okay i know for a 100% fact your scenario 1 is wrong due to the fact that i have connections in most top tier IB's and have personally spoken to them about recruitment ( i.e front office senior traders etc) and yes it is 3-5 of work experience in the front office if your accepted into IB cadetship. also you can study com/law while doing the cadetship, they are very flexible with hours and so on. thats debatable whether u lose those 5 yrs, i have 3 friends that have done the UBS cadetship (2 of whom are working front office in ubs now fyi) and they said it was the best decision of their lives. unlike you i have facts that support my argument and what happens in the real world. there are so many people out there that havent completed the cadetships or even spoken to real people that have done them, and rather make up all these myths
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thats great you sound like you have done a lot of research and spoke to a lot of people - now come back and tell me im wrong after you have actually done 3-4 years of it.
I dont need to speak to these "real" people, i am one of them. you are basing everything off hearsay from "connections"
you know... im only telling you guys these things for your own benefit right? trying to cut through the bs you kids hear in recruitment seminars, your "connections",etc
"Best decision in their lives" - thats pretty funny, i swear i've said like 20 times to people myself. but its all bs. HR gives us a script to read for these things.
" Very flexible with hours"- another scripted line i've used hahaha. but one useful point of advice here - dont ever ask about work life balance in the interview, or you are out.
i hope you guys get it.
I dont need to speak to these "real" people, i am one of them. you are basing everything off hearsay from "connections"
you know... im only telling you guys these things for your own benefit right? trying to cut through the bs you kids hear in recruitment seminars, your "connections",etc
"Best decision in their lives" - thats pretty funny, i swear i've said like 20 times to people myself. but its all bs. HR gives us a script to read for these things.
" Very flexible with hours"- another scripted line i've used hahaha. but one useful point of advice here - dont ever ask about work life balance in the interview, or you are out.
i hope you guys get it.
those connections at UBS are actually friends that a socialise with on the weekends, they arent from seminars and dont have scripts from HR, they are giving me their honest opinion. im not out here trying to convince anyone that im right and your wrong or vice versa, im just giving my point of view ha im not asking anyone to believe me. you are definitely wrong about the work life line ha. i know for a fact that you get off time to study for exams, they make you leave the office before 5pm (that is, they dont let u work late hours even if u wanted to).
in my honest opinion, cutting out all the bs, i think those that are genuinly motivated, have the drive and love the work are the ones that are going to succeed. if you are passionate about the work and enjoy it and want to commit your career to it, then who cares how you get into the business, as long as uve got ur foot in the door and they see ur dedication, moving around the firm isnt that difficult at all.
you come with such a negative stance towards IB, just because maybe uve had a bad experience or dont like it or watever it may be, that doesnt mean its the same for everyone else
i agree that those 3-5 yrs are tough, i know, im not denying that. but if you are commiting the next 40, yrs of your life to working in IB, wats 3 years down the track to set up a career for yourself
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im guessing your friends are in backoffice cadetships so the work life balance is probably true (i have never told an intern to go home early unless they were sick or they were fking up so badly they were slowing me down). And its because of this culture clash, a back office cadetship does not get you anywhere nearer to a front office graduate role compared to someone else with other work experience. im saying as i said before in scenario 1, its not getting your foot in the door. you may work for the same company but if anything, you are locking yourself out of IB with these back office roles. Once again, no one would pick a back office transfer over anyone else. its just the ego and mentality of the front office guys. bad luck to your friends and dont follow their path.
I actually have a pretty positive stance on this job compared to the people around me, im one of the 3 remaining guys in my analyst class of 25 to give you a perspective. (theres no one that actually loves it). I want people to know the reality of it and make their own calls as to whether they want to do it or not, given the rewards and the sacrifices. guys who come in here saying passion, dedication, blah blah will carry you through the job is just bs. 40 years in IB? more bs. i just want you guys to get it. im sick of having gung-ho interns and graduates burn out after 3 months because they had too much faith in their "passion" without actually hearing what its really like
I actually have a pretty positive stance on this job compared to the people around me, im one of the 3 remaining guys in my analyst class of 25 to give you a perspective. (theres no one that actually loves it). I want people to know the reality of it and make their own calls as to whether they want to do it or not, given the rewards and the sacrifices. guys who come in here saying passion, dedication, blah blah will carry you through the job is just bs. 40 years in IB? more bs. i just want you guys to get it. im sick of having gung-ho interns and graduates burn out after 3 months because they had too much faith in their "passion" without actually hearing what its really like
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I'm curious, what warrants a 'connection'?
yeh sorry to clarify i meant good balance as a cadet. why bad luck to my friends? they made front office position from back office cadetships, doesnt that completely disprove your agrument?
my dads been in IB for over 20 yrs now and is only just passed mid career. the dedication is a fact, those that move up the ranks are those that are dedicated and have a passion for the work. (40 yrs is a slight exageration, but you catch my drift).
umm by connection i simply mean a friend/collegue/peer (someone you have a relatively close connection with) that works in that job sector
also one other fact your missing is that the UBS cadetship is offering IB cadetships, so if 3-5 yrs IB work experience before applying for a grad job is bad? then im obviously doing the wrong thing
my dads been in IB for over 20 yrs now and is only just passed mid career. the dedication is a fact, those that move up the ranks are those that are dedicated and have a passion for the work. (40 yrs is a slight exageration, but you catch my drift).
umm by connection i simply mean a friend/collegue/peer (someone you have a relatively close connection with) that works in that job sector
also one other fact your missing is that the UBS cadetship is offering IB cadetships, so if 3-5 yrs IB work experience before applying for a grad job is bad? then im obviously doing the wrong thing
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back office cadetship to front office? i call bs lol and even if not, its not on their merits of their back office cadetship. you guys need to get it. back office experience counts for nothing.
your dad doing 20 years and still "mid career"? Should be head of investment banking for a country or head of a product or sector at the very least. if thats his definition of mid career lol. otherwise not sure if we are talking about the same investment banking here. Also if thats true, why bother, your dad's reputation will get you a job automatically whether you want it that way or not.
IB front office cadetships fall into my scenario 2-4.
your dad doing 20 years and still "mid career"? Should be head of investment banking for a country or head of a product or sector at the very least. if thats his definition of mid career lol. otherwise not sure if we are talking about the same investment banking here. Also if thats true, why bother, your dad's reputation will get you a job automatically whether you want it that way or not.
IB front office cadetships fall into my scenario 2-4.
he is head of the sector, by mid career i mean that he wont stop working for atleast another 15 yrs ( it was a time reference not a ranking reference)
and back office to front office isnt bs, its fact with my 2 friends. but it is true they worked their asses off
and just because my dad has a strong position doesnt mean that i automatically gain a position.
and back office to front office isnt bs, its fact with my 2 friends. but it is true they worked their asses off
and just because my dad has a strong position doesnt mean that i automatically gain a position.
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i think you should make your dad make his junior guys tell you how it really is down in the trenches. just to show you how passion alone doesnt really cut it, how your job description doesnt actually match what you do day to day, so you have to ask yourself if fixing formatting, relearning basic math on excel, buying coffee for clients, ordering food for the team,etc is really your passion
although then again given where your dad is, you wont get an honest answer out of anyone.
or you can just ask your dad if he didnt get the bonuses he did, would he still do banking? and put up with the politics he needs to deal with at his level?
I have yet to meet anyone (and i have met many) truely and honestly in scenario 4 who have done it for a while so maybe he might be the first (i assume he wont lie to his own son)
although then again given where your dad is, you wont get an honest answer out of anyone.
or you can just ask your dad if he didnt get the bonuses he did, would he still do banking? and put up with the politics he needs to deal with at his level?
I have yet to meet anyone (and i have met many) truely and honestly in scenario 4 who have done it for a while so maybe he might be the first (i assume he wont lie to his own son)
thats true, he wouldnt be doing the work without the bonuses. listen, i appreciate what your saying and i acknowledge how difficult it can be at the junior levels. but i still believe its the dedication to the work that differentiates people once uve got your foot in the door. and i agree that even he says most of the time its a load of crap, you go through periods of 'on work' where there are deals to be made and there are periods of 'off work' where everything is quiet. during those periods maybe u digress from what you would normally be doing, but otherwise its pretty standard.
ive done quite alot of work experience and although i know its nothing to what working there full time is like, i can get a basic idea, i see the graduates in their little work stations slaving away while the senior guys go out for lunch, i know how tough the first 5 yrs is. but after that, things start looking up.
anyway i think the original argument was about moving from back office to front office and we have gone a little off coarse ha. i still believe that the route from back office to front office is viable, i mean its not ideal, personally i think doing com/law and getting good marks is better then a back office cadetship. however the IB cadetship is extremely valuable and is definately worth going for and will give you the upper hand. in the end it comes down to the individual and what the firm is looking for. criteria changes all the time, just gotta get lucky with your timing i guess
(btw man im not out trying to attack your points, i think that most of them are very valid and i appreciate your input, i realise you have far more knowledge and experience than i have, its just difficult to accept everything when you get so many conflicting views from different people, all of whom have first hand experience. in the end i think it wouldnt hurt to give it a try, you are only locking in for 1 year and it couldnt hurt to take the opportunity could it?)
ive done quite alot of work experience and although i know its nothing to what working there full time is like, i can get a basic idea, i see the graduates in their little work stations slaving away while the senior guys go out for lunch, i know how tough the first 5 yrs is. but after that, things start looking up.
anyway i think the original argument was about moving from back office to front office and we have gone a little off coarse ha. i still believe that the route from back office to front office is viable, i mean its not ideal, personally i think doing com/law and getting good marks is better then a back office cadetship. however the IB cadetship is extremely valuable and is definately worth going for and will give you the upper hand. in the end it comes down to the individual and what the firm is looking for. criteria changes all the time, just gotta get lucky with your timing i guess
(btw man im not out trying to attack your points, i think that most of them are very valid and i appreciate your input, i realise you have far more knowledge and experience than i have, its just difficult to accept everything when you get so many conflicting views from different people, all of whom have first hand experience. in the end i think it wouldnt hurt to give it a try, you are only locking in for 1 year and it couldnt hurt to take the opportunity could it?)
seremify007
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^ mate, just go for it. i would caution you though that your experiences are probably not going to be typical of a normal cadet if your dad is the head honcho of anything.
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im not saying dont do it, hell do it just for the interview experience.
I just want to warn you that the back office cadetship amounts to very little.
and if you truely love it ie scenario 4, it doesnt hurt you to enjoy the carefree life in uni and then jump into it after graduating.
Back to the burnout point, a lot of people mistake their "passion" for banking during university. sure it all sounds awesome when you do those competitions, hear peoples stories, etc and pretend to be a senior banker doing deals. i would be in this category and i think most people fall into this category. but reality hits everyone 3 months in. You have no idea how many times i need to pull a junior analyst aside and brainwash them to not quit. im sure your dad does it more, or not and just fires them lol
I just want to warn you that the back office cadetship amounts to very little.
and if you truely love it ie scenario 4, it doesnt hurt you to enjoy the carefree life in uni and then jump into it after graduating.
Back to the burnout point, a lot of people mistake their "passion" for banking during university. sure it all sounds awesome when you do those competitions, hear peoples stories, etc and pretend to be a senior banker doing deals. i would be in this category and i think most people fall into this category. but reality hits everyone 3 months in. You have no idea how many times i need to pull a junior analyst aside and brainwash them to not quit. im sure your dad does it more, or not and just fires them lol
ill give it a shot and see how it goes, presuming i even get accepted haha. thanks for your opinionYou guys have got me thinking. Should i go for it? I got shortlisted...but so did everyone else at my school who got the first round interviews. Newbie imma PM you. Tell me the inner workings and WHY back office can't make front office.
seremify007
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This guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Leeson
And this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jérôme_Kerviel
That being said I would be interested to hear Newbie's POV on this.
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All im saying is that back office experience counts for very little and is misleading to think that just because you work in the same company and the activity is related in a way that there some easy bridge between front and back office.
Its just totally different things - easier analogy - a waiter and a chef both work in a restaurant. Not saying you cant make it as a chef because you know justin beiber never say never right. but noone is going to care about your waitering skills and your employment chances are the same/less than someone who is fresh out of chef school.
then theres the work culture difference - back office is very chill and awesome but if im hiring a front office guy, i rather pick a keen new guy out of college rather than a back office guy. The last thing an interviewer wants to hear is how you handled a stressful situation in the back office - just an ego thing as i said before
Also think about it from your perspective as a cadet maybe with 2-3 years experience in the back office, you'd expect to start "ahead" of someone else right? nope, you start at zero - pretty unfair right.
so my view is: back office cadetship = good experience, good cash during uni, good choice if you wana end up taking up a similar operations type role after graduating. but my advice would be not to hope too highly that this automatically converts into a front office role.
Theres literally hundreds of keen as fuck comm/law + comm finance honours kids with great academic records, solid work experience (1-2 big 4 internships, 1-2 bank internships, 1-2 law internships, maybe part time in corporate or law firm), real or fake extracurricular leadership activity, case competition experience,etc etc. I dunno if they can walk the walk right but fk i would imagine they sound pretty legit in an interview.
Its just totally different things - easier analogy - a waiter and a chef both work in a restaurant. Not saying you cant make it as a chef because you know justin beiber never say never right. but noone is going to care about your waitering skills and your employment chances are the same/less than someone who is fresh out of chef school.
then theres the work culture difference - back office is very chill and awesome but if im hiring a front office guy, i rather pick a keen new guy out of college rather than a back office guy. The last thing an interviewer wants to hear is how you handled a stressful situation in the back office - just an ego thing as i said before
Also think about it from your perspective as a cadet maybe with 2-3 years experience in the back office, you'd expect to start "ahead" of someone else right? nope, you start at zero - pretty unfair right.
so my view is: back office cadetship = good experience, good cash during uni, good choice if you wana end up taking up a similar operations type role after graduating. but my advice would be not to hope too highly that this automatically converts into a front office role.
Theres literally hundreds of keen as fuck comm/law + comm finance honours kids with great academic records, solid work experience (1-2 big 4 internships, 1-2 bank internships, 1-2 law internships, maybe part time in corporate or law firm), real or fake extracurricular leadership activity, case competition experience,etc etc. I dunno if they can walk the walk right but fk i would imagine they sound pretty legit in an interview.
seremify007
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Interesting point- my only observation on this is that the focus, mentality, risk aversion, focus on compliance and strict adherence to rules/procedure, etc... is very different between back office and front office.
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thats a good point - everyone hates compliance. im always fighting them on documentation requirements. clients just dont like giving over copies of their passports.
who gives a sht if our client sold stuff to iran and north korea - gotta make a living right
who gives a sht if our client sold stuff to iran and north korea - gotta make a living right
Sorry seremify, i fail to see the link between unauthorised speculative trader and progression from back to front office for Nick Leeson. The other guy worked his way up from back-middle office which is impressive.
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seremify007
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It's a bit of an industry joke- but it seems all the best rogue traders were those who had intricate knowledge of back and mid office, and how to take advantage of this to conceal their activity. Nick knew how to hide positions in the accounting records from the auditors and the other guy knew how to play the policies and hide gross positions outside his limits.
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