lowering the [homosexual] age of consent, you can choose the Greens, Labor or the Democrats."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/05/17/1116095964742.html

 

[withoutaface]

Reporting racism within the ranks of the NSW young Liberals is hardly bias. It would be perhaps poor reporting to simply ignore it. Singing God Save the Queen while anyone is talking, especially when it is targeted to specifically offend, is something that should be reported so that those who run the young Liberals and make it clear to everyone in the public that future Liberal politicians are not racist bigots who think it is funny or perhaps enlightened to sing God Save The Queen while an Aboriginal person attempts to speak. The ATSI community has enough problems and it doesn’t need boorish morons who run under the name of the Young Liberals to further impede the already dire situation of the ATSI community in Australia. OH and then the racist chants? Charming. If it is proved that they do not share the core values of the Liberal party ie 'The NSW Young Liberals are against racism, sexism and homophobia and actively discourage such attitudes' then they should be ejected from the party or asked not to be known as young Liberals. Pauline got booted from the Liberal party for similar reasons. Why not the young Libs in Ballarat?

I don’t know how many NSW young Liberals you know, but I’m sure you cannot speak for all of them. I’m pretty sure Withoutaface somewhere in this forum has mentioned how many young Liberals have joined the party because of their very conservative social bent and have no knowledge or wish to push neo classical economics.

Imagine if there was no ABC? Australian’s already poor understanding of the social, legal and political system which they actually are a part of would even be less informed. Currently the ABC is the only station that actually gives a serious daily (or whenever parliament is in) rundown of politics in Australia as well as global and local events that actually happen to fit the traditional definition of 'current affairs'. The ABC also has Stateline which is hardly bias. It is often highly critical of the state ALP government and its treatment of hospitals and rail. It ran stories for three weeks about the state government’s handling of the race riots. It ALSO broke the story that the NSW Liberal’s are participating in the ALP practice (!!!) of active factionalism. Doesn't it concern you that certain individuals of the super conservative socially right wing faction within the NSW Liberal Party have control over the party? It must concern you considering you describe yourself as a Liberal who is primarily in the Liberal Party because of your economic views.

I thought you would be concerned when one of your own young Liberal members goes on TV and talks about it.



I any case I would bet that many middle Australian's would know more about dancing on ice than their politicians or their political system.

They were not representing themselves as Young Liberals, or perhaps they should take on an editorial role on Lateline so that they can stop the media mixing up Liberal students and YL's? Did you hear or see anything from those students mentioning the phrase Young Liberals?

 

[withoutaface]

I believe it was a direct quote from Alex. The SMH didnt do any paraphasing.



http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/05/17/1116095964742.html

1. CSU is an economically left wing perspective, hence fair.
2. Drug injecting rooms are a half baked solution to the drug problem and just create massive inconsitencies in government policy.
3. The homosexual age of consent should not be lowered further, because it's already the same as the heterosexual age, where's the problem?

 

[wheredanton]

They were not representing themselves as Young Liberals, or perhaps they should take on an editorial role on Lateline so that they can stop the media mixing up Liberal students and YL's? Did you hear or see anything from those students mentioning the phrase Young Liberals?

I assumed mainly because the official NSW YL felt the need to make a statement. In any case what are the chances of people who are members of the a university Liberal Party club being members of the young Liberals? Wouldn't YL member also be members of university based Liberal Party Clubs?

...didn't you say once or twice that some to many people join the young libs for the wrong reasons?

2. Drug injecting rooms are a half baked solution to the drug problem and just create massive inconsitencies in government policy.

what about gay marriage? Are you going to tell me that Alex Hawke won't tolerate drug injecting rooms and lowering the age of consent (he may have been talking in the context of when the age of consent for homosexuals was 18, or perhaps he just blind forgot it is 16) but will tolerate gay marriage?

 

[withoutaface]

Given the policy VP of the NSW YL's who was endorsed by Hawke supports complete drug legalisation, deinstitutionalisation of marriage etc, among other things, I think it's safe to say he will.